Important Carefully Ask PPMD about the Tiara Guy

[Tee ay eye]

i actually don't understand much about it in terms of DI and percentage. i'm just pretty good at eyeballing it and guessing when it will hit.

i should probably test it with axe the next time i see him.

all i know is that if it hits with the tipper, peach is dead as **** LOL

and if it hits with the almost-tipper, nothing cool happens

btw, @mahie, he was talking about fthrow -> WD forward -> tipper dsmash, not fthrow straight into dsmash

something to keep in mind though

is that d-smash's tipper comes out on frame 6 (there's a frame 5 hitbox, but it's not the tipper), and since f-smash starts from the top and swings down, it doesn't reach all the way down until frame 12. so d-smash has a good 6 frames up on f-smash.

 

[Jun.]

Thanks Tai I'ma try that out. Always good to know kill setups vs Peach.

 

[Mahie]

and if it hits with the almost-tipper, nothing cool happens

That's the one reason I try to keep it for random shieldpokes or as a techchase tool.

And oddly enough I was picturing Fthrow --> WD Back --> Dsmash more easily on Peach, but I'm not sure why. Does Peach start DIing in at higher%s on Fthrows?

 

[Jun.]

I'm pretty sure no character will DI in vs Marth on a fthrow cause that's just a guarunteed fsmash and no one wants to eat that.

 

[Mahie]

You come into a thread full of the world's most active Marth players and mutter some gibberish about Fthrow when I asked a specific question to a specific person about a specific scenario vs Peach that I saw Tai do on the stream 2 or more times in one match this past weekend, leading me to believe that it was not some gimmick but something completely intentional and tested.

vs FF why the hell would you fthrow -> dsmash them wtf?
why the hell would you dsmash after a fthrow when they're off the stage wtf?

hence my snide remark


But thanks Tai I'ma use that and give you credit =D

I'm pretty sure no character will DI in vs Marth on a fthrow cause that's just a guarunteed fsmash and no one wants to eat that.

I don't understand your first few points. Who said I'm not an active Marth?

And I explained why you would, if they DI away like I assume they might on dtilt, they get ****ed big time.

Also Marth can't fsmash peach out of DI in on fthrow I'm pretty sure she nairs before, but with you being that adamant i'd need confirmation now.

 

[Jun.]

I'm just being silly lol.

Yeah and with some percentage on her I'm fairly confident she can't nair before our fsmash after a fthrow. Can you imagine that, a world where all Peaches DI in on Fthrow and nair us in the face? That would be absurd.

If anything I would guess that they DI away and down to escape our dash attack which is guarunteed at some percentages. And at higher percents they'll continue DI'ing away to escape death by Fsmash.

 

[Mahie]

I'm just being silly lol.

Yeah and with some percentage on her I'm fairly confident she can't nair before our fsmash after a fthrow. Can you imagine that, a world where all Peaches DI in on Fsmash and nair us in the face? That would be absurd.

If anything I would guess that they DI away and down to escape our dash attack which is guarunteed at some percentages. And at higher percents they'll continue DI'ing away to escape death by Fsmash.

Well I don't know it feels like something Armada has done to me a few times but I'm really not sure anymore now haha.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Holes.

lololol

DANG YOU LMFAO

@tai: yeah probably but I mean it never hurts to restate it. how's your evolution of the strategy going then hmm?

 

[strawhats]

Hey PP, did you happen to MM/play friendlies with guys like Shroomed(doc)/Axe's pika/Fly's ICs(since he's reall good at the MU) with marth.

If so could u possibly share your thoughts on those MUs especially considering Ken's thoughts on marth/pika.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Haven't heard ken's thoughts word for word but from the sounds of things I disagree with them haha.

I barely played any friendlies at KoC and I didn't play those people with Marth. I did however play Mango with Marth vs his spacies once again and beat them both the majority of the matches. His Falco got me in tourney though so *shrug*

 

[ShroudedOne]

He shot a lot of lasers at you.

 

[Tee ay eye]

@tai: yeah probably but I mean it never hurts to restate it. how's your evolution of the strategy going then hmm?

i think i've hit a point of diminishing returns with using this strat in terms of retreating and trying to get a grab (e.g. getting hit by a laser and then doing a DD grab back or a WD backwards). in fact, i'd say that i'm only really strong at using this strat when fishing for grabs. if you watch my set with mango, he sorta stomps on me by calling my retreats all day, but in those same situations, i feel like i could've won the exchanges by just sticking out a good hitbox. the area of development i'm currently trying to work on right now is being able to distinguish between situations where i should go for a grab vs when i should stick my sword out to beat them, so this is probably where i'm going to advance first.

on the flipside, i'm incredibly underdeveloped at using this strategy aggressively because trying to manmode through falco's lasers is incredibly stressful with the threat of him just nairing/dairing/dash attacking me in the face

 

[crush]

Tai fthrow dsmash? swag

 

[Tee ay eye]

by the way, here is a really silly trick i did against taj that indirectly won me the match. i would be happy to see a lot of people doing it more because it would piss everyone off

taj had me trapped on the ledge, and taj's marth is REALLY good at trapping you by the edge. what did i decide to do?

i looked at the clock and saw that randall was coming out the right side in like, 5-6 seconds. i decided to stall the ledge for a few seconds to wait until randall got closer, and then when he was almost there, i ledgehopped on with a counter. if he hit me, then i would've countered his attack, and it would've been good times for me. he didn't hit me, and since he saw my counter, he grabbed since he didn't want to risk trying to hard-punish me because sometimes marth's counter duration is really deceptive. after grabbing me, he threw me back offstage, and instead of being forced into the usual vortex of recovery options, i was able to airdodge onto randall, which he wasn't fully prepared to deal with. since he wasn't prepared to deal with it, i killed him

 

[Deleted member]

since he wasn't prepared to deal with it, i killed him

lol, you killed him with his own lack of preparation.

Dr. Book, you should copy tai, you can surprise all of your opponents to death. It'll be like commanding someone to have a heart attack.

 

[Tee ay eye]

lol, you killed him with his own lack of preparation.

Dr. Book, you should copy tai, you can surprise all of your opponents to death. It'll be like commanding someone to have a heart attack.

i have 911 on speed dial because of how often i surprise my opponents

in all seriousness, i wasn't telling people to rely on janky **** like this to win matches. i just wanted to point out that randall presence is neat, and in some situations, can make ledge recovery on yoshi's easier.

 

[Deleted member]

yeah i get you lol

unreal talk though, you destroyed a full grown, powerful negro man with nothing but your cunning and finesse. i feel that we should glorify this well past necessity.

 

[Divinokage]

If only there were more players with sick reactions to deal with that kind of ****. lol.

 

[Tee ay eye]

unreal talk though, you destroyed a full grown, powerful negro man with nothing but your cunning and finesse. i feel that we should glorify this well past necessity.

i don't know what about this made me laugh so much, but it did

 

[Dr Peepee]

He shot a lot of lasers at you.

That he did, and I did not adapt well like a scrublet.

i think i've hit a point of diminishing returns with using this strat in terms of retreating and trying to get a grab (e.g. getting hit by a laser and then doing a DD grab back or a WD backwards). in fact, i'd say that i'm only really strong at using this strat when fishing for grabs. if you watch my set with mango, he sorta stomps on me by calling my retreats all day, but in those same situations, i feel like i could've won the exchanges by just sticking out a good hitbox. the area of development i'm currently trying to work on right now is being able to distinguish between situations where i should go for a grab vs when i should stick my sword out to beat them, so this is probably where i'm going to advance first.

on the flipside, i'm incredibly underdeveloped at using this strategy aggressively because trying to manmode through falco's lasers is incredibly stressful with the threat of him just nairing/dairing/dash attacking me in the face

Reading this post gave me an interesting thought. What if Marth made a very slight hesitation before committing to WD/dash back? I think at the range Falco sits at when he lasers then approaches he could still be counter punished by Marth for trying to attack anyway but Marth's always get antsy due to worry about getting hit(as you mentioned) and give up lots of little mixup opportunities that could be available in that span of time/space.

My particular struggle with the strategy was that I never went forward. I just assumed Mango would try to come into me like he did in friendlies, but he was content to push me to the edge. I specifically remember him lagging on coming in at a few points and realized sticking a WD OOS back to WD in Ftilt/jab/possibly Nair could have given me great rewards.

 

[Tee ay eye]

Reading this post gave me an interesting thought. What if Marth made a very slight hesitation before committing to WD/dash back? I think at the range Falco sits at when he lasers then approaches he could still be counter punished by Marth for trying to attack anyway but Marth's always get antsy due to worry about getting hit(as you mentioned) and give up lots of little mixup opportunities that could be available in that span of time/space.

i'm not quite sure if i read this post right, but here's my interpretation of it:

after tanking a laser, DON'T WD back immediately. it eventually gets a bit too predictable and easy to bait out if you commit to it every time you tank a laser. however, if you WAIT a second after taking a laser, it will make falco think that you're going to be a man and robocop your way through his laser, which will THEN make him want to jump at you, and THEN you (marth) do the WD back to punish him?

My particular struggle with the strategy was that I never went forward. I just assumed Mango would try to come into me like he did in friendlies, but he was content to push me to the edge. I specifically remember him lagging on coming in at a few points and realized sticking a WD OOS back to WD in Ftilt/jab/possibly Nair could have given me great rewards.

sounds like we have the same/a similar problem in this regard then

with that last bit, are you saying.....

WD OOS backwards to make falco think he can comfortably go in and push you to the edge

and then WD forward f-tilt/jab/whatever to punish his baited aggression?

me gusta. plus, it was something along the same lines of what i was thinking, and probably more applicable against most falcos. i was thinking of wavedashing back and then sticking out a hitbox instead of trying to fish for a grab whenever falco (mango) called my retreating grabs with overshot nairs, but i guess it depends on how deep the falco is trying to go.

your thing is probably a lot better when falco is trying to slowly push you to the edge (which i'd imagine is most of the time) since (in my head), it throws his spacing off hardcore, whereas he's less likely to run into a WD back jab/ftilt/whatever unless he's trying to go really deep and lunge at you






you are a good person, kevin

 

[Dr Peepee]

i'm not quite sure if i read this post right, but here's my interpretation of it:

after tanking a laser, DON'T WD back immediately. it eventually gets a bit too predictable and easy to bait out if you commit to it every time you tank a laser. however, if you WAIT a second after taking a laser, it will make falco think that you're going to be a man and robocop your way through his laser, which will THEN make him want to jump at you, and THEN you (marth) do the WD back to punish him?



sounds like we have the same/a similar problem in this regard then

with that last bit, are you saying.....

WD OOS backwards to make falco think he can comfortably go in and push you to the edge

and then WD forward f-tilt/jab/whatever to punish his baited aggression?

me gusta. plus, it was something along the same lines of what i was thinking, and probably more applicable against most falcos. i was thinking of wavedashing back and then sticking out a hitbox instead of trying to fish for a grab whenever falco (mango) called my retreating grabs with overshot nairs, but i guess it depends on how deep the falco is trying to go.

your thing is probably a lot better when falco is trying to slowly push you to the edge (which i'd imagine is most of the time) since (in my head), it throws his spacing off hardcore, whereas he's less likely to run into a WD back jab/ftilt/whatever unless he's trying to go really deep and lunge at you






you are a good person, kevin

that is what im saying @ part 1

I think smaller WDs could also benefit Marth a very great deal because then he could micromanage that spacing which Falco screws up better but Marths(myself included) tend to go suuuper far just to get a really big reaction window on an approach, which is a big red flag to any Falco. We have to make it seem like we're vulnerable in order to get any real incentive to trick an intelligent player.

 

[Tee ay eye]

i didn't really think about smaller WDs, but i think that's part of something i "just do" anyway, but i'll keep an eye out for it next time.

did i get part 2 right, as well?

 

[knightpraetor]

"I barely played any friendlies at KoC and I didn't play those people with Marth. I did however play Mango with Marth vs his spacies once again and beat them both the majority of the matches. His Falco got me in tourney though so *shrug*
"

sorry if i think that doesn't mean jack. falcos don't play laser heavy till they lose a match. I won a match against you in tourney tooo and would have won the second one and then you decided to laser a lot and kept eating up the space I lost from the lasers. I went from being two stock up to being dead sooooo fast.. The problem you mention of retreating out of shield is the same problem I always experience by 3rd match against falcos. It's just that for some reason falcos are dumb and don't think to abuse lasers until they are losing usually.

Pushing through the lasers is really high risk as you are far more likely to get comboed to death off an aerial approach while moving in than you are to get the grab. Sh forward actually is better in general except that you then lose to retreating laser unless you are good at reverse wavelands and fairing after the laser (more likely the latter if the falco knows when to do the laser).

falco holds all the cards so long as he has the gun. personally eating the laser grounded at the right spacing where he can't followup seems a lot better than shield retreat and play from shield or jump forward out of shield and get wrecked.

Anyway my main point that I want to make is that eating a grounded laser at a wider spacing than falco can followup on allows marth to somewhat reestablish neutral instead of always playing from a disadvantage.

Of course if we could all just 90%+ powershield we would be fine.

But yeah, taking matches off aggro falco doesn't mean anything. It's the tournament matches that count. Same reason I know I would never beat your falco in a set in tourney because you will always start playing smart and lasering twice as much as normal once you want to win.

actually that isn't really what i mean. it's not so much that you laser more, it's that you choose not to come in after your lasers and abuse my reliance on out of shield options that you can space around

sorry for whining, but i just hate how everything you are mentioning that made it hard against mango is stuff I have said gives falco a huge advantage over marth for several months. But everyone just says " oh you'll be fine just wd out of shield in response to his approaches."

I'll be honest and say that without powershielding I think sheik has a significantly better matchup than marth on falco because she can eat lasers and act quickly while marth needs too many frames to get out useful moves. Sheik's fast frame data really makes a difference in the viability of eating lasers. While marth pretty much has to eat lasers at a wider spacing to reestablish neutral position.

I'm not saying that marth can't win or even play well enough to make it difficult for a falco that is lasering a lot. But how can anyone possibly think that a matchup in which one char can pin the other and force him to retreat or try a risky aerial out of shield is 50-50.

I could understand 50-50 if the marth has powershielding down solid, but for me that only happens 1 day out of 5.

Falco is good. His lasers wreck most of the cast. to compete you need good movement options over the lasers (less hang time than marth), to be able to ignore lasers most of the time like floaties, or to have fast moves that can be performed after eating lasers.

 

[Dr Peepee]

@tai: yes

@kp: lasering more isn't really better, it's just that marths aren't as good at handling lasers or what comes in between lasers yet. we'll get there.

my ideal for fighting against falco is he lasers some, you punish that, force him to laser more/less, then wreck more with a good PS game/attack in between lasers game, and wreck less by outranging/outmaneuvering Falco straight up. Falcos tend to get to the point where they laser a lot and get off free instead of being forced to change again, and that would be when they'd start falling apart(or they'd try the opposite of more or less and then fall apart).

edit: marths need to move forward OOS more or take lasers to reduce OOS lag so they can handle Falco better then. fear of the laser makes it stronger.

 

[knightpraetor]

"marths need to move forward OOS more or take lasers to reduce OOS lag so they can handle Falco better then"

the problem with this idea is that the falco doesn't have to continue lasering or even move once you are in shield. he merely needs to reach a spacing at which he can react to both your WD out of shield and sh out of shield.

moving forward out of shield will just get you aerialled during the wavedash lag. SH forward works better but if the falco waits he can just go backwards and either dodge and punish or laser your landing so that you have additional lag plus landing lag to make 6 frames or so of disadvantage thus allowing him to establish a real advantage.

The problem lies with entering shield in the first place. Being in shield is a sucky position. However, eating lasers at the right time is better in my opinion. but honestly powershield on command is the only thing that will move the matchup into marth's favor.

shield is still decent if you first eat space before you shield, that way when you are forced a large percent of the time to lose space to get out of shield you net even. But honestly eating a laser at the right spacing seems far superior to shielding while moving backwards and then being forced to lose even more space when you move from shield.

 

[Tarv]

What if Marth made a very slight hesitation before committing to WD/dash back?

For some reason this reminded me of the way a lot of Samuses move. They seem to do a lot of feints with a quick dash forward and then WD back before setting up a counter; more so than other characters. I mean obviously Marths shouldn't start trying to emulate Samus movement but maybe there's something to be learned there. After all people who play Samus are tricksy *******s, so maybe marths need to be more creative in their movement?

 

[Dr Peepee]

"marths need to move forward OOS more or take lasers to reduce OOS lag so they can handle Falco better then"

the problem with this idea is that the falco doesn't have to continue lasering or even move once you are in shield. he merely needs to reach a spacing at which he can react to both your WD out of shield and sh out of shield.

moving forward out of shield will just get you aerialled during the wavedash lag. SH forward works better but if the falco waits he can just go backwards and either dodge and punish or laser your landing so that you have additional lag plus landing lag to make 6 frames or so of disadvantage thus allowing him to establish a real advantage.

The problem lies with entering shield in the first place. Being in shield is a sucky position. However, eating lasers at the right time is better in my opinion. but honestly powershield on command is the only thing that will move the matchup into marth's favor.

shield is still decent if you first eat space before you shield, that way when you are forced a large percent of the time to lose space to get out of shield you net even. But honestly eating a laser at the right spacing seems far superior to shielding while moving backwards and then being forced to lose even more space when you move from shield.

theory bros aside, it looks like part of the answer lies in not always putting up a shield after taking a laser or seeing a laser. falcos rarely go straight in after lasering anyway, so taking a laser or getting more movements/attacks in before an initial laser comes out could be a very good idea.

 

[Bones0]

That he did, and I did not adapt well like a scrublet.


Reading this post gave me an interesting thought. What if Marth made a very slight hesitation before committing to WD/dash back? I think at the range Falco sits at when he lasers then approaches he could still be counter punished by Marth for trying to attack anyway but Marth's always get antsy due to worry about getting hit(as you mentioned) and give up lots of little mixup opportunities that could be available in that span of time/space.

My particular struggle with the strategy was that I never went forward. I just assumed Mango would try to come into me like he did in friendlies, but he was content to push me to the edge. I specifically remember him lagging on coming in at a few points and realized sticking a WD OOS back to WD in Ftilt/jab/possibly Nair could have given me great rewards.

For some reason this reminded me of the way a lot of Samuses move. They seem to do a lot of feints with a quick dash forward and then WD back before setting up a counter; more so than other characters. I mean obviously Marths shouldn't start trying to emulate Samus movement but maybe there's something to be learned there. After all people who play Samus are tricksy *******s, so maybe marths need to be more creative in their movement?

Damn it! I was going to suggest dashing forward before the WD. As a Falco, I'd probably try to get my aerial out asap when I see Marth move towards me, and then a WD back would catch my aerial that I used earlier than if you had simply dashed away.

 

[ShroudedOne]

KP, do you mean to say that Falco can just spam lasers at Marth and Marth can't do anything about it? Or am I misreading you?

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

Use of platforms? Preferred over the ground or not? Take to the air or take to the ground to combat the bird?

General rule of thumb. Mix it up.

 

[knightpraetor]

i just said exactly what marth can do, he can powershield it, he can FH (REALLY Fing stupid idea, but i saw some marths using it back in 2010 and everyone was rambling how good they were at the matchup till they play a top falco and get 4 stocked for being stupid), he can sit in shield and then wd back or fair out of shield at good times (how i usually play since every falco i have played other than PP doesn't know how to react to OOS options properly so you can win just off of this alone) or marth can eat the laser at a spacing that is good for marth.

And of course falco can't keep spamming lasers like a stupid idiot when neutral is broken. THe problem with most laser campy falcos is they have no actual game outside the lasers so they continue trying to dash away and laser when marth is on top of them.

The bigger issue is that the matchup does not start at neutral for marth when playing against falco. assuming falco spaces his laser properly while coming in, marth must either powershield or eat the laser to achieve neutral.

Moreover, if you dash back to eat the laser/powershield and he didn't laser you lose stage space, which really hurts marth when you aren't on FD/PS (note that I beat PP in 3/9 of my friendlies with him and 1/3 in tourney and all of my wins were on FD/PS where I didn't run out of stage to deal with the lasers by moving back)

anyway none of this matters anymore cause i'm dropping marth probably except vs fox, jiggs and falcon. I think marth probably has a better matchup than peach on fox and marth but peach seems better since there aren't many jiggs/sheiks.

I don't agree with the current fox being impossibly bad for peach opinion. I think it's maybe 55/45 at pro level in fox's favor. But outside of the top ten players who have perfect tech skill and movement it's probably even

 

[Bones0]

I agree with most of what you are saying, KP, but I feel like it only applies when you let Falco space super far, which shouldn't happen that often. If Marth is near Falco in general, Falco just doesn't have time to pull off a SHL. Even if you're ******** when it comes to moving out of laser stun after they hit you, you can easily just hold forward and ftilt asap and they'll get hit. That specific method isn't particularly good or anything, but I guess what I'm getting at is Marth should just try to stay near Falco most of the match anyway. The only times he can consistently increase the space between them is when he hits Marth away, and he's going to want to followup on those opportunities anyway. If you find Falco running away from you constantly, try spamming dash attack because apparently **** that works vs. everyone. I think wavedtilt is better and safer though (can't say I've tested either myself though).

People should try more Counter OoS or WD forward into Counter. Also, shai drop fair provides a great downward movement from plats that gives Marth so many more options. Everyone knows Marth's ability to get down off of plats is shaky at best, but you also obviously want to use plats to avoid lasers and close space while they whiff under you. The best ways to do that are to just jump and WL off the plat, but if that gets predictable you can shai drop to come down sooner. As a Falco, when I see Marth on a plat I always want to get under him, but if the Marth is able to shai drop fair at any point, running towards him from mid becomes super risky because once I commit to getting under him there's no way to avoid a proper shai drop fair. If Marth is baited into doing the fair, then you just play it off as if you had late faired. You'll have minimal lag, and Falco won't be able to do anything except shoot another laser.

I also think Marths should focus more on getting the obvious lasers. I feel like too often people try to PS 100% of the time, and it's just not worth it. Even if you can do it, all it does is put you in the mindset of shielding when Falco does something, and most of the lasers you will not be able to followup directly out of the PS. I think abusing the frame traps Marth has like the late fair situation above is a much better way at getting mileage out of a few PSs instead of spamming them and hoping to be rewarded through intimidation or something less tangible than a grab. I get hit by PSed lasers all the time, so the few other players I've played that PS seem a little surprised that I don't completely freak out every time they land one. I will just move or shield appropriately and often get an easy counter attack because they assumed they had a free punish.


If you drop Marth you're a *****. Your Marth is so sexy.

 

[Dr Peepee]

dashing backwards isn't inherently bad. if falco believes you're giving up space then he comes in, meaning your dash back can be a solid bait. plus, getting a hit or grab by the edge in that way can be more rewarding.

 

[knightpraetor]

it isn't inherently bad if you have a large stage...it matters way too much on the small stages.

also, it pigeonsholes marth into his ground game when he dashes back meaning that even though you are right and marth can fight by occasionally faking dash back into instant attack if he thinks falco will come in without lasers..falco will be facing towards marth as he dashes back..no late fair/nair game available..falco has all his baits but marths position prevents him from having most of his options available..and if marth eats the laser while moving forward without a powershield he will be pinned in shield and forced to roll or use defensive options..so a 50/50 to getting pinned or getting a neutral position for marth, while 50% of the time (assuming perfect marth powershielding) falco has to deal with a powershield and 50% of the time he has taken stage space and removed marth's air game. He shouldn't be close enough to allow marth a guaranteed punish off the powershield either. The only marth can vary his spacings to get useful powershields against a falco like PP's that can actually space his lasers properly is if the marth can walk forward while powershielding..otherwise falco will just laser at the spacing for the easy dash back powershield lasers to be useless for marth.

Bones, I am well aware that once marth gets in it is fine. However, if you played PP for a few hours you would quickly realize that a 50/50 to get to neutral is pretty bad of a starting position. I mean if falcos just always started on the top platform of BF while marth started on the bottom I would be fine. But in the real world, top level players kill you off one exchange..they don't shoot their opening laser at some scrub spacing either or spam them like XXX ( name removed for niceness sake) while chillindude is right next to him.

Marth would **** falco if this were korea and we practiced standing powershields 6 hrs a day for 2 weeks before going into a match and had sets scheduled days ahead so we only prepared for one matchup. But I don't get that kind of practice. Even when I played with mahone 30+ hrs a week we never spent time training boring stuff like that. He hated testing things or drilling the techniques I actually needed. So we just played for fun. And I agree with his mentality. I don't think smash is worth the investment, so I'm not going to play a character that requires that investment to compete at pro level.

PS- dash attack is used instead of wd dtilt because the range is higher and the advantage you gain off a punish is higher. Both of them will lose if the falco came in instantly...WD dtilts only advantage that i've seen is at higher percents for sending them offstage (and it is better if the falco is in CC percents, but usually they are dashing so it doesn't matter unless they stop and Crouch randomly)

dash attack is strictly better in the midrange percents and probably better in the low percents as well unless the falco crouches randomly (which could get grabbed or result in the marth pinning the falco with an aerial)

Anyway I really want to see PP master powershielding and beat mango's falco. He doesn't use a claw grip meaning he can be the first decent marth to learn to light shield trick one of his shield buttons to have a good powershield and then use the other one for normal shielding and light shielding. It would be hard to learn but it might even change the matchup.

However, I'm not going to spend several weeks switching my grip on the off chance it will make my char more viable in one matchup. I'd rather just learn a new character. It's between peach and falco, but there are too many falcos so i think peach will be more fun than dittoing all day.

@bones
good marths are very aware of what spacing the falco is at when powershielding. At mid ranges you need to hold the shield to get your WD out grab. at short range you need to hold your shield and sh out after the powershield and at long range you need to be ready to wd down if you missed the powershield or just use tap powershields (what i choose) since if you miss the powershield you want to be able to try again instantly on the next laser. THe latter method allows marth to powershield more of the lasers at long range, the former eats up space faster but can get marth trapped in shield if he attempts the powershield and WD down again before the 2nd laser..those few frames sometimes mean the difference between eating the 2nd laser or being able to attempt another powershield.


edit: counter is bad from neutral and from shield. Always. Just look at the risk reward logically and look at its OOS frame data

 

[ShroudedOne]

I don't think, no I'm pretty sure, that Marth/Falco isn't bad enough to require a secondary.

I think you're trying to look at Marth/Falco from the highest level possible (which is fine), but the subtleties in the matchup that you're describing don't really matter until you are at the level where Falcos are like PP or Mango. So why switch now?

Peach/Falco is definitly easy-mode, though. Just ask PP.

 

[Dr Peepee]

@kp:

marth is stuck on ground game vs falcon too for the most part and he does fine vs falcon. that's not a big deal at all.
dashing forward and eating a laser should not mean instant shield always. if it does, then you are fearing the laser. if falco is always attacking/grabbing after he hits you with a laser then you get a free in on him but not if he is mixing up movement and direct attacks, that is just good form and you have to manipulate the game then partially by not always shielding when you get lasered.

I may try to master PS'ing over winter break.


@shrouded: oh I get it

 

[Bones0]

I may try to master PS'ing over winter break.

You are such a badass, PP.

 

[Mahie]

Anyway I really want to see PP master powershielding and beat mango's falco. He doesn't use a claw grip meaning he can be the first decent marth to learn to light shield trick one of his shield buttons to have a good powershield and then use the other one for normal shielding and light shielding. It would be hard to learn but it might even change the matchup.

To be honest, I do that already, and that gives me close-to-100% PS rate on projectiles above crouch level. And yes, it does changes a lot, e.g. in the Samus MU : http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=MgV3_uUgxh0#t=792s

Same against Peach, same against Falco players who are "bad" at lasering (And Mango is in this category, he lasers high way too much)

People should really learn to Crouch PS properly. You can use it to punish nair/dair approaches from spacies too.

 

[OverLord]

I don't know, actually it's true you powershield a lot, but your crouching makes it telegraphed, a bit of dash away and shield (Leffen's way) it's much more reliable overall, and gives you even better results because it works for lasers at any height.

If you can react to Falco's gun coming out, and be quick and smooth on your movement after the powershield, you actually get to use a pseudo-dash dance; it gives Marth a solid tool in the neutral game, and most Falcos really can't do **** and just get wrecked.