Important Carefully Ask PPMD about the Tiara Guy

[knightpraetor]

yeah you guys should rematch and record it this time so i can watch and learn more stuff. austin, ICs, peach or sheik. who should i secondary?

 

[AustinRC]

Idk lol

 

[Bones0]

Whoever you have the most fun with.

 

[Tee ay eye]

why do you need a secondary

 

[Mahie]

Is there a list of all the guaranteed things Marth has from grabs?

 

[Tee ay eye]

he has guaranteed throws from grabs

 

[Bones0]

He also has guaranteed grabs from throws.

What a broken character.

 

[Mahone]

You guys finally figured out his infinite... took you long enough

 

[knightpraetor]

sheik is too hard tai. i would pull out ICs instead of peach but I also hate fighting falco and find that while I do bout the same with peach it's a lot less work..not spending the whole match moving around lasers is a lot more fun and less stressful.

But maybe peach vs sheik really isn't that much better than marth vs sheik. I don't know. jiggs, ICs or fox/falco are probably the best marth secondaries, but I like peach. and you can edgeguard sheik with peach.

 

[MasterShake]

Can marth regrab from a dthrow if they DI in. Any reasonable %. Not jiggs. Like sheik, ICs, spacies. Can't really test myself atm.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Marth's dash dance is hard to read sometimes.

I need a cheat sheet.

I wish ground needles were JCable.

KP, Sheik dittoing the Sheiks is an underrated strategy. Out of the three you listed I think she's the best secondary. She's a strictly better character than Peach and ICs and she doesn't have a super bizarre style you need to learn either. Most Sheiks are god awful at the ditto too, which is handy for a secondary. She can also fight everything.

Secondary Peach is mostly for FD vs spacies if your current character doesn't have a CG on them there, for ICs and other random awkward characters (Samus, Pikachu) if your main sucks against them or has a rough time vs them if you don't know how to fight them. It's also for Midwest rulesets where Brinstar and Mute City are legal. She's best paired with spacies or Sheik IMO because of what she covers. Marth is fine vs ICs and those odd characters and he has one of the best games vs spacies on FD. So why bother? I think Marth is better vs Sheik than Peach at high level too tbh. Marth can leverage a mobility advantage over Sheik with dash dance and has more grab range (important when dealing with her normals and such), Peach just sort of loses the MU in every respect except her recovery is better.

I don't think secondary ICs is a good idea at all. And neither is secondary Puff. Their styles are so unique and odd that most of what you've learned with Marth won't be too applicable to them. Moreover, they have such steep learning curves with their unique movement and for ICs super specific combos. And you're getting a 55-45 advantage for all this effort. Might as well just Sheik ditto IMO since she's easier to pick up and there's nothing really to the Sheik ditto. You're also less prone to getting ***** by slob picks if you lose the double blind or they have a secondary.

 

[Bones0]

Does anyone actually cp Sheik and then chain grab the Sheik main? lol

 

[.Chipmunk.]

Fox

Seriously Fox

 

[knightpraetor]

i guess my issue with dittoing is that i don't really believe non-mains are likely to beat someone with a secondary in the ditto. I guess that is just my general feeling from marth dittoing but people who don't main marth have to be better than me by a bit to even have a chance. when i play people near equal level and they want to marth ditto (they always want to ditto me for some reason) the matchup feels a lot easier because they are just doing what I'm doing, but doing it worse. I feel like if i played sheik to ditto i would never beat a sheik main unless they were just strictly worse than me.

 

[Divinokage]

Umm.. isn't that kind of obvious for mirror matches? The better user of the character will win. But it's possible to beat someone else in their own game by training a lot of characters rather than just one. At least, that's what I want to do. It sounds fun to me... If they cant beat their own character then the loss has to be devastating for them.. hehe.

 

[Bones0]

This is why I'm going Ganon vs. Kage at Apex. He'll never expect it.

 

[Divinokage]

Well good thing no one can beat me in that matchup but i will do the same vs others and then ill be unbeatable in every mirror!

 

[Bones0]

If you ever use anyone but Ganon in tournament, Melee will truly be dead. I hope you can live with that on your conscience. Otherwise, go Ganon, *****.

 

[Van.]

Well good thing no one can beat me in that matchup but i will do the same vs others and then ill be unbeatable in every mirror!

Oh really? Odd because from watching the two of you linguini seems strictly surperior in just about every single matchup, so this is a little surprising.

i mean good **** if you beat him in dittos, its just not what i was expecting

 

[Bones0]

Shots. Fired.

 

[Deleted member]

marth doesn't need a secondary. if you want to play one, pick someone you have fun with because it doesn't actually matter.

 

[Dart!]

he has guaranteed throws from grabs

He also has guaranteed grabs from throws.

What a broken character.

Extremely broken.

 

[Divinokage]

Oh really? Odd because from watching the two of you linguini seems strictly surperior in just about every single matchup, so this is a little surprising.

i mean good **** if you beat him in dittos, its just not what i was expecting

Coming from a FL player, I'm not surprised you would be biased for him but the reality is i've done much more in general or outplaced him everytime we were both at a tourney. And you have no idea what you are talking about.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Does anyone actually cp Sheik and then chain grab the Sheik main? lol

A local Toronto player who went by the tag "Ambrose" used to do it vs me in 2008 actually lol. I've also seen Cosmo do it. I also remember this one time in my basement in like 2008 or 2009 when I was playing I.B in friendlies. I ***** his Marth for a while but then he went Sheik (and we ditto'd, obviously) and he started winning the majority of the matches from there and I got super duper salty. I was so mad. Lolz. I sucked at Sheik dittos at the time. Later, Unknown actually asked him why he didn't just ditto me in tournament (since I had like a 17-2 record or something ridiculous with him) but apparently it was a mix of pride and he admitted he couldn't do the CG but I can so he figured he'd lose because of gayness if it ever came down to it.

Anyway, I've sort of gone off on a tangent. Moral of the story: I think it's an underrated gimmick and it can probably be turned into a real strategy because Sheik is a good character. Secondaries for the most part are generally a form of cheese and what's cheesier than inescapable death grabs? Not much, that's for sure. Most Sheiks are also really bad at the CG, so if you just learn it perfectly you actually have a big edge. I think only me and M2K can do it from 0-death reliably in terms of North American Sheiks that I'm aware of. And we always opt to play without it anyway because of how dumb it is.

 

[Bones0]

I wasn't actually aware it had any level of difficulty. lol

 

[Strong Badam]

LOL
people that think sheik's CGs on semi-FFers are easy annoy me so much
god that regrab at 0 is hard

 

[KirbyKaze]

A lot of people don't understand anything about Sheik at all

You just kind of learn to smile and nod when they say things that are blatantly wrong

You'll never convince them

 

[Bones0]

Damn, good try KP. You definitely were in the groove at a couple of points throughout the set (first stock of game 2 mirite?!), but it seemed like you made the occasional decision that seemed out of character for your style (like game 1 you did some random double bair edge guard attempt and ended up getting reversal'd). Only advice I can really add is to maybe try using a little up-B OoS when he's in ridiculous high %s and grab is no longer helping (8:45).


Vs. Epsilon, you should try PSing turnips like the ones at 3:10, 3:55, 4:50, 6:20. I also thought there were a few times you could have used side-B -> utilt to finish him off.

 

[ShroudedOne]

LOL
people that think sheik's CGs on semi-FFers are easy annoy me so much
god that regrab at 0 is hard

Dude...that character is hard.

At least, if you want to play her the non-noob way.

 

[knightpraetor]

" (like game 1 you did some random double bair edge guard attempt and ended up getting reversal'd)."

yeah looks like i hard predicted a DJ or early up B, i will remember in the future that i have to get fully horizontal before i try something like that or they will just sit under it and then kill me

why am i so freaking bad..even the match i 2 stocked him in i made over 50 mistakes. The vs fox i have excuses for as I haven't been playing it much lately, but how can my vs sheik still be this awful

 

[KirbyKaze]

I dunno you basically kill-maimed him on FD. You clearly have the ability to win this. I doubt it'll be productive to berate yourself so hard over your mistakes after the fact; rather, what can you do to fix them?

And (and you may not believe me on this one but) nobody plays a perfect match, let alone a perfect set (seriously; this game is ludicrously demanding and even with slower paced characters like Marth and Sheik the interactions are really sophisticated and require a lot of attention to detail as your level increases). Wanting to iron over your small technique errors so you can play very close to how you're playing in your head is an admirable goal, but understand that things just inevitably get lost in translation when you're communicating between brain and hands (particularly in a high stress environment with an emotional charge hanging overhead) and it happens to everyone.

Also, Sheik is hard but I think with some simplified edgeguards on her (when they're appropriate) and greater emphasis on maintaining strong composure (flailing when she starts reaching high damage makes me cringe) your future endeavors against her will be a lot easier.

 

[Redd]

KP did really well. We're both REALLY rusty but I'm still glad to see him finally take a game. <3

ALSO LOOK AT DAT FOX. Gawd I'm bad.

 

[Divinokage]

I dunno you basically kill-maimed him on FD. You clearly have the ability to win this. I doubt it'll be productive to berate yourself so hard over your mistakes after the fact; rather, what can you do to fix them?

And (and you may not believe me on this one but) nobody plays a perfect match, let alone a perfect set (seriously; this game is ludicrously demanding and even with slower paced characters like Marth and Sheik the interactions are really sophisticated and require a lot of attention to detail as your level increases). Wanting to iron over your small technique errors so you can play very close to how you're playing in your head is an admirable goal, but understand that things just inevitably get lost in translation when you're communicating between brain and hands (particularly in a high stress environment with an emotional charge hanging overhead) and it happens to everyone.

Also, Sheik is hard but I think with some simplified edgeguards on her (when they're appropriate) and greater emphasis on maintaining strong composure (flailing when she starts reaching high damage makes me cringe) your future endeavors against her will be a lot easier.

Well I wouldn't say just this game, even in any competitive gaming.. someone will choke just a little bit or drop combos.. etc. And then the dude can get completely owned because of it. It can happen at anytime so it's always on you to try to regain your footing and punish him heavily instead because of his mistake, you should never despair even if you get 0-death. You can easily just as well return the favor.

 

[Redd]

Well I wouldn't say just this game, even in any competitive gaming.. someone will choke just a little bit or drop combos.. etc. And then the dude can get completely owned because of it. It can happen at anytime so it's always on you to try to regain your footing and punish him heavily instead because of his mistake, you should never despair even if you get 0-death. You can easily just as well return the favor.

Every stock is a new game. Aw yeah Kage!

 

[Divinokage]

Every stock is a new game. Aw yeah Kage!

Oh ya definitely! Think of yourself as a cat though you only have 4 lives. =P

 

[Van.]

Coming from a FL player, I'm not surprised you would be biased for him but the reality is i've done much more in general or outplaced him everytime we were both at a tourney. And you have no idea what you are talking about.

look at how you've done against common opponents tho'

PP is the main thing thats in my mind right now

 

[Divinokage]

look at how you've done against common opponents tho'

PP is the main thing thats in my mind right now

Im sorry if my style doesnt allow me to 4 stock lower skilled players, that just isn't happening but in the end it's the win that matters... Who are you talking about common opponents? If you say someone like Hax/Axe are common then I cant really say anymore.

 

[Van.]

"Common" opponents means players you've both played. You've both played PP recently (well... kind of recently), and he did alot better than you

Incidentally Axe is an opponent you share, and you absolutely out performed linguini vs. him, but imo not as much as linguini outperformed you vs. PP

You also have the win vs. Hax, which imo is hands down the most impressive win between the two of you, so i'll give you that. I doubt linguini could have done it

Linguini also has lots of ganons in FL to practice against, I don't know any besides you in Canada

I'm just surprised that you think you beating him in that mu is a sure thing, i mean its def possible, but not a given by any means

 

[Divinokage]

Well if you want to put PP in the mix then I can just as well put Mango in too, gg. His best matchup is Falco, of course it was close but it's still not a win. If you really want me to give out the people i've beaten through out all the years then I would clearly win the debate.

 

[Bones0]

Less talk, more moonwalk.

Or you guys could just MM. A true warrior lets his fists do the talking.