Important Carefully Ask PPMD about the Tiara Guy

[knightpraetor]

how much faster is peach's nair than marth's out of shield? marth's is 9 frames to hit? and peach's is jump frames + 3 = maybe 7-8? or am i miscalculating? i just was curious why nair out of shield with peach always seems to hit but when i do it with marth it doesn't.

ftilt put to some good use their. one place i would have preferred nair but i forget where. still considering whether dashing past a shield into instant pivot fsmash hoping they will move out of shield is worth the risk of missing the pivot. it's faster than wd fsmash, but if they are jumping out of shield i think the wd would still catch them in the case of a jump or wd out shield. so it doesn't seem to cover anything extra, but add the possibility of error. Good matches by the way. Can you get the sheik to play a little more campy by the way? i want to see more of your approach rather than shutting down missed aerials and punishing dash attacks that hit your shield. Just ask a sheik to play more grounded and campier vs you as that is the style that actually causes me more trouble.

your vs falco wasn't as bad as you made it out to be. i thought it was quite solid except for the 20sec where you tried to spam powershield and failed..and everyone has times where their powershielding is not on.

 

[ShroudedOne]

3 frames for nair to come out + 5 frame jumpsquat = 8 frame nair out of shield

 

[Dr Peepee]

how much faster is peach's nair than marth's out of shield? marth's is 9 frames to hit? and peach's is jump frames + 3 = maybe 7-8? or am i miscalculating? i just was curious why nair out of shield with peach always seems to hit but when i do it with marth it doesn't.

ftilt put to some good use their. one place i would have preferred nair but i forget where. still considering whether dashing past a shield into instant pivot fsmash hoping they will move out of shield is worth the risk of missing the pivot. it's faster than wd fsmash, but if they are jumping out of shield i think the wd would still catch them in the case of a jump or wd out shield. so it doesn't seem to cover anything extra, but add the possibility of error. Good matches by the way. Can you get the sheik to play a little more campy by the way? i want to see more of your approach rather than shutting down missed aerials and punishing dash attacks that hit your shield. Just ask a sheik to play more grounded and campier vs you as that is the style that actually causes me more trouble.

your vs falco wasn't as bad as you made it out to be. i thought it was quite solid except for the 20sec where you tried to spam powershield and failed..and everyone has times where their powershielding is not on.

I want that person who recorded me vs Ice and Over's Sheiks at SR to upload it but I dunno where those videos are =(

Maybe I'll record some of it with Twitch.


I need to practice powershielding haha. =p

 

[knightpraetor]

spelling errors. was sleepy though so sue me

 

[Dr Peepee]

**sues KP**

 

[Mahone]

*sues kp*

nothing personal bro, but i gotta eat

 

[mers]

*sues kp*

nothing personal bro, but i gotta eat

whatever dude just photocopy some $20 dollar bills

 

[Mahone]

haha, do you know where i got that from?

 

[Bones0]

That cartoon show with the people who have pointy heads and hair, probably.

 

[Blistering Speed]

Dr Peepee (Marth) vs. Ice (Sheik).

 

[Dr Peepee]

So happy that got put up!

vs Over coming soon at this link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jAl2V7AU4vI

let me know what you guys think =)

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Wow marth wrecks sheik in PAL


edit- Kevin, $5 Marth ditto MM @ FC? And our DKR MM that i challenged you to years ago


edit- nvm ur not going

 

[Bones0]

Damn, you scared PP out of going to FC just by challenging him to a Marth ditto. What a beast.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Wow marth wrecks sheik in PAL


edit- Kevin, $5 Marth ditto MM @ FC? And our DKR MM that i challenged you to years ago


edit- nvm ur not going

LOL that matchup seems like Sheik is slightly more pressured to get combos at lower percent because Marth can CC/ASDI down out of tech chases but it still leads to great combos by her as long as they don't give into pressure imo. Marth loses air mobility and his spike so both of those are significant losses in terms of juggling(main combos) and edgeguarding/gimping Sheik(main kills).

Not sure if any of that evens out or whatever(haven't played it THAT much beyond these videos actually) but it's just different in a cool way.

Unless that was a troll, in which case =(

We can MM eventually btw

Damn, you scared PP out of going to FC just by challenging him to a Marth ditto. What a beast.

Man what did you guys learn from this!!!!!!!!1

I'm tryin to talk about some Marth vs Sheik since everyone wanted to look at it LOL

(or does that go in the MU thread....which I didn't see bumped recently?)

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Wasn't a troll, looks like marth gains so much more than he loses. Hadn't heard about the aerial mobility thing tho, is it significant?

 

[Dr Peepee]

Makes his recovery decently worse, tell ya that much. About the same, but it's a noticeable difference, even after Up-B'ing.

Not sure about juggle game, that seems to work well enough in this matchup for the most part(it probably makes BF and DL worse though because he can't cover the larger gaps between platforms as easily then).

 

[Wake]

PP, will you and Mango play doubles with Max and I?

 

[Dr Peepee]

I'm not going to FC, but eventually sure I'm down for it if Mango is =)

 

[Strong Badam]

DKR MM?
Diddy Kong Racing?
I'll take that MM. Dibs on T.T. doe

 

[Wake]

We might be at the Big House. Peach and Zelda want to play with the birds.

 

[Dr Peepee]

If I can make it then sure thing!

Edit: just rewatched vs Ice, and I think that yeah you can usually combo sheik just fine and you get saved at lower percents when by the edge because it's not an awful situation then I think....maybe if she Uthrows it could still be good but I'm not sure how much lag there is on it and how quickly I can get away at lower percents.

 

[ShroudedOne]

I dunno what you're talking about, Peepee. Combos into reverse upb contain significantly more amounts of "swag" than combos into dair.

Sheik seems weaker in PAL the more I see her...

 

[Dr Peepee]

Dair is freaking cool he whacks people on the head and they just drop like rocks! All the time!

SWAG!!!!

 

[ShroudedOne]

Maybe not "significantly more," but reverse upb is so cool...maybe it's just that I don't see it often enough.

Also, you're really good at timing wavedashes onto the ledge to intercept Sheik's upb. I suppose Marth's long wavedash length really helps with that...and I saw from the friendlies with Ice that you have your respawn invincibility when you do it...is that how you avoid the explosion, or are you indeed just really good at timing it? I wonder why Ice kept shino stalling after killing you, once you showed that you could take the ledge from him...he was just playing really...oddly in general (or perhaps your Marth is just that good).

 

[Dr Peepee]

I think so @ first point but it's all opinion things anyway =p

His WD length does indeed help with taking the edge, but if you notice I never did it once vs Over because he knew how to time it to avoid my taking the edge from him.

Ice was intimidated by my Marth but he is also not very good against Marth so that made an unfortunate deadly combination. Luckily Leffen was giving him tips so the matches got a little better after a while haha.

If Marth is good enough at timing his edgegrabs he can totally avoid the explosion from pretty far away on reaction but Ice didn't really know the spacing or timing to trick me so he just fell apart(more) when his last safe place was taken away.

Most people in general lose some measure of control and focus when you show them a habit/trick of theirs will not work on their opponent.

 

[iffy525]

How do you guys like SH fair to uair? I like it a lot.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Man I need to do more SH Fair to Uair/Dair, especially on shields. Mixed up with delayed Fair and empty hops and Fair waveland that stuff could be tight with different spacings too.

*writes it down this time*

 

[Bob Money]

watched the matches,
really seems like both players Ice and Over dont understand the concept of being stingy in that matchup. they both jump way too much and dont harass with standing needle. They dont CC much and abuse downtilt as a spacing mechanism vs marth. then again its friendlies so i cant tell if they were just playing aggressive to have fun. They also need to wd out of shield and exploit small spacing errors .

good matches over all though, you are really good at tipping your aerials.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Euro Sheiks jump waayyy more than American Sheiks. It's probably because they can't do as much off of grabs as aerials normally <.<

I generally spaced out of CC range/used Nair sometimes to beat out CC but yeah they could have forced CC on me more to make me mess up, I agree.

No argument on the last point. That seems true.

Also thank you sir. =) Knowing tip spacing is sooo crucial for all parts of combos(early %, juggling, and finishing).

 

[Tee ay eye]

Combos into reverse upb contain significantly more amounts of "swag" than combos into dair.

I disagree vehemently

 

[mers]

So this is obviously a tall order, but:

Can anyone with gif-making skill make one comparing fthrow-ftilt and fthrow-fsmash on a few relevant characters/DIs? Especially those hard-to-reach but just possible DI/percentage combinations?

Thanks in advance if anyone tries.

 

[kd-]

Man I need to do more SH Fair to Uair/Dair, especially on shields. Mixed up with delayed Fair and empty hops and Fair waveland that stuff could be tight with different spacings too.

New to Marth specifics so bear with me a little bit here: If I do a sh fair on shield, I get grabbed or punished before I can get the second aerial out. For this matter actually I get punished on shield for almost anything. Should I be spacing out of grab range? What moves are safe on shield? Should I be buffering spot dodges/rolls? Am I just not fast-falling or something?

 

[Dr Peepee]

New to Marth specifics so bear with me a little bit here: If I do a sh fair on shield, I get grabbed or punished before I can get the second aerial out. For this matter actually I get punished on shield for almost anything. Should I be spacing out of grab range? What moves are safe on shield? Should I be buffering spot dodges/rolls? Am I just not fast-falling or something?

Ah okay I got you on this.

If you Fair and are rising/not FF'ing/not spaced out of shield grab range/some combo of these 3, then you WILL get grabbed or punished probably. BUT if you are spaced then not doing the other 2 things is USUALLY safe. Safe is not always best for pressure though because then people can just reset(WD OOS backwards is the typical reset).

Before I go on, I would like to say that doing a delayed Fair on shield and dashing away is 100% safe vs any character unless they hard predict it afaik. Even then it's pretty safe I believe. It's safe because Marth leans forward when he dashes so he can't be shieldgrabbed even though he's in a decent amount of lag after Fair'ing. Delayed Nair is the same btw.

So if your opponent is worried about the delayed aerial timing, then they may try to move when you jump/wait for the aerial before moving away or attacking. This opens up early pressure timings because it will throw off your opponent's expectations.

Attacking early allows you to space relatively safely on someone's shield, and occasionally their timing for pressure is so thrown off/they are stuck out of momentum so they don't retreat when the first aerial touches their shield because they don't know what you will do if you're spaced/they are stuck by the edge(best time to do this imo but it's probably more applicable than that). So, you can then do no aerial and attack(grounded or aerial upon landing) out of a rising aerial, waveland, or double aerial....or grab LOL(or movement/jumping again I guess). More options! Uair and Dair both provide PHENOMENAL shield stun, and most people can't time correct movements out of the stun as they aren't used to those moves hitting their shield, much less in the situations you are putting them into. Further, they are both amazing at shield stabbing, so you could even hit confirm sweet combos/kills out of this mixup! The trick is knowing how to condition people to stay in their shield. If their shield is already low/angled/exposing them naturally, then you could always just not Fair and just go straight to Uair/Dair of course. That would be kinda mean though

Now that I have said all of this, I want to make one point I have not yet stated VERY clear:

Pressure in this game is not perfect or extremely safe. You CANNOT do the same pressure strings over and over and get away with it vs good players. Marth will be limited by the speed of his moves and the arcs they swing at+cooldown lag for his pressure.

THIS MEANS THAT WHENEVER YOU DO A MOVE YOU ARE BEING RELATIVELY UNSAFE/PREDICTABLE!

Watch old Marth players play. They do not always go hard on other players' shields. They will sit and wait sometimes. Why?

It is because Marth can effectively counter most/all OOS options on reaction(with some prediction/conditioning help). By swinging your sword, you are giving up that uncertainty and showing the opponent your timing and your move. Sometimes, it is better to let them move first so you can counter them, thus making them more likely to stay in shield where it seems more "safe" because they are not getting hit. Taking FULL advantage of your range and mobility advantage over your opponent when they can't even move and will be forced to(shield's diminish+pressure builds naturally), Marth will be able to make his opponents HURT while in shield. Without doing anything. Sometimes.

Always consider what your opponent is thinking. If you whack their shield constantly, then they will just wait for you to have lag and counter/reset the situation. That's bad pressure.
If you wait and don't threaten them, then they will WD OOS/jump away/surprise attack you, which obviously means your pressure was ineffective, ESPECIALLY if it gets turned around on you. If they have more stage, assume they will retreat into it normally. If they have good jumping options OOS, be prepared to counter those more often than spotdodges or another pressure-based decision.


I just kinda enjoyed writing about Marth pressure after a while, but let me know if that explained this well enough for you haha. =p

 

[Bones0]

That changed a lot of my perspective on Marth pressure. Def write more! Particularly any info/advice about the actual covering of their OoS options.

 

[Tee ay eye]

That changed a lot of my perspective on Marth pressure. Def write more! Particularly any info/advice about the actual covering of their OoS options.

i agree

10char

 

[kd-]

That was a great post and explained more than I could have hoped for. Very awesome!

 

[S l o X]

pp do you go on aim anymore

 

[Dr Peepee]

yes I do

leave me a message I got you


Edit: I'll write more about covering the OOS options tomorrow maybe. Too tired now.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

Can we start calling this place, Official "Ask Doctor PH.D Peepee ... about Stuff" Thread?
It seems well on its way to becoming that.

 

[Varist]

so why do side b locks work on my little brother and cpus but apparently not on pros