Important Carefully Ask PPMD about the Tiara Guy

[Niko45]

watching that set reminds me how good marth's nair is. So damn good.

 

[knightpraetor]

ok, nair always seems to have more horizontal knockback..that's what i figured but still.

Also, bones, is there a tourney in nova at sypher's this weekend? i heard there was. I'm trying to find a ride back sunday but I don't want to go through the trouble unless there is actually a tourney then. But I figure sypher is asleep by now.

also, my housing fell through so I now need housing tuesday and wednesday night..preferably somewhere i can play smash like mad

i asked sypher, but I assume he's asleep now.

 

[Bones0]

ok, nair always seems to have more horizontal knockback..that's what i figured but still.

Also, bones, is there a tourney in nova at sypher's this weekend? i heard there was. I'm trying to find a ride back sunday but I don't want to go through the trouble unless there is actually a tourney then. But I figure sypher is asleep by now.

also, my housing fell through so I now need housing tuesday and wednesday night..preferably somewhere i can play smash like mad

i asked sypher, but I assume he's asleep now.

Yes.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

Aerial Shieldbreaker (no charge) < Bair (no tip) < Nair (has no tipper) < Bair (tipper)

 

[TKD+ITA+Mar=]

Okay so kind of a random question, but does anyone know the rationale behind Taj picking PS for game 5 vs Mango in winners semi's in Genesis 2? I have noticed that Ken seems to like PS as well, so I am wondering if there is something strategically advantageous for marth on that stage.

 

[Dr Peepee]

I didn't ask him, but he didn't want Mango on that top platform probably.

Mango abuses platforms really hard when he plays so it was the best reasoning I've thought of for that choice(I'd do it too after thinking about it).

I like Marth on PS because it's close to FD with lots of room+small platforms making combos easier. Transformations can be a pain but the worst ones can be camped out so it's not too bad.

 

[Kadano]

Something strange happened to me. Does anyone know what this is and what it is caused by?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rJwxwbOUMPo&feature=youtu.be

Yes, I'm using a hacked Melee, but physics are left unchanged. Making hitboxes visible via debug mode surely doesn't influence the physics.

Edit: I figured this doesn't really belong here. I've made a different thread:
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=15079234#post15079234

 

[clowsui]

it doesn't influence the physics but if you're playing it on a GC the processor might be trying to track/display too many things at once? unsure lol

 

[TKD+ITA+Mar=]

I didn't ask him, but he didn't want Mango on that top platform probably.

Mango abuses platforms really hard when he plays so it was the best reasoning I've thought of for that choice(I'd do it too after thinking about it).

I like Marth on PS because it's close to FD with lots of room+small platforms making combos easier. Transformations can be a pain but the worst ones can be camped out so it's not too bad.

Hmm, this makes a lot of sense and is pretty insightful, but why not just take him straight to FD?

 

[Dr Peepee]

Hmm, this makes a lot of sense and is pretty insightful, but why not just take him straight to FD?

I don't remember G2's ruleset, but if Taj could have taken Mango to FD but didn't, then my guess is that Taj isn't perfect at the CG so the platform combos could get him more damage/a kill than a CG could in that case. Mango also double lasers from the edge often, and Marth can Fair/Bair from the platform to hit Falco fairly reliably if he gets the read.

Just some ideas. Those little platforms are great LOL.

 

[TKD+ITA+Mar=]

Marth can Fair/Bair from the platform to hit Falco fairly reliably if he gets the read.

Just some ideas. Those little platforms are great LOL.

Didn't even think about doing that. That's a pretty cool trick. And yeah, it's surprising how useful those platforms are given their relatively small size. Thanks for the help PP.

 

[Tee ay eye]

Okay so kind of a random question, but does anyone know the rationale behind Taj picking PS for game 5 vs Mango in winners semi's in Genesis 2? I have noticed that Ken seems to like PS as well, so I am wondering if there is something strategically advantageous for marth on that stage.

i was the one who told taj to pick PS for that game

mango banned FD, and FD is BY FAR taj's favorite stage (no matter what character he's playing), so i told him to just pick PS because it's like final destination with 2 platforms where marth can get easy tippers on falco. the lack of a top platform changes things a lot from the other 4 neutrals.

taj isn't a very fast/maneuverable player, so having the game revolve around platform movement doesn't really fit his style.

 

[Bones0]

I think PS is a better cp vs. Falco than FD. Plats give you better maneuverability around lasers, and they make combos way easier not only to continue, but to KO out of. A lot of stocks on FD start with great CGs and combos, but then they fizzle because the spacie is too high of a %. On PS you can just combo them onto one of the plats, and from there you can almost always tipper fsmash no matter what they do. The ledge also makes it harder for spacies to recover low or wall-ride to avoid counter. It's also pretty rare that Falco will gain any mileage from trying to continue combos onto the plats since they are so low and there's no top plat to go to after you shine/utilt from there.

 

[OverLord]

Well ok, but going as far to even say it's better than FD, it's maybe too much.
It's playable and good for all those reason for sure, but I don't think a Falco player would feel any uncomfortable there, there are plenty of good reasons for Falco to pick PS against Marth, it's not at all a bad stage for him in the MU, which FD actually is.

 

[Bones0]

Well ok, but going as far to even say it's better than FD, it's maybe too much.
It's playable and good for all those reason for sure, but I don't think a Falco player would feel any uncomfortable there, there are plenty of good reasons for Falco to pick PS against Marth, it's not at all a bad stage for him in the MU, which FD actually is.

Like what?

 

[Dr Peepee]

You don't need platforms to maneuver around lasers, and getting above Falco as Marth can be problematic.

Weak Uairs allow Marth to continue CGs/combos, and if Falco DIs then he's just really far offstage at that point LOL.

It's true that Falco can't recover as well there, but he can definitely make great use of platforms for combos. Plus, Falco's SH Bair can reach through the platform and cover most options even if Falco put someone there or they put themselves there.

 

[OverLord]

Like what?

Falco has room to space/spam, platforms favour Falco's combos, stage transformations are utterly one-sided on Falco, and stage is smaller than FD, and that really just favours Falco, you ain't gonna kill him upwards anyway.

Marth can really do fine just in the neutral transformation, not better than FD anyway, no platforms>platforms against spacies for obvious reasons, even though I like play the MU on PS myself.

 

[Niko45]

FD is really good for Marth vs Falco if you are really on point with powershielding and chaingrab combos.

If you don't powershield well Falco will dominate the stage with laser abuse and you having no way to get away from them.

If you can't chain grab well you have no platforms to baby your punish game and you will end up getting sub 20% off of neutral game victories that you need to be converting into deaths.

Imo FD in this matchup favors Marth at really high level but it can backfire really terribly if you aren't on point at these 2 things (you'll need Falco mistakes, which of course is a realistic possibility).

Pokestadium is possibly Marth's best offensive stage and no top platform abuse for Falco is really good for Marth's neutral game. It's pretty much ideal to have a long flat stage with platforms BUT no top platform. There's also stuff like spacies not being able to ride the wall, little things that help. As long as you don't get caught in the insanely terrible spots of the transformations and wait them out it should be strong for Marth.

 

[OverLord]

Well ok but I can't see any Marth getting anywhere without a solid chaingrabbing nowadays.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

Falco takes the neutral on any stage. Either destroys the other on any stage once 0-death starter is landed. I always thought this was the norm.

Punishment is an important component, but whether you get if off of the CG or tech chasing, I'd expected nearly everyone understands what to do to KO the bird once you get an appropriate 0-death started (such as a grab). But, I still see a lot more confusion how to approach the neutral game.

 

[TKD+ITA+Mar=]

i was the one who told taj to pick PS for that game

mango banned FD, and FD is BY FAR taj's favorite stage (no matter what character he's playing), so i told him to just pick PS because it's like final destination with 2 platforms where marth can get easy tippers on falco. the lack of a top platform changes things a lot from the other 4 neutrals.

taj isn't a very fast/maneuverable player, so having the game revolve around platform movement doesn't really fit his style.

Woah this is some serious insider knowledge. Would you happen to know why GMoney hates Taj so much? (And what his expression was after that set? haha)

 

[Tee ay eye]

i think g$ was just kidding around

he's friends with mango so he was just talkin **** cuz tournaments. might've gone a little far, but whatever

 

[Bones0]

You don't need platforms to maneuver around lasers...

Oh?



Being real though, I thought you did a lot of good stuff that game and a few polishes here and there could have landed you that victory. Even little stuff like not pummeling at low %s and ground teching dsmashes can make a pretty huge difference in this matchup. I also realize Marth sucks at coming down vs. Falco, but you did a lot of falling aerials and DJs that I thought were way too risky. I feel like M2K would have just opted to drift offstage to the ledge in those cases, but that's also M2K so maybe you want to try something more your style. Maybe go PS instead of FD so you can have those platforms to help land quicker and mindgame by falling through. ;D

Also, I'm guessing your previous question about pivots was from this set (I hadn't seen it yet). The one I remember you messing up at 9:15 was because you tried to pivot towards him. Maybe this is irrelevant and there is some other reason it didn't work, but I always pivot away from them and basically try to outspace the shine (though you should be able to get them before they shine anyway). So like for that specific instance, I would have dashed left and pivot-grabbed facing right. Obviously if he had DI'd slight behind, you would have had to dash right and then pivot left instead. You could also just fthrow tech chase when you have him grabbed by the ledge. It may not be "optimal," but if you're way more confident in your tech chases and don't make it so predictable that he gets slide offs then you can make it work to get him out of that small % range where shining out is actually useful.

/noobmarthsecondarycritiquingapromarth

Falco has room to space/spam, platforms favour Falco's combos, stage transformations are utterly one-sided on Falco, and stage is smaller than FD, and that really just favours Falco, you ain't gonna kill him upwards anyway.

Marth can really do fine just in the neutral transformation, not better than FD anyway, no platforms>platforms against spacies for obvious reasons, even though I like play the MU on PS myself.

Stage transformations aren't even bad for Marth barring getting shined off the top of the windmill or Forest Transformation (should basically never happen) or getting steamrolled in the pit of Rock Transformations. At the same time, he can get almost equally dumb **** by fsmashing/utilting through the tree on Fire, getting super edgeguard hitboxes because of ledge slants, and he can toss Falco around in the pit almost as bad as Falco can dair spam him. Even if you think he's horrible on them, Marth is one of the best characters at forcing them to wait it out by doing stuff like up-B camping the left side of Rock or utilt camping the left side of Forest. And then you can almost always just counter and immediately reverse the situation. I would never try to approach a Marth on a campy transformation once the positions are set up. Just too many things can go wrong trying to jump over a wall towards Marth.

Well ok but I can't see any Marth getting anywhere without a solid chaingrabbing nowadays.

But you CAN chain grab on PS, and like it's been said, it actually becomes much easier both to get Falco from those low %s into easier juggling %s, as well as getting him onto plats in order to finish him off. People can try to be M2K all day on FD, but I'll take my single uthrow, preemptive SH, uair on a plat to get triple the % with 20 times less chances for errors.

 

[OverLord]

I never said Falco has too much rom to spam on FD O_o', I don't bother at all Falco spamming 'cause I'm an amazing powershielder, for real.

I said that blastzones are nearer than FD on PS, that's a good advantage for Falco, and the fact that the stage is flat and larger than other neutral (YS, BF, FoD) gives Falco more room in the neutral game. Platforms are obvious tools for both sides, but as Falco, I'd rather be chaingrabbed where I can try to escape on a platform than getting a 0-death with no chanche of escaping.

That's why FD>PS.

If you prefer PS 'cause you're not that good at chaingrabbing, fine, but don't tell me it's better because of a lack of execution skills; you don't have to be M2K to 0-death a Falco on FD, trust me.

I'd just recommend FoD if I don't want to go on FD for whatever reason (it has to be banned I guess), I'd never CP a Falco on PS when I got better stages to choose (FoD, BF/YS).

 

[Bones0]

The stage is flat and larger than other neutrals, but so is FD. If PS is better for Falco because of being flat and large, then the same can be said for FD. As far as FD punishments being better, I just don't buy it. Even FD dropped like 3 chain grabs vs. PP on that last game of Zenith. You can say he was nervous or whatever, but that's kind of my point. Even if you're M2K on your game you'll drop a few chain grabs that PROBABLY would have ended similarly on PS, but would have been easier.

It seems we just have a fundamental disagreement about how platforms affect Marth's combo game so we'll just have to agree to disagree.


Also, for the record, I'm good at chain grabbing spacies! ;P

Oh, and I won't go into details because I'm pretty sure I already explained this, but I believe FoD is Falco's second strongest stage vs. Marth after DL (YS at a close third though).

 

[Dr Peepee]

Oh?



Being real though, I thought you did a lot of good stuff that game and a few polishes here and there could have landed you that victory. Even little stuff like not pummeling at low %s and ground teching dsmashes can make a pretty huge difference in this matchup. I also realize Marth sucks at coming down vs. Falco, but you did a lot of falling aerials and DJs that I thought were way too risky. I feel like M2K would have just opted to drift offstage to the ledge in those cases, but that's also M2K so maybe you want to try something more your style. Maybe go PS instead of FD so you can have those platforms to help land quicker and mindgame by falling through. ;D

Also, I'm guessing your previous question about pivots was from this set (I hadn't seen it yet). The one I remember you messing up at 9:15 was because you tried to pivot towards him. Maybe this is irrelevant and there is some other reason it didn't work, but I always pivot away from them and basically try to outspace the shine (though you should be able to get them before they shine anyway). So like for that specific instance, I would have dashed left and pivot-grabbed facing right. Obviously if he had DI'd slight behind, you would have had to dash right and then pivot left instead. You could also just fthrow tech chase when you have him grabbed by the ledge. It may not be "optimal," but if you're way more confident in your tech chases and don't make it so predictable that he gets slide offs then you can make it work to get him out of that small % range where shining out is actually useful.

/noobmarthsecondarycritiquingapromarth

lmao I hated that set.

I think instead of always DJ'ing or falling aerial, I should have airdodged/wavelanded backwards last second or side B'd last second like I know I'm supposed to do so he doesn't get free punishes every time.

And yeah, I was told I could tech chase setup to make that percent range easier to handle. I think it's just practice, but I also don't know Falco CG %s like I do Fox so I'll have to practice with some people to figure it out. good reminder!



Edit: It's also worth pointing out my linear method of dealing with lasers in this set. I got pushed back too much by lasers hoping Mango would run in after I sat in shield. Instead, he simply dashed in with more lasers usually and gained free stage. My counter to this strategy should have been WDs in to maybe jabs, or WD'ing back early into WD forward attack or walk forward Ftilt/whatever into his approaching laser. If I was confident in WD into PS that's also another option but I don't try that.

 

[oliman]

hey PP

what is the best way in your opinion to wait out respawn invincibility?
and why were you mad after you played axe at KoC?

 

[GimR]

Imma start playing seriously again and play Falco. Once I get my tech skill back I hope to show the Falco boards things they've never seen before with this character.. I hope to have one of the smoothest Falcos ever seen.

 

[Dr Peepee]

hey PP

what is the best way in your opinion to wait out respawn invincibility?
and why were you mad after you played axe at KoC?

Depends on the matchup, but it's either edge grabs or lots of shielding/WD'ing OOS like Mango/Azen do. I think some quick platform movement helps as well since jumping takes time.

And I was mad in part because I felt like I played poorly, but mostly because I wanted to be fired up to beat Mango.

 

[Anand]

Imma start playing seriously again and play Falco. Once I get my tech skill back I hope to show the Falco boards things they've never seen before with this character.. I hope to have one of the smoothest Falcos ever seen.

You know this is the Marth boards right?

 

[Tee ay eye]

they're pretty much the same place anyway

 

[Anand]

they're pretty much the same place anyway

falco = marth

 

[Smooth Criminal]

why would you link a Crush post

why

Smooth Criminal

 

[.Chipmunk.]

So I was playing a Peach just the other day, and they were at that percent where it gets tricky to get that kill. They can DI the side b utilt, block the fsmash, etc. Therefore, I was looking for a unique/new way of reliably taking a stock once they reach that percentage. I was able to bthrow to tipper uair before my opponent could shake out of stun. I know it's DI dependent, but bthrow is so rare for Marth's to use that I think this might be a safe way to kill this princess once she's at gay percents. Now, I only did it once and never got Peach up to that percent again to try it, but would someone see if this is a true combo/legit way to kill her?

 

[OverLord]

The stage is flat and larger than other neutrals, but so is FD. If PS is better for Falco because of being flat and large, then the same can be said for FD. As far as FD punishments being better, I just don't buy it. Even FD dropped like 3 chain grabs vs. PP on that last game of Zenith. You can say he was nervous or whatever, but that's kind of my point. Even if you're M2K on your game you'll drop a few chain grabs that PROBABLY would have ended similarly on PS, but would have been easier.

It seems we just have a fundamental disagreement about how platforms affect Marth's combo game so we'll just have to agree to disagree.


Also, for the record, I'm good at chain grabbing spacies! ;P

Oh, and I won't go into details because I'm pretty sure I already explained this, but I believe FoD is Falco's second strongest stage vs. Marth after DL (YS at a close third though).

Fair enough.

I'd just point out that FD is not as good for Falco 'cause even though he got space, no platforms (and no transformation) make a really strong positional edge for Marth, you really shouldn't be scared as Marth against Falco on FD, you got your punish game at the maximum possible, and you got nothing to fear if you can manage to control the neutral game (which is easier if you are good at powershielding).

FoD is GODLIKE for Marth if you can shield-drop and make a good use of edge-cancels; I see why is good for Falco but I really feel powerful on that stage.

 

[Dr Peepee]

So I was playing a Peach just the other day, and they were at that percent where it gets tricky to get that kill. They can DI the side b utilt, block the fsmash, etc. Therefore, I was looking for a unique/new way of reliably taking a stock once they reach that percentage. I was able to bthrow to tipper uair before my opponent could shake out of stun. I know it's DI dependent, but bthrow is so rare for Marth's to use that I think this might be a safe way to kill this princess once she's at gay percents. Now, I only did it once and never got Peach up to that percent again to try it, but would someone see if this is a true combo/legit way to kill her?

I don't even know what %s you're talking about LOL

 

[.Chipmunk.]

I don't even know what %s you're talking about LOL

Hmm, I'd say around 160%? Bout the time when you'd be trying to kill her off the top with utilt but she's expecting it so she's DIing away from it.

 

[Construct]

Now that it's been brought up, I'd like to hear people's thoughts on FoD. I feel really uncomfortable on the stage. The lower platform heights invalidates of Marth's biggest advantages, his platform coverage. Anyone can cover FoD platforms, but one of Marth's greatest assets is that he can cover almost all platforms, and that's relatively weakend here, because everyone else can too. Furthermore, he can't even tip utilts/uairs on the lower platforms. Adding on to that the horrible things characters can do while on top of the platforms (Falcon/Gannon stomp, falco dair, peach dsmash etc)... I just feel really uncomfortable on the stage. There's also other stuff like the random aspect of the platforms messing up my movement, the stage itself gives people all sorts of weird ways to recover (here's looking at you, samus).

I really like bthrow as a sort of "DI trap" as a higher percent finisher. If you're fairly confident you know your opponent will DI it wrong (for example, they're by the ledge), then b-throw can lead into all sorts of fun finishers on a big chunk of the cast. It's fairly janky, but it still works as long as you don't abuse it too much. I'm like 98% sure that Peach can DI out of bthrow-> u-air though.

 

[GimR]

You know this is the Marth boards right?

If doctor PeePee is in here it's about Falco.

but seriously, I was on my phone and saw ask Dr. PeePee and thought it was his falco thread. lol

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

Marth's platform coverage gets better if anything. A single Utilt covers nearly the entire lower platform the lower to the stage it gets. And, marth crouches low enough that even at the platforms lowest level, he won't get hit by Dsmash from peach or get-up attacks. I don't really see how his coverage is any worse. And SH Uair can still cover the top platform as an example for its lower stage height compared to BF or DL. I love the stage despite how weird it is to still play on it.

I don't use Bthrow enough. It doesn't need to always rely upon DI in with platforms involved. Bthrow DI in seems to lead to some guaranteed stuff while Bthrow of other DI can tend to place people on platforms into teching positions.