Important Carefully Ask PPMD about the Tiara Guy

[Tee ay eye]

i think marth's d-air has a lot of untapped potential

although i'm not sure if i'm actually ON TO something or if i've been away from the game for so long that bad ideas start seeming to make sense

 

[Theftz22]

I actually like dair out of shield.

 

[Bl00dyBizkitz]

I actually like dair out of shield.

I do that too. Then I remember he's at 20% and isn't going to be knocked down. Then I get grabbed.

But at mid-high percents it's a nice OOS option.

 

[Bl00dyBizkitz]

I like how I'm talking like I know how to play this game, because I really don't lol.

 

[Theftz22]

It does have a lot of stun though, enough that if you do a sort of retreating SHFFL'd dair OOS it shouldn't be punishable provided it connects. Of course, this might not be the case if it gets CCed, but really I only use this under shield pressure (though occasionally it is a better punish option for random shielded hits than a grab given that they are at a high %).

The real advantage is that it hits in that spot when your opponent is directly on you that no other moves will and that your opponent usually doesn't expect from marth.

But I don't really know how to play this game either.

 

[Deleted member]

i think marth's d-air has a lot of untapped potential

although i'm not sure if i'm actually ON TO something or if i've been away from the game for so long that bad ideas start seeming to make sense

it could definitely go either way, but don't throw the idea away unless you're certain it is bad. what have you been thinking?

 

[Max?]

Just watched some recent PewPewU vids. Dude is a freaking beast, sooo impressed by him

 

[Ballin]

99% of the time i use Dair to cover the tech-in option.
well that and for adding style to my combos.

 

[Ballin]

99% of the time i use Dair to cover the tech-in option.
well that and for adding style to my combos.

shout outs to lvl 9 CPU training.

 

[.Chipmunk.]

shout outs to lvl 9 CPU training.

No. Never shout that out. Ever.

 

[knightpraetor]

Marth/Peach can be pretty dumb for Princess Toadstool, I'm realizing. I got to play this from the other side a bit the other day. It's just dashing, dtilt, uthrow, and not swinging like a dummy, lol. Why does half the community think this is almost even, again?

by this logic, i guess i should just assume peach vs marth is 90:10 peach based on how badly i wrecked mahone's marth last weekend. The marth dittos were so much harder.

also, did you really beat someone with marth that you wouldn't have wrecked completely with peach as well? In general, character has far less influence on wins than overall skill level

i feel like everyone picks up some char they have a hard time against and then beats someone they could already beat and then they just tell themselves how much easier it is on the other side.

and your question seems too vague. Peach can force marth to approach. peach has good aerial options and ground options against a marth that is approaching. peach's dash attack has enough range to make marth respect it once he leaves CC percent. Respecting peach's range makes it easier to take space and eventually corner marth.

I tend to think that marth has a hard time with sheik as well, but after playing my sheik vs a marth at my level for the first time the advantage seems slight at best....while needless to say the other 90 marths i've played all got 4 stocked because they were much worse than me. However, you can't judge a matchup by how easy it is to wreck people when they don't know what they are doing.

so even if sheik vs marth against a marth who doesn't know how to juggle or block sheik's ground game may be 100:0 and I destroy marths below my level, that doesn't imply anything about what it will be like at upper level.

Personally i have found most of the matchups in the top 6 to be 55:45 when watching videos and thinking about the options or considering how things are at my level..however, matchup conceptions are all theorycraft for those of us who aren't actually top 10 players.

Extending our personal theorycrafting to top level play instead of using results has obvious issues, but since most players cannot implement everything they consider optimal, it is inevitable that they will try to factor in what they think the matchup would be like if they were able to perform the matchup optimally. Even top level players will judge matchups based on a lot of theorycrafting because they will be unsatisfied with their performance in tournament and want to assume perfect play from both sides in the matchup, without really considering how difficult it is to perform that perfect play.

Honestly I think marth vs sheik is incredibly difficult to play perfectly, but how can I really know how difficult sheik's side is to perform perfectly when I have only played 2 rounds vs pp's marth (i 2 stocked him one game and got 3 stocked the 2nd. he played grounded the 2nd game which I have lately decided is probably the best bet if you are amazing at the grab game) and a half dozen rounds against some west coast marth that kept barely beating me on last hit. To really judge the matchup I would need to play it at a high level several dozen hours from both sides, which is pretty difficult since most people cannot even play both sides of the matchup at a high level

 

[ShroudedOne]

Haha, fair enough KP. It wasn't so much that I was wrecking them, or would've wrecked them with Peach (the matches themselves were about even) but I'm referring more to the strategies I was using against him. I felt the damage I took/stocks I lost were from my mistakes, not the MU. Otherwise, I would also think that Peach/Sheik is even, lol.

I guess it's easy to say from one side or the other "well, if I just do all of this, their character can't do anything," and overlook what advantages the other side has, and I guess that's what you're getting at. And I'm also not high level.

EDIT: Ah, now my waffles are burnt. Thanks.

 

[R2_GP]

I actually like dair out of shield.

wow i totally forgot about this! it should only be used when you are looking backwards though imo

 

[Deleted member]

Honestly I think marth vs sheik is incredibly difficult to play perfectly, but how can I really know how difficult sheik's side is to perform perfectly when I have only played 2 rounds vs pp's marth (i 2 stocked him one game and got 3 stocked the 2nd. he played grounded the 2nd game which I have lately decided is probably the best bet if you are amazing at the grab game) and a half dozen rounds against some west coast marth that kept barely beating me on last hit. To really judge the matchup I would need to play it at a high level several dozen hours from both sides, which is pretty difficult since most people cannot even play both sides of the matchup at a high level

pretty good points kp

what i've been saying this whole time is that marth needs to be playing the grab game from neutral to initiate his first hit game. the slow sword swings are just so easy to punish. marth is way easy when he does bad things, and when you tell these players that they are doing bad things, they get defensive and rationalize those bad decisions.

every marth does bad things to differing amounts. sometimes because of the speed that this game operates at, you are already in a poor position and you're forced to guess, and it's bad but that's how it goes. but there's really no excuse from neutral, when you haven't lost your position yet and you have the chance to leverage some kind of offensive momentum. this is where marth should be like 90% ground game and funnel his motions into grab or maybe a ******-proof aerial into grab.

i would imagine that shrouded thought the match was easy because he inadvertently didn't do bad things that tons of marth players do for no justifiable reason:

- any move that says "DASH ATTACK/GRAB ME HERE" like random sh nairs vs FOX's dashdance or landing in an l-canceled bair against peach anywhere
- using a sword move any time it's not guaranteed to hit, and hit favorably, and without positional set-up (everyone does this sometimes, myself included, but it's still bad)
- the desperation forward smash (same as above, but used so much it could be it's own thing)
- grabbing the opponent, auto-using forward throw when it sucks (most of the time) and then going back to sword moves

and that's not even counting the good things that you could be doing like attacking their attacks as a set-up option, downthrows to set up easy tech advantage, simple but highly effective traps because of the lack of range of motion that marth's sword hits give even on good DI, etc.

if your opponents all suck, it doesn't really give you any MU experience to begin with so you don't really have a point of reference. like as far as i can tell, sheik vs marth is actually decently close if the marth knows how to abuse sheik's sucky approach options and closes space well. the char is probably underrated vs peach too for the same reasons.

i'm still under the impression that marth beats peach...pretty solidly. the top tiers are much closer in performance than most are willing to admit, but it's still pretty clear that peach is both slower and has less range, and that the combination of those two things are quite problematic for her. i would say the same for sheik in NTSC.

shrouded, you could always try the ****** test. just camp turnips and try to stay grounded and shield camp and DI all throws straight down. if the marth sucks, you'll do much better than you deserve to.

 

[Tee ay eye]

- any move that says "DASH ATTACK/GRAB ME HERE" like random sh nairs vs FOX's dashdance or landing in an l-canceled bair against peach anywhere
- using a sword move any time it's not guaranteed to hit, and hit favorably, and without positional set-up (everyone does this sometimes, myself included, but it's still bad)

what do you think about intentionally missing a sword swing to bait your opponent into approaching? or is that what you meant by "positional set-up?"

 

[ShroudedOne]

i would imagine that shrouded thought the match was easy because he inadvertently didn't do bad things that tons of marth players do for no justifiable reason:

Yeah, I just didn't swing unless it was a clear hit. :\

shrouded, you could always try the ****** test. just camp turnips and try to stay grounded and shield camp and DI all throws straight down. if the marth sucks, you'll do much better than you deserve to.

I kinda want to learn how to play this game the effective way, LOL.

I also thought the DI for his throws was down + away? That seems to save me from death pretty much every time.

I'm also of the opinion that most top tier MUs aren't worse than 6-4, so I guess saying that Marth/Peach isn't close to even alongside that is misleading. I'll just say it's a solid win for him.

 

[Bones0]

I DI throws down and away in Marth dittos, so I think you're right. It probably doesn't matter much, but it's way easier to tech chase as Marth when they're landing right next to you.

 

[Mahone]

PPU is so ****ing good holy ****

if you read this ppu, i love you.

you almost know as much about marth as me and umbreon

and before you call me out for not having solved marth 83% (which i am confident i have), why dont u marth players at least listen to the advice i have to give without getting defensive... you stupid immature *****es

- Do not combo in such a way that will drop the combo, but instead end with your opponent offstage or dead
- Do not throw out aerials that will not hit your opponent and get you punished
- Do not throw out ground moves that will not hit your opponent and get you punished
- Do opt for having stage control over not having stage control
- Do space attacks in such a way that they hit your opponents
- Do not get hit off the stage or be put in a situation where you have to recover
- If hit off stage, DO attempt to recover
- Do talk to drpp everyday and teach him about marth regardless of how much experience/knowledge you have
- Do not contribute to smashboards in any meaningful way
- Do bash smashboards and its users and feel that you are better than other posters and not equally pathetic in every way


And before you ask me umbreon, no i am not that scrub that played -insert random color here- fox that you 4 stocked repeatedly with -insert random low tier here- at -insert obscure tourney in md/va here-

Also you still owe me 10 dollars *****

 

[Divinokage]

That all pretty much seems like general knowledge to me not just for Marth. Whiffing an attack can be deadly if you have no purpose while doing it.

 

[Cactuar]

Not gonna lie. I laughed. Might have gone over Kage's head.

 

[Divinokage]

Is there something I missed? lol.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

I love this thread right now. lol

Smooth Criminal

 

[Mahone]

Is there something I missed? lol.

I asked azen for advice on the sheik mu...

he gave me some TIPS.

 

[Bones0]

 

[Mahone]

Don't hide from it bones... EMBRACE IT.

 

[Bones0]

That is a metaphor for abusing grab at low percents, right?

 

[Twinkles]

Mah0wned =D =D

I really liked PPU's use of ledgehop reverse fair as an edgeguarding tool

 

[Deleted member]

what do you think about intentionally missing a sword swing to bait your opponent into approaching? or is that what you meant by "positional set-up?"

it's where you think you're going to hit the opponent from the neutral game with something that mimics positional advantage when you don't actually have it. so like your opponent is dash dancing, and on their dash away you run after and dtilt them. it's still technically the neutral game, you don't really have them actually at a disadvantage, but it's one of those fringe situations that maybe most people won't expect and you might get lucky and there's not much risk in doing so. what i'm really trying to get at is the difference between why this is acceptable and why say jumping at a grounded opponent with fair is pretty much never correct.

mahone can make fun of me or whatever, but it's a good point of the information. everything sounds dead ****ing obvious. the character is based around nuance and detail so describing why some things are ok and why some are bad is really difficult and highly contextual even if you understand it really well. so like i can say i learned a lot of the MU from azen in 2005- which sounds outdated but a lot of the relevant information still holds true even though the technical limitations have improved significantly. of course, they've improved for both characters though. so yeah a lot of what i put is obvious until you start paying attention to your bad habits or the things that are actually making you lose. like, the marth players here should be able to understand why this is bad marth play, and not just in the sense of wow armada is really good or he was outplayed.

it's possible that my delivery is flawed, people don't like hearing that they suck either. but IMO, i think understanding your place is a good way to move to another place, namely up that skill ladder, but it requires honesty and humility. atm these players just dismiss it and say that i'm a bad player, but like, they've been doing this for years. i don't need to play the game at all, it's just basic pattern recognition by now. even if i never played smash, i could point out the sucky players by their cognition and development ideals. a lot of the midrange players hear that they suck, get angry, and then continue to do what they've been doing all along, and it lends nothing to actual improvement. but some people get past their own initial egos, and those people usually end up thanking me later, so that's why i continue to deliver information the way i do.

 

[Bones0]

A top comment in that video:
"m2k plays to careful. He used to have heart." - Brookman


Just super saiyan.

 

[knightpraetor]

what do you think about intentionally missing a sword swing to bait your opponent into approaching? or is that what you meant by "positional set-up?"

yeah when he said random nairs i immediately thought about how i used to throw out truly "random" nairs vs fox. However, now I just use it as a bait.
most marths adopt nair usage from seeing m2k's massive use of nair in the matchup, but at first they don't know how to make use of it and just spam because that is what it seems like m2k is doing at times..but AC nair is marth's main frame trap (finally got to use that word lol); a really good fox will know whether he has time to get a guaranteed punish or not, but most foxes really go aggro when they see a marth miss a nair.

mahone's post was hilarious

also sh fair is an amazing approach that only sheik and peach do any decent job of dealing with, so I don't know what's with the hate on aerial approaches. Even vs sheik as long as you can combo for as much off your grab as she's getting off dash attacks then it is probably a worthwhile endeavor (unfortunately I don't think that I usually get as much off grabs on the platform stages as sheik can get off a dash attack launcher, so I tend to play more grounded on platform stages)

going in with only grab all the time gets a little predictable as marth, aerial approaches make for nice variation

 

[Deleted member]

i used to think that intentionally whiffing attacks as a bait worked, but now people have better timings so a lot of the time they can just get you anyway and it ends up being too risky. i'm sure there are exceptions, but i don't play with the idea too much anymore. of course, if you find something good, by all means use it.

 

[Beat!]

LOL MAHONE

-dead-

Def. agreed about PPU, though. He's SO GOOD!

 

[knightpraetor]

are there many vids of him though? when i last checked there were only a few so there wasn't much to study. When i watched his vids a month ago, I just remember that his vs sheik matchup had improved about 10x since 8 months ago

 

[TheCrimsonBlur]

A bunch of vids came out recently.

Check MeleePacWest.

 

[Beat!]

Yeah, lots of new PPU material lately, and he's really ****ing good now.

 

[Divinokage]

I asked azen for advice on the sheik mu...

he gave me some TIPS.

Ill show you how to play Marth.

 

[Mahie]

i used to think that intentionally whiffing attacks as a bait worked, but now people have better timings so a lot of the time they can just get you anyway and it ends up being too risky. i'm sure there are exceptions, but i don't play with the idea too much anymore. of course, if you find something good, by all means use it.

Hey you're supposed to know what moves you're baiting if they overextend and reach you, you didn't bait properly. Those things change with the metagame but the goal remains the same, if you know character A is going to do action B if you whiff move C, then you just do it in a way that it's not punishable by action B and enjoy your meal if they do try to do punish it that way again.


And yes PPU's Marth is really sexy. I hope he starts playing some more again.

 

[Deleted member]

Hey you're supposed to know what moves you're baiting if they overextend and reach you, you didn't bait properly. Those things change with the metagame but the goal remains the same, if you know character A is going to do action B if you whiff move C, then you just do it in a way that it's not punishable by action B and enjoy your meal if they do try to do punish it that way again.

ahh see i was operating under the idea that you're not looking for any one specific thing, but rather trying to proactively force an opening in a generic way that just gives you something to work with. i usually don't consider conditioning the same as a bait, but i could see how they could be considered the same. i usually put it closer to a bad habit or something like that.

as a nit-pick, i don't think that the opponent necessarily has to over-extend for it to be a successful bait. it just has to be something that you can react to and work with. this could be any number of things, but i was thinking positioning. for example, my current strategy for sheik vs falco is to jump onto a platform, have falco follow me in some way, and then use her fair/bair to leverage some kind of advantage. it's not a well developed idea, but that's not the point so much as to acknowledge that falco never really has to follow me onto a platform.

maybe this is all definitions and semantics bull**** that doesn't really matter, idk

 

[Bones0]

You have to condition someone before you can bait them...

 

[Divinokage]

No you dont, any action can be baited. You can just react to a dash, a jump, a move, a WD..