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Important Carefully Ask PPMD about the Tiara Guy

clowsui

Smash Legend
Joined
Feb 14, 2007
Messages
10,184
Location
Chapel Hill, NC
That's not bad at ALL. I expected PP to do way worse for his first time Marth usage vs Mango, even if it was on FD.

One nation, one PP. Next stop is ROM, then APEX. GET 'EM KID!!!

edit:

Also **** Mango. John-packed *****. Warm-up johns are bull****. He was apparently playing well enough to make it to WF and beat PP there.
 

Habefiet

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Nov 22, 2011
Messages
442
Location
Minneapolis, MN
Shoutouts to Tai for being the first player in who knows how long to knock Ken out of tournament.

Shoutouts to Ken for being Ken.

Shoutouts to PP for being a boss and clutching out victory despite looking like you wanted to kill yourself up until the very moment that you actually won the tournament. You are the King of Cali. :D

Someone's going to ask eventually, so I might as well be that guy and do it--PP, once vids are up, will you talk about your Marth match with Mango's Falco at all? Any thoughts on it? Any thoughts on where your Marth is going in the future, whether we'll see it at ROM/Apex, etc.?
 

knightpraetor

Smash Champion
Joined
Oct 20, 2005
Messages
2,321
when will the vids be out? i quit watching after ken got knocked out early. I expected as much, but the hype of the rest of the tournament couldn't possibly compare to watching ken play, so I figured I should end on that note.

I still maintain that ken solidly outplayed toph and would have easily won with a little knowledge of how to edgeguard and finish.
 
D

Deleted member

Guest
but he didn't so

no johns

ken knew what he was walking into probably much better than any of his opponents did
 

knightpraetor

Smash Champion
Joined
Oct 20, 2005
Messages
2,321
oh i'm aware that he legitly lost..i just think that he could easily get back into melee if he wanted to. 1month with a decent marth main explaining to him some of the changes in the game and enough practice and he would be placing in the money again.

He also played much better in the matchups that didn't require as much speed and technical precision.

Anyway, I thought I heard that PP went marth some in this tourney but i didn't see that while scrolling through the stream.

edit: seems it was one match rather than a set. Anyone mind telling me set and and match number?
 

knightpraetor

Smash Champion
Joined
Oct 20, 2005
Messages
2,321
lol, yeah according to ken every matchup is hard for marth. He didn't put out many numbers, but i'm guessing based on what he said there and previously back when he was in his prime that in his head it is something like

marth fox 50:50
marth falco 45:55
marth sheik 40:60
marth peach 45:55
marth jiggs ?
marth pikachu 35:65

damn, we have it rough..better switch mains now.

I do have to say that that tourney really made me question the wisdom of even bothering to learn marth pikachu when I could just learn peach pikachu instead. I would rather not have to deal with low percent kills and low percent gimps..one is one thing, but both seems kind of rough
 

Niko45

Smash Master
Joined
Apr 16, 2008
Messages
3,220
Location
Westchester, NY
I mean, Taj and others have said things like it's slight pika favor, just that its sorta a randomly tricky marth matchup. But ken said he would just forfeit lol

holy **** that WF game 3 PP gets a crazy reset off a weak up air. I had to watch that like 10 times I've never seen that before. Mind blown.
 

Niko45

Smash Master
Joined
Apr 16, 2008
Messages
3,220
Location
Westchester, NY
Slaps a nice bit of irony on that old argument that marths just need to go back in time and play like ken or post links to ken beating mango at evo

edit - just to clarify I don't cosign the stuff ken was saying LOL
 

Jun.

Smash Lord
Joined
Dec 17, 2007
Messages
1,797
Location
UC San Diego
You guys know

Marth can just camp right

probably would add 5-15% to all of his matchup estimates.

but no one likes to admit to camping cause everyone who plays this game are a bunch of idiots
 

knightpraetor

Smash Champion
Joined
Oct 20, 2005
Messages
2,321
camping the ledge only works against people who can be gimped..if you mean camping in general, everyone in the high tiers can punish someone dashing away if he never commits to attacks.

blind aggression and continual camping are extremely bad in this game unless the opponent doesn't know the timings to punish someone who fails to commit or doesn't understand how to eat up space from people dashdance/SHing

I used to think falcon's could just dashdance camp marth and it would solve all their problems. But while dashdance camping is still one of falcon's better tools vs marth it doesn't work if it gets predicted.

Most marths at high level are completely aware of how to camp. They also know that attempting camp for more than 3 seconds in a row against PP is a bad idea cause he will come in and wreck you over and over and over OR eat up a little space Pew pew some and then dashdance in circles around you laugh as you run out of space to run away and then wreck you.

only matchup i can think of where it is even remotely safe for marth to continually camp is vs jiggs and even then I think you will lose playing that way..you just won't lose as badly as in the rest of the matchups
 

Jun.

Smash Lord
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Dec 17, 2007
Messages
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UC San Diego
This game is about camping

not really flat out running away and shooting lasers camping

but waiting for the opponent and reacting camping.

look what happened in Mango vs Armada

That's the main reason Marth moved down is because his killing potential from camping has been lost in comparison to other characters.
 

knightpraetor

Smash Champion
Joined
Oct 20, 2005
Messages
2,321
well if that's what you mean by camping i'm pretty sure most of us aim to play as reactively as possible. I don't really think any of the top marths are running in blindly aggressive.

also i seem to be back in form finally. like 90% of my peak skill two months ago. Now if only my college loan gets approved so i have some more cash to go to tourneys lol

I really want to go to apex and try to make it out of pools
 

Vegard

Smash Lord
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Apr 22, 2005
Messages
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Location
Oslo, Norway
PP!

what do you think about westballz' claims stating Mango was just ***ing around during grand finals, and letting you win???
 
D

Deleted member

Guest
PP!

what do you think about westballz' claims stating Mango was just ***ing around during grand finals, and letting you win???
getting your *** combo'd 0-80 every stock is a good way to let your opponent win. tell mango that it was a very classy thing for him to do.
 

Tee ay eye

Smash Hero
Joined
Jun 1, 2008
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AZ
i made this write-up on spacing for noobs at my school that i want to get into this game, but i guess i might as well copy paste it for you guys too, in case anyone is interested in reading it. i doubt most of you guys would learn much from reading it because, as i said, it was geared towards new players.

to understand spacing, you have to understand that the positioning of both characters determines what options are more viable/less viable to each player.

having good spacing essentially means that you know enough about the game to make decisions based on positioning. although this next thing is an oversimplification that can encourage you to space mindlessly and not think about anything else, it sometimes helps to break it down into good ranges and bad ranges for each character.

for example, let's look at marth vs fox. whenever fox is INSIDE marth's sword range, it's definitely good for fox. he can shine and do a bunch of other silly nonsense </hate fox> and marth is able to.... block, grab, swing pathetically (since all of marth's ground moves are weak as **** at close range), or get the **** away (or some combination of these). whenever marth is at full sword range, he has his entire array available to him, pretty much, and it's all (relatively) safe to use..... and since nobody else in the game has marth's range (except ganondorf, to an extent), this would be a good range for marth. fox, on the other hand, has a good range right outside of marth's sword because at that range, he has his running shffl nair (and dash attack, among other things) available to him, and there's not much that marth can do except take risky swings hoping fox is going to run into it. if you are in a bad range, you still have options, but they're limited in one way or another. for example, if fox is right outside marth's range, there's nothing in the game's code STOPPING marth from moving up and trying to hit fox....

well, now that we've gone over looking at ranges themselves, we can talk about how they come into play. smash is a ridiculously dynamic game with really quick movement and tons of possibilities, so movement, prediction, tricking your opponent, covering multiple options with prediction/reaction, understanding minute details about a situation, knowing obscure situational options for each range, and a bunch of other things are how you play around these ranges being the be-all, end-all of the game.

movement in smash accomplishes a lot of things. for example, one of the first things that separates a competitive noob from a COMPLETE noob is understanding how dashdancing can be used as bait. put very simply, when you dash at your opponent at a certain range, it makes it look like you're going to run at them. this gets them scared and makes them want to swing. if they swing and miss (or if they swing and hit your shield at a certain spacing), then they will be in punishable lag. if they are in punishable lag.... well, punish them. if they DON'T SWING and keep moving around instead, then you're able to advance on them by committing to attacking them or by simply continuing to move aggressively until you push them to the edge (literally and figuratively). you can either keep pushing until they're trapped by the stage's edge, or you can push them to sanity's edge until they do something stupid that you can punish.

everyone that plays this game with the smallest iota of seriousness understands this previous paragraph to some degree, whether they realize it or not. a lot of smash skill is/can be subconscious and intuitive.

as i said, this is what separates a competitive noob from a COMPLETE noob.... so how do you get better than other people who also understand this? there are so many ways to gain advantages over other players that i don't even want to explain it, really. you just have to play the game a lot and learn more about it. for example, understanding minute details in the neutral game, having a good understanding of player/character tendencies, being experienced enough to make decisions naturally and react quickly, having better mechanics than your opponent, and tons upon tons upon tons upon tons more.

this may sound like waaaayyyy too much work to be putting into a video game.

my rebuttal? it is. the price and reward of learning to play smash at a competitive level is definitely not worth it on paper, but i still don't regret it one bit.

why? it's not all about the game itself. it's about the experiences i've encountered from playing this game. these past five and a half years have been a hell of a ride, and it doesn't look like it's stopping anytime soon. i've had so many unforgettable experiences, met a metric ****ton of amazing people, been a part of a fun and lively community that spans across multiple continents, traveled to other states, learned a lot about myself and about life, and grew SOOOOOOOO MUCH as a person. keep in mind, MOST OF THIS was while being a high school student who still lived with his parents.... and i was able to do ALL OF THIS while being able to have fun with my favorite game in the world.

thanks for reading. and if you're interested in taking this game more seriously (whether you want to legitimately become a top dog or if you just want to pick up a few video game skillz for fun), may the odds be ever in your favor.
 

Mahie

Smash Lord
Joined
Aug 18, 2007
Messages
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Location
Lille, France
"continuing to move aggresively"

You heard it here folks. Camp that ****.
Marth gets the best results by baiting and keeping the opponent in check, in my opinion. Camping will eventually lead to you being cornered and against spacies you're going to have to either gamble your way out of it (and in the long run it won't be worth it, unless you read really well), or you'll just get hit and hard comboed.

You should be more specific because camping doesn't really define anything at all with such a reactionary character.
 

Tee ay eye

Smash Hero
Joined
Jun 1, 2008
Messages
5,635
Location
AZ
hm

remember when i said i had a good 5-game marth ditto set with tony?

turns out i didnt upload it yet

stupid tai is stupid LOL
 

Dr Peepee

Thanks for Everything <3
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BRoomer
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Someone's going to ask eventually, so I might as well be that guy and do it--PP, once vids are up, will you talk about your Marth match with Mango's Falco at all? Any thoughts on it? Any thoughts on where your Marth is going in the future, whether we'll see it at ROM/Apex, etc.?
I will certainly talk about the match, but I will also say I am extremely disappointed with it. If someone could post/link the match when it goes up, that would be really appreciated. =)

Oh, and my Marth will be using much more interesting WD movement people have yet to see in the future. That's all I can really say atm because it is my only method of moving forward now.

ROM Marth will likely be for MMs or maybe GFs if I'm up in set count depending on my opponent, and Apex it's very uncertain because he will likely improve a lot before then since I'll be home playing Twitch a month prior.

PP!

what do you think about westballz' claims stating Mango was just ***ing around during grand finals, and letting you win???
I'd go with the very realistic answer that pp does not give a ****
#mangonation


I've got stuff I could say that could put him to shame, but I honestly don't care about stooping to that level anymore. I have pride in all of my matches, the good and the bad.

Let them be, I'll show up to play and not talk at Apex as well.




Anyway, a Marth trick I learned vs Falco that also helped me in the ditto since I solved a lot of it through Mango study lies in the understanding of the laser. Falco can act before and after the laser and only wants to laser at a certain "safe" spacing that's farther than a dashing SH Nair usually. So, dashing in and attacking before a laser/trading with a laser is one way of dealing with them, as well as dashing away/WD'ing OOS after taking/shielding a laser. This can greatly offset Falco's spacing and open him up to easy grabs using either method.

While approaching: WD in jab to grab on Falco's surprised shield. Dash attack when Falco starts to laser(the M2K).

While retreating: an easy grab/shield grab/possibly attack on Falco's altered L-cancel timing or aerial lag.

Adding semi-consistent powershielding into the mix makes this guessing game even harder for Falco to manipulate and easier for Marth to manipulate.
 

Tee ay eye

Smash Hero
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Jun 1, 2008
Messages
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AZ
#mangonation


I've got stuff I could say that could put him to shame, but I honestly don't care about stooping to that level anymore. I have pride in all of my matches, the good and the bad.

Let them be, I'll show up to play and not talk at Apex as well.

now i remember why i cheered for you all tournament (exception of axe)


Anyway, a Marth trick I learned vs Falco that also helped me in the ditto since I solved a lot of it through Mango study lies in the understanding of the laser. Falco can act before and after the laser and only wants to laser at a certain "safe" spacing that's farther than a dashing SH Nair usually. So, dashing in and attacking before a laser/trading with a laser is one way of dealing with them, as well as dashing away/WD'ing OOS after taking/shielding a laser. This can greatly offset Falco's spacing and open him up to easy grabs using either method.
didn't i post something to this effect like, a month or two ago? FRAUD KEVIN IS FRAUD

jk <3
 
D

Deleted member

Guest
Let them be, I'll show up to play and not talk at Apex as well.
dude that's boring, i'm going to **** talk everyone. other players, my friends, you, myself mid-match, the spanish kids that won't even understand me, little kids in public that are afraid to swear back at me, really nice people that just tolerate it, anyone really man.

i'm going in like gary oak, no holes barred.

meanwhile, you should learn to keep your beard at the length that maximizes your power level. that's important somehow.
 

Jun.

Smash Lord
Joined
Dec 17, 2007
Messages
1,797
Location
UC San Diego
To TAI though,

I saw you vs Peach doing Fthrow -> dsmash killing her upward. Can you elaborate on that? One of the neatest things I've seen in a while.
 

Mahie

Smash Lord
Joined
Aug 18, 2007
Messages
1,067
Location
Lille, France
To TAI though,

I saw you vs Peach doing Fthrow -> dsmash killing her upward. Can you elaborate on that? One of the neatest things I've seen in a while.
This actually works on spacies if they DI away and do not buffer anything.

They can escape Fthrow --> Fthrow by rolling or shining or whatever, but if they just DI away you can definitely go for Fthrow --> Fthrow --> Dsmash which can give unexpected results especially close to the edge when you would have normally used dtilt and they were maybe DIing up + away. ( Works at low %).

On Falcon you can do it from 0% too (Fthrow --> Fthrow --> Dsmash) and that allows for a quick 20%, which is when you start to be able to do more out of your grabs. I'm not sure how legit it is, though, and if you're going to do it I think it needs to be on a platform or a ledge, on ground zero they'll probably recover faster than you and you won't be able to techchase, sadly.

So yeah, a bit gimmicky but can be pulled off on FFers. I'm not sure about Peach and I'll let Tai answer that but it does sound a little too good to be true, I guess it's also a mix-up/gimmick.
 
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