Important Carefully Ask PPMD about the Tiara Guy

[Dr Peepee]

You are such a badass, PP.

okay practice, whatever LOL

I just parrot phrases sometimes

 

[Bones0]

Slightly less badass, but I still look forward to it. ^_^

[COLLAPSE=No Marth mains allowed]Also, secret Falco discussion comment, but I want to see where Falco's PSing game can be taken. Marth's dash away PS kinda sucks because of his lack of followups, but Falco being able to turn around while PSing is actually a bonus since his *** is one of his greatest assets. You could PS-stop into:
- RSHL (Falco's version of SHDL?!)
- WD towards utilt
- WD towards shine
- Simple bair

Also, I can't believe all you Marth mains read this when I clearly said not to![/COLLAPSE]

 

[Beat!]

My curiosity got the better of me! I'm so sorry, Bones!

(also, while dash away PS might be a bit overrated by some, it definitely doesn't "kinda suck")

 

[Bones0]

Yeah, I guess I should have said something more along the lines of it having limitations due to the fact that Marth prefers to face his opponent. Being able to PS and immediately SH to fair on hit-confirm or threaten with a late fair if they held shield is awesome, but you can't really do the same thing with a bair or dair after a dash back. Maybe they could work though. I actually haven't seen anyone try something like that so maybe the PSed laser would wreak enough havoc to let you get away with it.

 

[Beat!]

WD --> grab is pretty cool. Should be used sparingly if the opponent knows how to deal with PSing, though.

You shouldn't go for a punish every time, either way. Sometimes you'll have to settle for just disrupting Falco's rhythm/movement.

 

[Mahie]

I don't know, actually it's true you powershield a lot, but your crouching makes it telegraphed, a bit of dash away and shield (Leffen's way) it's much more reliable overall, and gives you even better results because it works for lasers at any height.

If you can react to Falco's gun coming out, and be quick and smooth on your movement after the powershield, you actually get to use a pseudo-dash dance; it gives Marth a solid tool in the neutral game, and most Falcos really can't do **** and just get wrecked.

You don't need to spend your time sitting though, you can crouch on reaction after assessing the laser height.

Dashing away + Shield is also a good technique, I agree. Since you're moving in the same direction as the laser, it makes it that much easier to PS since the laser will be relatively slower.

 

[Bones0]

I think people are delusional when they say they are reacting to the actual lasers, but reacting to laser heights? PLEASE...

 

[Divinokage]

I think people are delusional when they say they are reacting to the actual lasers, but reacting to laser heights? PLEASE...

I think you are delusional if you think some people aren't capable of doing this, it's not that fast.

 

[Mahie]

I think people are delusional when they say they are reacting to the actual lasers, but reacting to laser heights? PLEASE...

What's the big deal with that ?

Just think of them as two different entities :

Type A Laser (Above crouch) : Down+Shield

Type B Laser (Below crouch) : Away+Shield

 

[Bones0]

I just think lasers are way too fast. I can laser-laser-empty hop and the opponent will shield every time. I'd love to see any video of someone reacting to lasers and mixup laser heights though.

 

[Divinokage]

You don't react to the laser itself, you react to the sound at least that's how it should be done.

 

[MT_]

How does the sound tell you the height of the laser?

 

[Divinokage]

Well if you know when the laser comes out due to the sound then your eyes should tell you how high the laser is.. it's not that complicated is it?

 

[MT_]

What if Falco begins to shoot a laser and then fast falls so early that the laser doesn't actually come out but the sound of his gun cocking comes out? Then reacting based on sound will just screw you over! You will try to powershield something that isn't even there and then you are stuck in shield with no reflected laser to help you win the neutral game...

 

[Divinokage]

Well if you see him already too low for a laser, why would you shield anyway? Anyhow.. I dont think I can explain it...

If you see the same thing a million times, how can you not be able to expect it in advance let's say?

 

[Deleted member]

I think you are delusional if you think some people aren't capable of doing this, it's not that fast.

capability doesn't imply that they're actually doing it. you have much better things to be doing than trying to react to a laser height.

 

[AustinRC]

Okay so what does the neutral game look like vs Pikachu? Could someone drop some knowledge on me with this particular matchup?

 

[MT_]

What if Falco's control over his laser height isn't that good and thus it's sporadic and random? He might shoot a high laser, low laser, or maybe not even shoot a laser at all, and each variant is done completely outside of his intention because he's not that good at controlling exactly what height he wants his laser to be at. Then you can't predict his laser height and can't expect a certain thing to happen.

 

[OverLord]

I just think lasers are way too fast. I can laser-laser-empty hop and the opponent will shield every time. I'd love to see any video of someone reacting to lasers and mixup laser heights though.

I can assure you that I can easily react to the laser coming out, it's fairly easy actually (ask SFAT if you don't trust me, he had his share of powershields from me); if you're trying to fake a SHL with an empty hop, you will be punished. I would just see no gun coming out during the rising part of the hop, so I would probably just gain space or whatever, depending on the situation and the position.

You can obviously bait a shield in many other ways, but this way is absolutely not reliable IMO.

If you try instead to interrupt the laser animation FFalling the SHL, I'd just dash back at you, seeing no laser coming at me, probably with a DashAttack/DTilt, maybe FTilt if you're close to the edge.

 

[knightpraetor]

so i am mad rusty at this game at marth for not playing him more than a dozen hours in the last month but one thing I noticed while getting wrecked this past weekend is that falcos other than PP are really bad at lasers...use laser, apply pressure, dash dance funnily at such a wide spacing such that you free marth from pressure..repeat. Lose stage space, laser some more, approach from laser..this seems to be the standard cycle I saw.

also, ftilt is better than Fsmash..this is the biggest thing I noticed watching PP's marth today..that and weak upair onstage to sh dfair off stage is a good way to carry opponent's like ganon/falcon that are recovering over you when you on the ledge.

Also...I heard that sypher said i was going to a tourney in nova this weekend but it's still not confirmed.

We will see. I should probably get back up to a reasonable speed in thiis game first

 

[Dr Peepee]

Slightly less badass, but I still look forward to it. ^_^

[COLLAPSE=No Marth mains allowed]Also, secret Falco discussion comment, but I want to see where Falco's PSing game can be taken. Marth's dash away PS kinda sucks because of his lack of followups, but Falco being able to turn around while PSing is actually a bonus since his *** is one of his greatest assets. You could PS-stop into:
- RSHL (Falco's version of SHDL?!)
- WD towards utilt
- WD towards shine
- Simple bair

Also, I can't believe all you Marth mains read this when I clearly said not to![/COLLAPSE]

thought you were sarcasm'ing me haha =p

I think Falco's forward PS is fine since he can laser out of it or Dair if he's close enough or do that silly Mango drift Nair pressure thing, but yeah if Falcos get good enough with PS'ing then WD'ing in would be tight. WD in shine turnaround grab LMAOOOO what an awesome character.

Anyway, I never understood the hate for Marth's dash away PS. It's still freaking good, consistent, and Marth's WD range is huge. This leaves him plenty of options including turnaround grab, jab, Dtilt, Ftilt, whatever. He can keep dashing WTF that is awesome. Being able to PS out of a DD is amazing no matter how you slice it imo so you could even start manipulating the Falco by DD'ing into a run up shield and mess with the Falco trying a PS counter if you get consistent enough with PS'ing.

Freaking this character fhdgljghj hype

so i am mad rusty at this game at marth for not playing him more than a dozen hours in the last month but one thing I noticed while getting wrecked this past weekend is that falcos other than PP are really bad at lasers...use laser, apply pressure, dash dance funnily at such a wide spacing that you free marth from pressure..repeat. Lose stage space, laser some more, approach from laser..this seems to be the standard cycle I saw.

also, ftilt is better than Fsmash..this is the biggest thing I noticed watching PP's marth today..that and weak upair onstage to sh dfair off stage is a good way to carry opponent's like ganon/falcon that are recovering over you when you on the ledge.

Also...I heard that sypher said i was going to a tourney in nova this weekend but it's still not confirmed.

We will see. I should probably get back up to a reasonable speed in thiis game first

nooooo my tricksssss

but yeah GGs dude =)

 

[Tee ay eye]

@bones:

i don't think falco's dash away PS is as good as marth's. errrrrr.... i mean, i don't think it's area of effect is as big. marth HELLA leans forward when he does his dash, and i don't think falco does so much. although i'll agree with you that falco's followups out of it are way easier/probably better

 

[OverLord]

Anyway, I never understood the hate for Marth's dash away PS. It's still freaking good, consistent, and Marth's WD range is huge. This leaves him plenty of options including turnaround grab, jab, Dtilt, Ftilt, whatever. He can keep dashing WTF that is awesome. Being able to PS out of a DD is amazing no matter how you slice it imo so you could even start manipulating the Falco by DD'ing into a run up shield and mess with the Falco trying a PS counter if you get consistent enough with PS'ing.

Freaking this character fhdgljghj hype

Thanks Kevin.

At least I'm not the only one thinking it's an amazing tool.

 

[Bones0]

thought you were sarcasm'ing me haha =p

I think Falco's forward PS is fine since he can laser out of it or Dair if he's close enough or do that silly Mango drift Nair pressure thing, but yeah if Falcos get good enough with PS'ing then WD'ing in would be tight. WD in shine turnaround grab LMAOOOO what an awesome character.

Anyway, I never understood the hate for Marth's dash away PS. It's still freaking good, consistent, and Marth's WD range is huge. This leaves him plenty of options including turnaround grab, jab, Dtilt, Ftilt, whatever. He can keep dashing WTF that is awesome. Being able to PS out of a DD is amazing no matter how you slice it imo so you could even start manipulating the Falco by DD'ing into a run up shield and mess with the Falco trying a PS counter if you get consistent enough with PS'ing.

Freaking this character fhdgljghj hype

I was consciously aware of how sarcastic that sounded, so I added the "PP" to try to sound more sincere. Of course it failed, but I guess that's what I get for being sarcastic 24/7.

Maybe I just suck at turning around after the WD. I tend to shy away from simple turn arounds, so maybe that will be the next thing I try to incorporate.

@bones:

i don't think falco's dash away PS is as good as marth's. errrrrr.... i mean, i don't think it's area of effect is as big. marth HELLA leans forward when he does his dash, and i don't think falco does so much. although i'll agree with you that falco's followups out of it are way easier/probably better

Oh yeah, I know it's not as good, but it still seems easier than dashing towards the laser.

 

[knightpraetor]

ROM was kind of sad, but there is no way around it. Even if you force people to register only one char for tourney so that they can't switch to secondaries they would still just sandbag the matches and split if they wanted. Though I guess if they did that and made obvious sandbagging grounds for DQ then the fans might at least believe the match was legit.

But realistically nothing will happen. This happens in all sports

Though this kind of thing is also going to kill melee. But M2k doesn't win much money from melee anymore so he doesn't care. PP would have little reason to do something like this cause he knows that if people stop playing or watching the game he won't even have the chance to win tournaments or money

 

[ShroudedOne]

Hbox/Armada will be the last thing that kills Melee, imo, if this stuff happens.

 

[Dart!]

Melee is dying because the best players are losing interest and new players aren't getting good enough to beat the current best. Plus the new people can't handle losing enough to get better so they quit

 

[Dr Peepee]

NO GUYS DON'T FALCO THREAD THIS ONE TOO OH MY GOSH

I really like jab vs Falco when I can set it up. Forces most of them to freeze up/shield which makes for intense pressure.

Also I suck at getting the CG down around 17-22% on Falco or something(keep getting shined). Should I just end it early or am I missing some information?

 

[clowsui]

IIRC it's best to start raw CG attempts from 23 onwards, it's like sheik ftilt in brawl (start at 32)

 

[ShroudedOne]

17-23, can't you pivot grab there? I thought that was how you handled no DI > shine out.

 

[MT_]

I'm fairly sure you can do non-pivot regrab before shine comes out between at least 17-21ish (I forget if the percents are before the throw or after the throw), but you DO have to (very) slightly delay the grab or else Falco will be too high for the grab box to actually get him. It's possible that you're grabbing too early and it looks like he is shining you out of grab when your grab simply whiffed instead. At those percents it's also possible to pivot grab to ensure not getting shined but the timing is incredibly tight, so I would wait until about 21+% to start pivot grabbing because you have more time AND it nears the point where you have to pivot grab to not get shined out of the chaingrab.

Source: my personal testing and shaky memory, eg. take all specifics with a grain of salt.

 

[Dart!]

NO GUYS DON'T FALCO THREAD THIS ONE TOO OH MY GOSH

I really like jab vs Falco when I can set it up. Forces most of them to freeze up/shield which makes for intense pressure.

Also I suck at getting the CG down around 17-22% on Falco or something(keep getting shined). Should I just end it early or am I missing some information?

Have to pivot grab. Falco is heavier. Don't utilt till > 35

 

[Bones0]

If they are doing it predictably, you could be awesome and just uthrow, walk away, and fsmash them as they hold down to shine.

 

[.Chipmunk.]

NO GUYS DON'T FALCO THREAD THIS ONE TOO OH MY GOSH

I really like jab vs Falco when I can set it up. Forces most of them to freeze up/shield which makes for intense pressure.

Also I suck at getting the CG down around 17-22% on Falco or something(keep getting shined). Should I just end it early or am I missing some information?

You probably have the same issue I had in that you are grabbing too late. Another thing I would add is to listen to the sound of their controller. If they are trying to shine out, it's a single button input mash. A much different sound than trying to wiggle out of the grab which is several. If they are doing then, you can always dthrow > jab reset. It'll get you the percent you need without having to worry about those pesky shines (That is, if you can't get the timing right.)

 

[knightpraetor]

the shine is the reason that we all JC grab instead of dash grabbing during the chaingrab right? we should be spaced around the shine after the pivot..but if you dash grab even though you cover a lot more space and are much less likely to miss you will probably be shined before the grab comes out, right?

 

[Beat!]

Have to pivot grab. Falco is heavier. Don't utilt till > 35

If he DIs away, don't utilt at all. Just keep regrabbing him.

 

[knightpraetor]

mahone, if you're reading this just know that i'm in my room sitting here practicing tech skill with marth and peach if you feel like playing

 

[strawhats]

recent marth vs luigi

m2k vs abate http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eIE-4qmbefE&feature=watch-vrec

 

[Tarv]

Holy crap! That Luigi is amazing. And the usual good stuff from m2k.

 

[knightpraetor]

does anyone know if shieldbreaker or nair has more horizontal knockback? or does it vary based on percent?