Bones0
Smash Legend
When he's facing you, sure.
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Important Carefully Ask PPMD about the Tiara Guy
- Thread starter Cactuar
- Start date
TheCrimsonBlur
Smash Master
You get turned around when hit....
- Joined
- Mar 14, 2011
- Messages
- 5,493
Concerning PPU's vids vs Shroomed:
I feel like he jumps way too much against Doc. He gets hit out of a lot of his attempts to set up late fairs. Though perhaps he does that because pills would interrupt him if he tried to work mostly on the ground? Can't really say I know this matchup, though, so maybe he's doing it properly.
I feel like he jumps way too much against Doc. He gets hit out of a lot of his attempts to set up late fairs. Though perhaps he does that because pills would interrupt him if he tried to work mostly on the ground? Can't really say I know this matchup, though, so maybe he's doing it properly.
knightpraetor
Smash Champion
- Joined
- Oct 20, 2005
- Messages
- 2,321
yeah, CC nair is pretty good, but risky depending on the spacing of the nair you may not be able to grab before the shine. I have a hard time deciding whether light shield or CC help me more
what
nah I also feel like PPU jumps too much vs doc(or at least at bad times some). Many people like hopping around with Marth at times which make me cringe though.
Bones0
Smash Legend
I was talking about when they nair past you because you stopped and crouched (or ASDI'd down, really).
Marth's jump is so awesome. I WANT TO HOP, DAMN IT.
S l o X
Smash Champion
yea mike just complains to me about melee 100% of the time we talk about melee. hes still the homie tho and i wish he would go to apex.
crush
Smash Master
Bones0
Smash Legend
That was my idea. 
Dunno why anyone is trying to claim credit over that. Not something to be proud of.
Bones0
Smash Legend
We know you're jelly Cactuar. Just stay out of it.
Sixth-Sense
Smash Ace
When do you guys use or in what situations have you guys used reverse bair? I have a fetish for everything reverse, but with marth it's mostly reverse bair, but i don't have many ideas when or against who. Anybody wanna give some ideas please?
Hellsinglover999
Smash Journeyman
.Chipmunk.
Smash Ace
You can turn around neutral b or go for another bair like the video above or even a reverse fair or even a nair.
TKD+ITA+Mar=
Smash Ace
Ugh, I am trash at this game and need help. I really don't feel like I understand Marth's neutral game at all. Like if someone is dash dancing I feel like I do one of a few stupid things:
(1) Get scared and throw out some random move hoping for some weird reason that they'll just run into it, and then get punished for it afterwards.
(2) Get scared and shield, and then get grabbed.
(3) Try to be smart and charge at them to catch them in their dash dance and then consequently get punished for it.
(1) Get scared and throw out some random move hoping for some weird reason that they'll just run into it, and then get punished for it afterwards.
(2) Get scared and shield, and then get grabbed.
(3) Try to be smart and charge at them to catch them in their dash dance and then consequently get punished for it.
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
If they're not Fox, Falco, Falcon, or another Marth you can probably just dash dance yourself and have a decent advantage over any direct attack they do against you.
TKD+ITA+Mar=
Smash Ace
Hmmm, good point KK. But what about the other cases?
My training partner exclusively plays Falco, which is good in some respects, but I feel like Falco's neutral game is way different than the rest of the cast and I feel lost in this area against most other characters.
My training partner exclusively plays Falco, which is good in some respects, but I feel like Falco's neutral game is way different than the rest of the cast and I feel lost in this area against most other characters.
Bones0
Smash Legend
Falco has lasers instead of speed, so when you're playing other characters, focus on their abuse of speed and ways you can deal with it. A lot of the frame traps that work vs. Falco will not work vs. faster chars who can just run right in and grab/hit you. Also, as a general rule, Falco's retreating movement sucks vs. Marth so if you tend to capitalize on that a lot, don't rely on it as much vs. other characters who can successively avoid Marth's pseudo-desperate run up grabs and dash attacks. You will still want to push forward when they move back, but you have to utilize the threat of your range with moves like dtilt to sort of trap them as opposed to just swinging your sword around as soon as you react to them being within range.
knightpraetor
Smash Champion
- Joined
- Oct 20, 2005
- Messages
- 2,321
Nothing wrong with throwing out moves in front of you hoping they will run into it. ultimately someone isn't dashdancing so much as they are either dashing forward, dashing back, or standing in place. you can throw out moves in one of those 3 spots and if you're correct, you will hit them. Some moves cover more than one spot too.
The bigger issue in your game is probably covering your *** when you miss. start with dtilt and dash attacks since they are the easiest to avoid being punished for missing.
also, attacking people who are dashdancing is pretty good. however, if you know they are punishing you when you go in to catch them in their dash dance then they are obviously cueing their attack off your movement somehow..so now move and bait them instead..
anyway, on another topic..why don't i ever tech with marth.i ask myself this and I think the main issue is that 90% of the time if i use my recovery properly most characters can't hit me except with moves that hit me before i'm close enough to actually walltech...but I really need to start doing this cause there are always those random stocks in tourney when i screw up and drop a stock for free from aiming my up B poorly.
The bigger issue in your game is probably covering your *** when you miss. start with dtilt and dash attacks since they are the easiest to avoid being punished for missing.
also, attacking people who are dashdancing is pretty good. however, if you know they are punishing you when you go in to catch them in their dash dance then they are obviously cueing their attack off your movement somehow..so now move and bait them instead..
anyway, on another topic..why don't i ever tech with marth.i ask myself this and I think the main issue is that 90% of the time if i use my recovery properly most characters can't hit me except with moves that hit me before i'm close enough to actually walltech...but I really need to start doing this cause there are always those random stocks in tourney when i screw up and drop a stock for free from aiming my up B poorly.
Divinokage
Smash Legend
There's everything wrong with this, if you whiff you'll likely get heavily damaged or die. You cant do this type of stuff anymore, players arent slow. If you want to become better than you need to be 100% precise with punishment and moves.
Depends on how much they respect you/you make them respect you.
Also, look at Puff. That character gets away with mad moves sometimes LOL.
Also, look at Puff. That character gets away with mad moves sometimes LOL.
Dart!
Smash Master
Because people are afraid of puff for some reason
They don't understand what she's doing/her conditioning game is weird she has several jumps which isn't traditional.
Bones0
Smash Legend
I find this ironic because I feel like when I watch you play you whiff more than half your moves (but you do it intentionally for frame traps and stuff so it's cool). lol
TKD+ITA+Mar=
Smash Ace
Thanks for the advice and help everyone. I'll definitely make sure I try all this stuff out when I go home for Thanksgiving and play a lot of not-falcos way better than me.
D
Deleted member
Guest
it's true. i strike fear into the hearts of men with kirby.
knightpraetor
Smash Champion
- Joined
- Oct 20, 2005
- Messages
- 2,321
well, predicting movement towards you and attacking is basically throwing out a move in front of you..just aim better instead of timing it poorly is what i meant. Obviously throwing it out blindly is bad, and even prediction may be better served by just responding with movement.
However,
i feel like most players only predict movements away and just use dash back to deal with movements toward them when they could get harder punishes if they were willing to just anticipate the aggressive movement of their opponent.
that undershot dash attack...so good people just don't know
ever since i watched pp camp puff with it I knew. In percents where hitting a dash attack means a 4 hit combo, it can be worth it to undershoot. Of course the value of such things decreases with the speed and strength of the opposing character's dash dance. However, it's a bad idea to respect every char in this game as equal. I used to have a lot more problems with the mid-high tiers cause I treated them all as if they were as fast as fox
However,
i feel like most players only predict movements away and just use dash back to deal with movements toward them when they could get harder punishes if they were willing to just anticipate the aggressive movement of their opponent.
that undershot dash attack...so good people just don't know
ever since i watched pp camp puff with it I knew. In percents where hitting a dash attack means a 4 hit combo, it can be worth it to undershoot. Of course the value of such things decreases with the speed and strength of the opposing character's dash dance. However, it's a bad idea to respect every char in this game as equal. I used to have a lot more problems with the mid-high tiers cause I treated them all as if they were as fast as fox
Bones0
Smash Legend
I wish I were better at respecting the good chars and disrespecting the bad chars. I think I feel like I properly respect good chars and properly disrespect bad chars more with Marth than Falco for some reason though... I also have this issue with players in general. I've lost way too many sets overestimating or underestimating opponents and playing different in stupid ways that are completely unnatural for me.
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
Disrespecting bad chars without a spacing setup (YL bomb approach, Mewtwo's shadow ball trolling, ICs' blizzard [though they're not a bad character], etc) is easy
Defensive dash dance > grab if you're on defense - focus on avoiding their longest approach move
Offensive dash dance > grab if you're on offense - try to force bad sidesteps and keep outside range of thier staple counterattacks and panic attacks
You can also Fair wall (or to catch jumps) if they jump or lack a ranged aerial (like Zelda kick or something) or if you want to bait them in general although this is more of a mixup
Obviously there's more but those three are the staples - SHFFL fair can be a great pressure tool but vs limited characters it often doesn't accomplish more than just keeping them honest about certain movements and dash dance grab will generally be stronger (this is different vs good characters like Fox and stuff because they have shield games and FJ games and stuff)
Don't shield under pressure if you have stage - most bad characters lack the mobility to launch a real offense into your variable movement and have bad defense options if you don't jump when they're getting their counterattack setup. Shield limits Marth way more than his movement does. Even WD back to reposition your DD's launch point is a stronger play because Marth's OOS is basically grab and WD unless they do something silly into it (Fair OOS is super risky for so many reasons vs people that understand it, or it's being used for the same thing as WD back OOS [defensive repositioning]).
Bad characters are Link and lower for the purposes of this post
Good characters are more complicated but in general you're going to be beating spacies by using the punishment disparity, Sheik by not letting her land and dash dancing her ground game, Peach by not letting her set up effectively, and Falcon by hoping you grab him first. Everything else in terms of strategy is just fluff to facilitate those. It's convenient that dash dance grab works effectively vs most of the good characters, but it's not the only thing you have and it pays to have a mixup because they will focus hard on beating dash dance grab. This is where sword comes in.
Defensive dash dance > grab if you're on defense - focus on avoiding their longest approach move
Offensive dash dance > grab if you're on offense - try to force bad sidesteps and keep outside range of thier staple counterattacks and panic attacks
You can also Fair wall (or to catch jumps) if they jump or lack a ranged aerial (like Zelda kick or something) or if you want to bait them in general although this is more of a mixup
Obviously there's more but those three are the staples - SHFFL fair can be a great pressure tool but vs limited characters it often doesn't accomplish more than just keeping them honest about certain movements and dash dance grab will generally be stronger (this is different vs good characters like Fox and stuff because they have shield games and FJ games and stuff)
Don't shield under pressure if you have stage - most bad characters lack the mobility to launch a real offense into your variable movement and have bad defense options if you don't jump when they're getting their counterattack setup. Shield limits Marth way more than his movement does. Even WD back to reposition your DD's launch point is a stronger play because Marth's OOS is basically grab and WD unless they do something silly into it (Fair OOS is super risky for so many reasons vs people that understand it, or it's being used for the same thing as WD back OOS [defensive repositioning]).
Bad characters are Link and lower for the purposes of this post
Good characters are more complicated but in general you're going to be beating spacies by using the punishment disparity, Sheik by not letting her land and dash dancing her ground game, Peach by not letting her set up effectively, and Falcon by hoping you grab him first. Everything else in terms of strategy is just fluff to facilitate those. It's convenient that dash dance grab works effectively vs most of the good characters, but it's not the only thing you have and it pays to have a mixup because they will focus hard on beating dash dance grab. This is where sword comes in.
Tee ay eye
Smash Hero
no no no no
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
Yeah that's basically how to lose with Marth
Vs almost any Marth that does that as a main strategy you can win by waiting outside fair range and dash attacking or grabbing when they miss it
Unless you're playing like Luigi or something similarly horrible (who lacks a good dash attack or fast, forward moving grab out of dash)
Vs almost any Marth that does that as a main strategy you can win by waiting outside fair range and dash attacking or grabbing when they miss it
Unless you're playing like Luigi or something similarly horrible (who lacks a good dash attack or fast, forward moving grab out of dash)
Bones0
Smash Legend
Can you do a post like this for Falco?
Yes, I'm high maintenance. Melee is pretty high maintenance too though, so maybe that's normal.
clowsui
Smash Legend
This just in, the only difference between Bones and Melee is that you don't need a system to turn him on and you certainly don't need a controller to make him going
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
I've never really used Falco with much seriousness so most of my Falco stuff is reverse engineering or building off what PP's posted
I'll try to make a summary. This will probably be wrong in parts but it's just an attempt.
To begin, I think in general people underrate his grabs still (especially vs mediocre characters). People use grab more now than they used to but I think we need even more grabbing because it feeds the conditioning game he can build with his pressure and preys on a lot of common anti-Falco habits. So at the very least it's a good starting strat.
On that note, I think people still use the wrong throws. Falco's best throw by far is u-throw. Most combo potential and best positional advantage. The others have their niches but none of them are better than u-throw > aerial in a vacuum. The combo itself is a really good combo 'cuz Falco's aerials are of the highest quality and it allows you to snap a huge amount of safety onto your pressure string by shine-grabbing into it since most mediocre characters lack good sidesteps and attacks OOS (aside from Bowser - just laser Bowser until he jumps and then **** him).
Aside from that I think just control the stage with laser, emphasize shine and grab as your main "first hit" moves (at least at the start of the match) since they flow into one another and afford high safety when set up by aerial or laser. Laser approach into shine-grab or shine-shine is very effective because they can either action to avoid the shine-grab or hold to beat the 2nd shine but not both. It makes a strong 50-50.
In general, the better the opponent's character, the more Falco's pressure becomes geared towards either maximum frame safety (Sheik, Peach, Marth) or towards spacing around their dangerous, surrounding OOS options (Falco, Fox, Peach). There's no real reason for long strings unless you're trying to catch OOS actions - you can condition people into doing these by mixing in grabs with your pressure (notice how so much of effective pressure hinges on a good grab mixup?). There are timing tricks but they're dangerous until you understand conditioning really well. Again, more reason to base everything off things the opponent can't do much about.
I think dair is best used to attack people's moves, and to lesser degree I feel the same way about bair and u-tilt. Obviously dair is good vs people crouching and other stuff and it's a good initiation tool but I feel using it to constantly initiate encourages people to spam it mindlessly, when it's honestly probably one of his most punishable moves. Its main purpose IMO is to initiate vs people when you've established an opening you can follow with an aerial or if they've done a move for you to hit for free. I'm not a huge fan of throwing them around just because it's a good move. Retreat AC bair is okay as a tactic to get breathing room back, but in general I think Falco wants to mostly attack the opponent's attacks or laser into things to get his hits. If you can make them jump to work around the laser, all you have to do from there is sneak under their move. Easier said than done, but it's a simple strategy that still sees play even today.
Just my 2 cents.
I'll try to make a summary. This will probably be wrong in parts but it's just an attempt.
To begin, I think in general people underrate his grabs still (especially vs mediocre characters). People use grab more now than they used to but I think we need even more grabbing because it feeds the conditioning game he can build with his pressure and preys on a lot of common anti-Falco habits. So at the very least it's a good starting strat.
On that note, I think people still use the wrong throws. Falco's best throw by far is u-throw. Most combo potential and best positional advantage. The others have their niches but none of them are better than u-throw > aerial in a vacuum. The combo itself is a really good combo 'cuz Falco's aerials are of the highest quality and it allows you to snap a huge amount of safety onto your pressure string by shine-grabbing into it since most mediocre characters lack good sidesteps and attacks OOS (aside from Bowser - just laser Bowser until he jumps and then **** him).
Aside from that I think just control the stage with laser, emphasize shine and grab as your main "first hit" moves (at least at the start of the match) since they flow into one another and afford high safety when set up by aerial or laser. Laser approach into shine-grab or shine-shine is very effective because they can either action to avoid the shine-grab or hold to beat the 2nd shine but not both. It makes a strong 50-50.
In general, the better the opponent's character, the more Falco's pressure becomes geared towards either maximum frame safety (Sheik, Peach, Marth) or towards spacing around their dangerous, surrounding OOS options (Falco, Fox, Peach). There's no real reason for long strings unless you're trying to catch OOS actions - you can condition people into doing these by mixing in grabs with your pressure (notice how so much of effective pressure hinges on a good grab mixup?). There are timing tricks but they're dangerous until you understand conditioning really well. Again, more reason to base everything off things the opponent can't do much about.
I think dair is best used to attack people's moves, and to lesser degree I feel the same way about bair and u-tilt. Obviously dair is good vs people crouching and other stuff and it's a good initiation tool but I feel using it to constantly initiate encourages people to spam it mindlessly, when it's honestly probably one of his most punishable moves. Its main purpose IMO is to initiate vs people when you've established an opening you can follow with an aerial or if they've done a move for you to hit for free. I'm not a huge fan of throwing them around just because it's a good move. Retreat AC bair is okay as a tactic to get breathing room back, but in general I think Falco wants to mostly attack the opponent's attacks or laser into things to get his hits. If you can make them jump to work around the laser, all you have to do from there is sneak under their move. Easier said than done, but it's a simple strategy that still sees play even today.
Just my 2 cents.
Bones0
Smash Legend
Melee turns me on, I turn on Melee, and we never get tired of each other. It's the perfect relationship...
So I don't laser or grab enough. TELL ME SOMETHING I DON'T KNOW. UGH!
TKD+ITA+Mar=
Smash Ace
This was amazingly insightful and helpful. Thank you very much KirbyKaze as this probably would have taken me an abhorrently long time to figure out on my own. It's really quite fortunate that there are experienced players like you who take the time out of their day to help the new players in this game.
/sorry for being sappy, but this was really ****ing helpful.
Tee ay eye
Smash Hero
Divinokage
Smash Legend
Thats because her hitbox is ********, you can't challenge it very effectively and she can easily whiff without getting punished. In b4 Falco.
Well i don't think anyone can get 100% accuracy when they finished a game because that would mean they pretty much 0-deathed the opponent every stock without missing. I usually get 25-35% and normally those whiffs are to cover options ya, especially off-stage. On-stage I try to be as accurate as possible but with an opponent in the mix then it's pretty damn hard because he can make you whiff too.
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
Her hitbox is a line.
I don't have anything to add to that.
I don't have anything to add to that.
knightpraetor
Smash Champion
- Joined
- Oct 20, 2005
- Messages
- 2,321
i dunno. i feel like while obviously missing a shffl fair/nair in their face is pretty bad..whiffing a rising aerial or a dash attack is not nearly as big a deal. properly spaced dash attack has an extra cm or so of range so even if they are dashdancing it's not easy to make you miss even if you throw the move in front of them. rising fairs leave you with options even when you do miss as do falling fairs against most of the cast other than sheik, falcon, fox ( and i guess falco).
it seems way too set and dry to say that predicting a dash forward and swinging at it even though they could dash dance back is always going to be worse. There are many times when the opponent can only get an aerial or two on their punish and you may need only one hit to finish. vs fox or falco probably just running in and grabbing is better since it slides and you are likely to grab them even if they dash back unless they dash back before you close, but vs pikachu and the like I would rather have a better setup off an aerial..and pikachu isn't that fast anyway. I'm not advocating missing on purpose, I'm just saying that aiming in front of an opponent's moving body is basically the same as throwing out moves. It's just better aimed moves. also, anyone who whiffs an aerial and then pivot grabs when the fox comes in is basically throwing out a move in front of the fox's face as well as the fox could just bait the pivot grab and wreck you. The only real question is when it's worth throwing out a move like that. Obviously moves that are more susceptible to baits aren't as good for basing your whole strategy around, but all the slow char can't do jack about your fair wall anyway so why not predict their movement forward occasionally. When you miss what are they going to do that is so scary that you can't risk whiffing. you can still dtilt, uptilt, jab, dash, etc.
anyway i should have qualified my statement earlier. I was really mostly thinking about undershot dash attacks earlier..obviously whiffing aerials in their face is pretty bad unless they are in the non-fast tier
it seems way too set and dry to say that predicting a dash forward and swinging at it even though they could dash dance back is always going to be worse. There are many times when the opponent can only get an aerial or two on their punish and you may need only one hit to finish. vs fox or falco probably just running in and grabbing is better since it slides and you are likely to grab them even if they dash back unless they dash back before you close, but vs pikachu and the like I would rather have a better setup off an aerial..and pikachu isn't that fast anyway. I'm not advocating missing on purpose, I'm just saying that aiming in front of an opponent's moving body is basically the same as throwing out moves. It's just better aimed moves. also, anyone who whiffs an aerial and then pivot grabs when the fox comes in is basically throwing out a move in front of the fox's face as well as the fox could just bait the pivot grab and wreck you. The only real question is when it's worth throwing out a move like that. Obviously moves that are more susceptible to baits aren't as good for basing your whole strategy around, but all the slow char can't do jack about your fair wall anyway so why not predict their movement forward occasionally. When you miss what are they going to do that is so scary that you can't risk whiffing. you can still dtilt, uptilt, jab, dash, etc.
anyway i should have qualified my statement earlier. I was really mostly thinking about undershot dash attacks earlier..obviously whiffing aerials in their face is pretty bad unless they are in the non-fast tier