Important Carefully Ask PPMD about the Tiara Guy

[Deleted member]

you can definitely trick someone without conditioning, partially because the game is decently fast.

that said, i'm not sure you can bait ANYTHING or i'd just encourage my opponent to suicide. ok maybe you can bait darkrain into suiciding. you get the idea lol

 

[Bones0]

No you dont, any action can be baited. You can just react to a dash, a jump, a move, a WD..

How can you bait something without conditioning? Baits are based off of abusing what they believe will happen. Even at the very beginning of a set players are not blank slates. People are conditioned before the match even starts by all of their previous experiences. If you stand still in the beginning as they DD, they are going to predict your motive based on how most people behave in that situation.

 

[♡ⓛⓞⓥⓔ♡]

This guys pretty good vs. Sheik

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jAl2V7AU4vI&feature=plcp

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dj30jhr_LaE&feature=plcp

 

[Mahie]

How can you bait something without conditioning? Baits are based off of abusing what they believe will happen. Even at the very beginning of a set players are not blank slates. People are conditioned before the match even starts by all of their previous experiences. If you stand still in the beginning as they DD, they are going to predict your motive based on how most people behave in that situation.

Players are all , to an extent, conditioned by the metagame. Pioneers are but a handful, and most people follow the others and thus, their reactions become predictable. It's just like a big flowchart, you don't really need to know if you can react to all the options your opponent has at a certain time, and that's achieved through option select, be it proper whiffing or plain and accurate dash dancing, which is one of Marth's strengths.

 

[Construct]

yeah when he said random nairs i immediately thought about how i used to throw out truly "random" nairs vs fox. However, now I just use it as a bait.
most marths adopt nair usage from seeing m2k's massive use of nair in the matchup, but at first they don't know how to make use of it and just spam because that is what it seems like m2k is doing at times..but AC nair is marth's main frame trap (finally got to use that word lol); a really good fox will know whether he has time to get a guaranteed punish or not, but most foxes really go aggro when they see a marth miss a nair.

Can you please elaborate on this a little? I'm pretty sure I'm still at the random nair phase.

 

[I R MarF]

What kind of follow ups are guaranteed from shffled non-tipped fairs and at/to what percent on space animals?

 

[.Chipmunk.]

Now that someone has brought up the topic of AC nair, can I get a more detailed idea of how exactly one is to do it? Like, do you fast fall right away or is there a delay, etc. The only time I seem to be able to do it is when I wait till after the second slicing sound of nair to hit down and I don't see a way for me to press neutral A any faster once I leave the ground. If I do, usually I just jump cause I've hit it during jump lag (before I've left the ground).

 

[knightpraetor]

"How can you bait something without conditioning? Baits are based off of abusing what they believe will happen."

you just move in such a way as that your movement telegraphs some likely move of yours. if the opponent doesn't believe that your bait is real it is obviously advantageous to them. However, if they think that your movement is a bait but it ends up not being a bait they often lose stage control or get wrecked so they have a lot of desire to believe that you just came in with an AC nair and missed.

as for what AC nair is..it is godlike. I feel like ending the post at that, but basically you just sh nair rising and then fastfall at a proper point (I do it with a delay because i don't want my fall to be so fast that i occasionally don't AC. However, I believe if you time it perfectly you may not have to delay) so that you land right as the nair is ending. it suffers some weaknesses as an actual approach on fox because he's too freaking short, but i like to mix in actual nair approaches when the fox isn't taking the bait.

4 frames of lag is nothing. it's the whole reason why peach is broken..why falco can camp autocancel bairs once he's boxed jiggs at the ledge (one of many reasons why falco is better than fox...damn i said it)

that said, fox has some good counters to AC nair, which I will not describe as I despise fox players, but I'm sure any reasonably intelligent people will think of the main one and all the ways that marth needs to adapt to deal with it.

A few notes: AC nair's fastfall time on a nair moving forward with full momentum vs the bait type nair is different..basically the fastfall needs to be delayed if you sh naired moving forward and then held backwards to DI away. I'm not sure why this is, but based on several hours of practicing them it appears to be the case. Also hitting an opponent may slow you down so in those cases you shouldn't fastfall as fast. Though if i think i'm going to hit an opponent oftentimes i fastfall the nair early and L-cancel so that fox doesn't run under the nair.

Why does nair baiting work? the fundamental issue is that fox wants to run in and hit you but must respect your nair. if he gives you the space necessary to actually avoid getting hit by your aerials if you actually approached then he cannot also be at a spacing where he can run in and punish your nair if you fade back afterwards. If he is amazing at dashdancing he should be able to pinpoint millimeter turns into punishing the nair, but if he is doing this he is not really respecting the fact that you could move forward while doing aerials and you should probably just approach.

Fox tends to get boxed out at the ledge and then wants to get back in, but if marth is camping dashdance into AC nair at the right range fox is required to dash forward, dash back to avoid the nair and then dash back in immediately (even then, 4 frames of lag is not enough to guarantee a punish). Moreover he can't know for certain whether you will fade back your nair or just come in so he is taking a risk by choosing to attempt to punish you out of his dashdance.

marths often just go straight into pivot grab if they see the fox chasing after the nair because they aren't really in a real amount of lag.

Anyway this is just one more tool at marth's disposal. it's particularly good when fox is boxed out at the edge. I'm not sure how good it is, as sometimes when watching pp, i think that maybe if i just dashdanced perfectly all the time is better..but this is definitely a lot easier to do. and 4 frames of lag allows marth to dtilt to punish them from coming in even if they are at a proper spacing. So many guessing games from fox's perspective. He really needs a godlike dashdance game to bait out marth's options at all. And if you do happen to be facing a fox who has that kind of control of his dash and nair spacings...then you should probably just approach once you've conditioned him to respect your aerial game

edit: i was about to be really jealous because falco can wall with his bair without the fine control and dashing needed by marth...then i remembered that falco falls over from aerial shines...yeah i'll pass on that. But everything I wrote here can be used by falco as well. there is a reason people always seem to be sitting at the ledge when pp approaches with falco and then they get wrecked.

edit2: don't do AC nairs too close or on a fox who is just standing out of range every time. adapt and actually go in. else you'll just get dash grab upthrown a million times. I remember i went through that phase..it's not pretty, but at least your smash DI on his upairs may get better

 

[clowsui]

"How can you bait something without conditioning? Baits are based off of abusing what they believe will happen."

you just move in such a way as that your movement telegraphs some likely move of yours. if the opponent doesn't believe that your bait is real it is obviously advantageous to them. However, if they think that your movement is a bait but it ends up not being a bait they often lose stage control or get wrecked so they have a lot of desire to believe that you just came in with an AC nair and missed.

this and what mow was saying pretty much answers the question of "bait without conditioning". the flexibility (in both degree and speed) of movement in this game allows for someone to provoke actions/movements even without time to condition.

as for what AC nair is..it is godlike. I feel like ending the post at that, but basically you just sh nair rising and then fastfall at a proper point (I do it with a delay because i don't want my fall to be so fast that i occasionally don't AC. However, I believe if you time it perfectly you may not have to delay) so that you land right as the nair is ending. it suffers some weaknesses as an actual approach on fox because he's too freaking short, but i like to mix in actual nair approaches when the fox isn't taking the bait.

i think actual nair approaches are dangerous vs fox irrespective of baiting scenario. i mean based on what you've described there is a discernible difference between the "bait" nair and the non-bait/approach nair. once the fox recognizes this trick, why should he have to microspace his approach when he could just run away and laser? i mean look marth gets ***** every time he jumps vs fox without a setup LOL and this manuever appears to be (and experientially for me) is not even a setup. if this is confusing i guess what i want to say is "why should fox rely on attacking you straight up and approaching when he can just rely on laser laser counter hit repeat"?

A few notes: AC nair's fastfall time on a nair moving forward with full momentum vs the bait type nair is different..basically the fastfall needs to be delayed if you sh naired moving forward and then held backwards to DI away.

works the same way in brawl, not sure why. i think it's because the game registers your momentum going forward and does not allow you to change your trajectory until you've sufficiently completed your forward momentum.

Why does nair baiting work? the fundamental issue is that fox wants to run in and hit you but must respect your nair. if he gives you the space necessary to actually avoid getting hit by your aerials if you actually approached then he cannot also be at a spacing where he can run in and punish your nair if you fade back afterwards. If he is amazing at dashdancing he should be able to pinpoint millimeter turns into punishing the nair, but if he is doing this he is not really respecting the fact that you could move forward while doing aerials and you should probably just approach.

once again there seems to be an assumption that fox WANTS to run in and hit you but WHY he has to isn't particularly clear. IMO fox does not even want to run in and hit you. he wants to use his movement options and his ranged option (ie laser) to provoke a response from marth so he can microspace and win on prediction or counter hit and win on reaction.

now IN the case that fox approaches for whatever reason, the third sentence is accurate...until the fox decides to stop coming in. the reaction window is sufficient such that fox can change his decision to come in (although he has to be pretty good at moving and reacting...and he has to not be afraid of marth when he is acting second in a situation where marth is close).

as for fox dash dancing i don't believe that he has to respect marth's ability to come in doing aerials >_> marth doing an aerial does not sufficiently act as pressure vs fox given fox's DD + nair/bair (to a certain extent)/dash attack (to a certain extent).

Fox tends to get boxed out at the ledge and then wants to get back in, but if marth is camping dashdance into AC nair at the right range fox is required to dash forward, dash back to avoid the nair and then dash back in immediately (even then, 4 frames of lag is not enough to guarantee a punish). Moreover he can't know for certain whether you will fade back your nair or just come in so he is taking a risk by choosing to attempt to punish you out of his dashdance.

OK this is a situation where AC nair is particularly useful and renders quite a few of my points before moot. you should've mentioned this from the start!

marths often just go straight into pivot grab if they see the fox chasing after the nair because they aren't really in a real amount of lag.

then marths are stupid LOL they have stage + limited fox's movement, pressure should be the #1 goal here not a read that punishes overcommitment

Anyway this is just one more tool at marth's disposal. it's particularly good when fox is boxed out at the edge. I'm not sure how good it is, as sometimes when watching pp, i think that maybe if i just dashdanced perfectly all the time is better..but this is definitely a lot easier to do. and 4 frames of lag allows marth to dtilt to punish them from coming in even if they are at a proper spacing. So many guessing games from fox's perspective. He really needs a godlike dashdance game to bait out marth's options at all. And if you do happen to be facing a fox who has that kind of control of his dash and nair spacings...then you should probably just approach once you've conditioned him to respect your aerial game

this paragraph goes all over the place.

4 frames of lag means that fox needs to have tighter timings and gives marth more leeway to play around with timing BUT the low punish window/flexibility of the move does not actually do marth any favors if fox plays a more counterhit kind of style. thus ac nair is severely inferior to better dash dancing because dash dancing does not require the fox to be greedy. there is no guessing game from fox's perspective because he does not have to ever make a distinct commitment to "proactive" vs "reactive" style gameplay given his movement + options out of said movement.

edit2: don't do AC nairs too close or on a fox who is just standing out of range every time. adapt and actually go in. else you'll just get dash grab upthrown a million times. I remember i went through that phase..it's not pretty, but at least your smash DI on his upairs may get better

"actually go in" = surprise tactic.

given scenario: fox stands outside of marth's effective range
yomi1 = you pre-empt fox's action and go into him
yomi2 = fox understands you want to go into him and DDs (away first), intending on counter hitting your aerial
yomi 3 = you pre-empt his attempt to counter hit setup and give up stage to punish his landing
yomi 4 = fox understands that it's just a bait and stops

at yomi2 and yomi 4 you only have a slight advantage at best, no advantage at worst (best = dumb fox, worst = smart fox). fox can run away, always, unless he is at the corner.

tl,dr: ac nair bait is strictly inferior to better dash dancing and should only be utilized as a situational bait at a higher level rather than a go-to option when fox is cornered

 

[Strong Badam]

marth is the answer I've been looking for

 

[knightpraetor]

yeah, i guess clowsui is right that AC nair doesn't really do much for you if the fox has a lot of room to camp retreating movements. I think you're underestimating how much space fox actually needs to be able to dodge a properly arced approach by marth on one of his aerials though.

Fox can't dodge away from marth more than twice on BF, YS, FoD. on other stages if they are running away like crazy a properly spaced dash attack deals with running away strats pretty easily. that or overshooting a grab.

honestly most foxes i have played are pretty aggro in general. only mahone and ray's fox in korea were actually patient.

as for that yomi stuff that i don't really understand since i don't play that game..i would just say that even in the situation that you use an ac nair at the right spacing and miss, you have taken 1cm of space and still have all of your dash dance options available to you. yes if they are strictly only dash dance camping you and barely using their nair then you probably shouldn't use this..

if fox is really only counter hitting anyway you should just anticipate his movement and slowly eat up space or overshoot grab/dash attack him. However, the foxes i've played all throw out a lot of moves and come in..they don't like getting grabbed much so they would rather try to overwhelm marth with pressure

 

[Bones0]

A few notes: AC nair's fastfall time on a nair moving forward with full momentum vs the bait type nair is different..basically the fastfall needs to be delayed if you sh naired moving forward and then held backwards to DI away. I'm not sure why this is, but based on several hours of practicing them it appears to be the case. Also hitting an opponent may slow you down so in those cases you shouldn't fastfall as fast. Though if i think i'm going to hit an opponent oftentimes i fastfall the nair early and L-cancel so that fox doesn't run under the nair.

Also, the main benefits I see for AC nair over DDing are:

1. You don't give up space (or at least not nearly as much) when you nair. If you are DDing and they move towards you as you dash away, you have address it immediately. If you nair and they don't approach, you're still in virtually the same neutral position as before the nair.

2. You are standing and facing them when you nair as opposed to dashing and potentially looking the other direction. If they approach as you land from nair, you have utilt, dtilt, jab, grab, and fair to defend yourself with. You ALSO have the option to begin DDing. If they approach as you dash away, you pretty much have to pivot grab. The only other things you could use are reverse side-B, jump-counter, and keep running or WDing away from them.

 

[knightpraetor]

yeah those are some good point bones...still i can't ever decide how to play..marth has too many options when he's playing against fox.

 

[Devil Ray]

honestly most foxes i have played are pretty aggro in general. only mahone and ray's fox in korea were actually patient.


if fox is really only counter hitting anyway you should just anticipate his movement and slowly eat up space or overshoot grab/dash attack him. However, the foxes i've played all throw out a lot of moves and come in..they don't like getting grabbed much so they would rather try to overwhelm marth with pressure

haha, was i that patient? i try to play smart with fox, and less tech flashy

fox and marth can camp each other pretty well, but marth can do so much more. all fox can do is get a grab or laser. even if fox nair shines, nothing is for sure to happen.

 

[rd1023]

I'm new here, I am switching to a marth main. My question is how do you approach fox's and falco's lasers or any character with projectiles in general?

 

[knightpraetor]

you ignore fox's lasers and you use reverse wavedashes from shield, powershielding, jumping out of shield and taking lasers and then moving instantly to deal with falco's laser game

 

[Bones0]

Basically what KP said, but it's obviously easier said than done. lol I think a good thing you can start on vs. Falco's lasers is learning to attack immediately after. If you SHFFL a fair (or any attack) and get lasered out of the air, being able to fair again immediately before you land is a huge benefit. I see a lot of Falcos get away with laser -> aerial or laser -> fsmash combos when the Marth could have simply faired after the laser's extremely short stun.

 

[MT_]

Just for the record, I am pretty sure if Falco times his laser correctly then he is able to fsmash you before you can really do anything (when falling). But this takes a little precision from Falco and being sure to try and fair him after getting hit by the laser like Bones said is still good to make sure you are keeping him honest with his timings and stuff.

 

[knightpraetor]

if falco times the laser really low it might work, but marth could just airdodge/reverse waveland if he didn't have time to fair

marth vs falco is too hard constantly having to adapt to various laser heights

 

[Bones0]

I'm pretty sure fsmash is too slow. You can test it in training mode (though I guess even if it's a few frames short of comboing it may still be faster than Marth's fair). He can definitely laser ftilt fast enough.

I wanna play your Marth so bad, KP. If you are going to RoM or Apex we have to play.

 

[knightpraetor]

lol, i dunno. but i should be up in nova for a wedding the first weekend of november so maybe we can play then. you are nova right?

I kind of need to get in another session with mahone though...i think my skill is only like 80% of what it used to be 1.5 months ago. but 5 hrs with mahone would bring it all back i think

just been busy, so there has been little time to smash

for example I can no longer powershield falco's lasers from the ledge on reaction 70% + of the time. mahone said you didn't believe..

i would feel horrible if i wasn't able to demonstrate that to you and was forced to just counter or something boring and risky like that

 

[Bones0]

lol, i dunno. but i should be up in nova for a wedding the first weekend of november so maybe we can play then. you are nova right?

I kind of need to get in another session with mahone though...i think my skill is only like 80% of what it used to be 1.5 months ago. but 5 hrs with mahone would bring it all back i think

just been busy, so there has been little time to smash

I live in NoMD (pronounced nomad).

Nomad:
A nomad is a person who moves from place to place as a way of obtaining Melee.

 

[knightpraetor]

oh i see lol. well i don't know if i will travel soon, but after this wedding is out of the way i should be free for several weekends. is there a tournament that weekend in nova?

I kind of want to go to rom but i hate hotel prices. we'll see whether i feel like wasting 200 bucks for a hotel...

i need friends in NY obviously.

anyone watch euphoria's set with unknown? it wasn't too bad..a couple failed recoveries where he could have lived and a few dropped edgeguards when fox should have been dead...if he had hit those they probably would have been close matches

 

[crush]

I live in NoMD (pronounced nomad).

Nomad:
A nomad is a person who moves from place to place as a way of obtaining Melee.

waow you dont even have a copy of melee hehe he noob!!



and you dont even know ewhere u live urself the location says jarretsville

 

[Bones0]

lol WTF @ that pic

 

[huMps]

I'm pretty sure you can't make laser stun to Fsmash unstoppable, even with perfect laser timing, spacing, or whatever else. Laser to perfectly spaced uptilt/ftilt is what you want to look out for( ftilt only at higher %s.) You either have to counter the laser or air dodge out of it's stun.

This all only applies to when marth is in the air obviously.

And if the falco is lasering really close to you when you're in the air, try FFUairing instead of Fair. The hit box gets to falco faster, and can turn his combo into yours very quickly.

 

[Ballin]

I'm new here, I am switching to a marth main. My question is how do you approach fox's and falco's lasers or any character with projectiles in general?

Fox: just dash dance close to them to make them scared of lasering.
Falco: is unstoppable.

 

[Niko45]

This guys pretty good vs. Sheik

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jAl2V7AU4vI&feature=plcp

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dj30jhr_LaE&feature=plcp

Haven't watched a video in months. Took me like 10 minutes to realize this was PAL. Gotta love the sexy blue marth.

 

[TheLake]

Tafokints vs pewpew or whatever the **** you spell their god damn names

Making low tiers look viable

 

[knightpraetor]

back up to like 95% of my normal skill level..won't be enough for sat's match with redd probably but maybe he is rusty too..any list minute advice vs sheik? if he goes fox I can probably win but most likely it will be more sheik practice.

 

[Bones0]

When you go to sleep tonight, just envision yourself uthrow-utilting and juggling uairs all game. Your spacing is perfect and you ARE Marth, not just controlling him with your controller.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

...wouldn't that be kinda weird, tho? Especially if you could chaingrab somebody?

Like ****ing oopsie-daisy or some ****.

Smooth Criminal

 

[MT_]

Is uthrow->utilt a true combo against Sheik or Marth at certain percents and DIs? Half the time I feel like it combos (particularly on strong DIs in or away from low to midlowish percentages) but the other half of the time it's like they can jump out of the utilt without any difficulty. Of course if you know they're always going to jump out then you can just follow their jump and **** them without a double jump but it would be nice to know if uthrow->utilt (or even fair, uair, etc) combos against Sheik or in the ditto.

 

[Bones0]

Even if you don't know if they can jump out and whiff your utilt, I doubt they can consistently get back down safely. Especially on FD with no plats to land on.

 

[ShroudedOne]

I believe it is a true combo on Sheik at 25% and up. Don't know about Marth.

 

[Redd]

back up to like 95% of my normal skill level..won't be enough for sat's match with redd probably but maybe he is rusty too..any list minute advice vs sheik? if he goes fox I can probably win but most likely it will be more sheik practice.

May go fox just to show you up. <3

 

[Niko45]

uthrow utilt is never a true combo on marth or sheik

 

[knightpraetor]

lol, well he did take a match i'm still not convinced though. your fox always only goes about even in win rate, but your sheik always wins. I sometimes take 1 round, but taking two in a row is so rare in that matchup. However, even pp barely beat you with marth, so how am i supposed to compete. Still, i'd rather get totally wrecked than have close matches with fox, as it gives me more video footage of stuff i need to work on

"uthrow utilt is never a true combo on marth or sheik"

never? i thought KK said he thought it comboed after 25% or something

 

[Dr Peepee]

Uthrow Utilt combos at a really wonky percentage like 18-21%ishh but it's a gamble usually anyway. Try SH'ing after the Uthrow and then Uair'ing if they fall, DJ Uair'ing if they DJ(Ken did this vs KDJ it was cool), or land and then Utilt/Uair as they fall down for a more guaranteed followup(but harder airdodge mixups to catch).

 

[Redd]

This is true.

KEVIN REMATCH PLZ I had your ***. <33333