Important Carefully Ask PPMD about the Tiara Guy

[Niko45]

Watching you play Ice what jumps out on me in terms of what you could improve on is focusing on sheik coming off the ledge cause the stuff you're generally doing is crazy crazy unsafe and punishable like jump back late fair, jump forward late fair, fsmash, honestly...anything. Invincible ftilt hurts. I think if you just concede letting her up off the edge but zone her just outside of waveland ftilt or jump needle range you'll get more consistent results in keeping momentum.

Could just be impatience in friendlies but w/e worth mentioning. Someone like m2k in NTSC would just win off you doing those types of things since he revolves around the ledge so much and in general regardless of style the situation comes up 8 billion times in this matchup no matter who it is.

I think if you're trying to punish jump back fair you could turn around jab and then confirm into dtilt instead of blind fsmashing and risking a half stock (against a sheik who is comfortable and ready to punish it).

Such smooth gameplay overall. Really enjoyable. Very jealous.

 

[Dr Peepee]

I don't even know what a side B lock is

Edit: jumping Fair is a good bait because they like to Ftilt that. It's a mixup and not a staple strategy by any means. I throw it out after I run sometimes to see if I can get a response from them. Sometimes I am lazy LOL.

When I play M2K I let him back and try to DD grab or Fair from farther away or Dtilt him or retreating Nair when he comes up so he can't dash attack under me at all and has to hold the invincibility. I don't bother with what I tried vs Ice and Over.

What does your next to last paragraph mean? I should hit Sheik zoning with Fairs with my jab into Dtilt? I think what I used to like to do once in a while vs sheik is run a lot then walk into her and Ftilt. Momentum on walking makes Ftilt hit Sheik before her Fair comes out right lol. I should try that more probably. Need to stop being lazy/being silly so much lol.

Fsmash is a REALLY fun move. =p But yeah pretty bad idea unless you get that sick read.


Ty for the complement. =)

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

I imagine you just side B a spacie offstage, then keep side B 1 until they die off the bottom.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Xeylode: That doesn't work if the spacie shines you in between them. Mango's Fox kept trying it on me but I was spaced out of range. I think it might have hit me if he DI'd the side B into me first though but I'm not sure....

 

[Niko45]

Like when you dthrow him off and he either goes for ledge or jump back fairs I think you could just throw out a jab to catch a fair and if she grabs ledge you can still get out of lag in time to get the hell out of there before she punishes. Jab might be too laggy or it might not come out fast enough or whatever (all theory, haven't practiced this, feels like it works tho).

But if you were just taking advantage of Ice it's all a moot point lol.

To expand upon the point, aside from obvious matchups like sheik or fox where invincible moves will beat whatever you try to challenge them with, I feel like it is just more effective to wait for people to do something instead of trying to anticipate people coming off ledge with a pre-emptive hitbox because technically getting off the ledge is always a commitment and with proper positioning can be punished on reaction.

 

[Dr Peepee]

I think there are a couple ways to do this:

1. Turn around. Marth's hurtbox is reduced then. It's harder for Sheik to Fair you but they think they can so they do it and then you get a free punish. If they drop then you can just WD straight to the edge without turning around.

2. Back to the edge again, but this time SH and Bair/Dair. If it hits Sheik then she gets *****. If it's a Dair it could cover her dropping off. If you SH and don't think she will jump/don't see her jump, then just waveland to the edge. That's really hard to react to or punish, especially if you don't do it every time.

If I ever mis-spaced then I just shielded after starting to dash and seeing if Sheik attacked. If she didn't I'm safe and if she did then I get a free aerial OOS.


Edit: Euro Sheiks loooove recovering with DJ Fair more than American Sheiks. I don't know why I think they just love Fair lol. Ice is a Euro Sheik for sure so there's where the Fair kept coming from, so I started challenging it in a funny way probably. I don't remember I watched the matches for entertainment/combo/movement stuff and not edgeguards because I generally know how to fix those.

 

[knightpraetor]

do you not like going off for edgeguards off dthrow pp? it was really noticeable that you preferred just walking forward and dtilting a lot or even risking fsmashes at times.

you maintain stage control though so i don't know.

 

[Dr Peepee]

I've never preferred that unless it's against like Fox or maybe Falcon I guess. The counterkill potential is too high for my liking and I believe I can hit my opponents while onstage.

I'm also a mediocre edgeguarder *shrug* It is worth considering that there are better options than mine in that situation. If you have any suggestions about how to do Dthrow edgeguards effectively and minimizing risk, then I am willing to listen.

 

[knightpraetor]

sheik's fair won't cause you to tech at low percents and at mid percents you can just tech..i'm not really concerned about counterkill potential..it's more the lost stage control when you have to get on...sheik covers marth pretty well when he's boxed out on the ledge.

i use spike (non-reactive) to call a fair at me or to sh rising dair at the ledge for a 33% kill rate (if they are only using fair and jumping to the ledge..if they insert airdodge you turn around and fthrow them off even if you missed the dair)

edit: to clarify i need two different timings on the dair to cover them fairing or i would have a 50% kill rate, which is what i originally thought I would have.

if you fthrow them off it's hard to get much if they DI out unless you go offstage in my experience cause they are more likely to get the proper arc on their jump and you are farther from the ledge

or do what you did and stay on and try fsmash..jab like niko suggested didn't work well for me..sheik just gets on with minimal damage even if you hit it..so i use fsmash or dtilt like you did. i just in general find that dtilt doesn't hit me for that much if they arc their jump to the ledge, so you have to either take the ledge or go offstage. When i watched your matches it seems like they were taking the ledge for free a lot, but occasionally they would get tagged by dtilt or even fsmash and end up dying or taking a lot of damage.

i'm rambling.

 

[Niko45]

you simply don't have frame advantage off of down throw off stage so you are always vulnerable to jump back aerials against everyone, so I think you're right in just playing a "safer 50/50" style and zoning from ledge if they get back.

Along the same line tho like you said about wavedashing to ledge against sheik off dthrow is also unsafe, and it sucks when she fairs you and you get spiked on FD or get pushed under battlefield. Not that it isn't worth doing ever (huge victory if you force an up B or air dodge off just a down throw) but you just gotta mix it up cause it isn't safe.

I think dthrow off is purely about keeping things mixed up cause you have to do something lol

 

[Dr Peepee]

Yeah it's Marth's advantage in that situation so he needs to do SOMETHING. I don't like not converting off of my advantages, that is just poor efficiency.

I find I don't get much grabbing the edge vs Sheik though. Maybe some extra percent but then another guess.

I need to find a better way to do all of this I think. If it's not that waveland trick, then maybe it's shieldbreaker(goes far below the stage from the air+maybe outranges Fair? sometimes?), or maybe that's all we really have. I'm not satisfied with what we do know now though. Testing needs to be done.

 

[Sweet™]

When your back is turned with Marth, does the range of your forward smash get minisculey bigger?

I see a lot of people that turn away from their opponent before fsmashing.

 

[Dr Peepee]

It's because Marth's body is less exposed facing forward(his foot is sticking forward etc). Makes the opponent think they can get a hit when he's standing in the same place but turned around as they usually can.

I'll see if I can write about covering OOS options today.

 

[Sweet™]

It's because Marth's body is less exposed facing forward(his foot is sticking forward etc). Makes the opponent think they can get a hit when he's standing in the same place but turned around as they usually can.

I'll see if I can write about covering OOS options today.

So what you're saying, is that's it used to lure your opponent into a false sense of security...? Or did that just go way over my head? lool.

 

[Mahone]

if you fsmash while turned around does it take an extra frame vs facing that direction?

 

[Deleted member]

Double edit: short peach vid is up: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pJGBYwHvbpg&list=UUsrUCyrwJxAGrCyeLRZhnKA&index=1&feature=plcp

0:02

0:12

0:41

0:56

love that forward throw > nothing combo. you're starting to look like a real marth player!

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

if you fsmash while turned around does it take an extra frame vs facing that direction?

No extra frames or anything if you fsmash in the opposite direction you face.

Edit: Dthrow edgeguards are more advantageous at higher percents and the closer to the ledge. With it you get enough time to run offstage and stay at her level as you run off. Fair covers either of her options to jump fair or regrab the ledge. And if she drifts too far down, Marth can get to the ledge before she does.

I'd prefer Bthrow for an edgeguard at mid to higher percents is the better option as in Marth does not have that weakness of trying to cover below him in front.

 

[Dr Peepee]

So what you're saying, is that's it used to lure your opponent into a false sense of security...? Or did that just go way over my head? lool.

It makes you harder to hit haha. Baits attacks because you stand in the same place but less body is available to hit.

0:02

0:12

0:41

0:56

love that forward throw > nothing combo. you're starting to look like a real marth player!

 

[Sweet™]

It makes you harder to hit haha. Baits attacks because you stand in the same place but less body is available to hit.

Oh, oh. I got you now. Thanks!

 

[Construct]

Another cool thing about being backwards is that you can't be hit during counter. Firefox can occasionally clip Marth's foot if you're facing outwards, but his back side is safe.

the more you know

 

[Dr Peepee]

Nah that can still get hit

it's just less likely

 

[Construct]

Really? I swear I saw a magus gif on that. Oh well, it's still less likely

 

[Dr Peepee]

Well I've been hit by firefox before out of standing around as well as seen other Marths get hit by it.

I don't know what else to say haha.

 

[.Chipmunk.]

Dr. PP is correct. It's far less likely to be hit out of counter when your back is facing your target. Not only is the exposed hurtbox smaller, but it is exposed for fewer frames.

 

[knightpraetor]

No extra frames or anything if you fsmash in the opposite direction you face.

Edit: Dthrow edgeguards are more advantageous at higher percents and the closer to the ledge. With it you get enough time to run offstage and stay at her level as you run off. Fair covers either of her options to jump fair or regrab the ledge. And if she drifts too far down, Marth can get to the ledge before she does.

I'd prefer Bthrow for an edgeguard at mid to higher percents is the better option as in Marth does not have that weakness of trying to cover below him in front.

oh, i've always noticed that it works better at higher percents. i assumed the stun or something was different. but the stun is the same right? it's just that the increased knockback means they are farther away and higher up when they get thrown off making for a better setup right?

also anyone care to tell me which frames i am vulnerable during the counter? if you are only vulnerable for 2-3 frames it seems relatively easy to learn the timing to ensure that you don't get hit by firefox. angles may still make it possible to get hit, but at least i can improve my chances. though lately i barely use counter lately except for run off counter. but i assume you can be hit by firefox during run off counter as well..but they usually hug the wall as i'm running off and i've never actually seen firefox beat it.

 

[.Chipmunk.]

also anyone care to tell me which frames i am vulnerable during the counter? if i am only vulnerable for 2-3 frames it seems relatively easy to learn the timing to ensure that you don't get hit by firefox. angles may still make it possible to get hit, but at least i can improve my chances. though lately i barely use counter lately except for run off counter. but i assume you can be hit by firefox during run off counter as well..but they usually hug the wall as i'm running off and i've never actually seen firefox beat it.

Well marth bounces up and down in the counter animation, so its a couple frames of exposure followed by a few safe ones, then it's repeated. Best to use gifexploder and check it out.

btw, since I'm really the one who populated the counter with your back instead of your front, and I really want something named after me....

 

[knightpraetor]

from the looks of it there is rather substantial time before the backside becomes vulnerable, so if you run off counter there is very little chance of getting hit if you time your run off correctly.

it's kind of confusing me though..if the front foot is that exposed then how does counter ever work when the falco goes straight up from under you and you're at the edge. i have never been hit while countering by anything except angled firefoxes, so i'm surprised that going straight up doesn't beat counter from below as well

 

[MT_]

The hitbox for firebird isn't continuous but rather a lot of hitboxes happening repeatedly (or for what I see from the gif) so the hitbox probably just pops right on the counter instead of creeping up to the exposed foot. This is just my guess though.

 

[Sweet™]

Can those gif's be compared to a gif of the counter attacking?

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

The hitbox for firebird isn't continuous but rather a lot of hitboxes happening repeatedly (or for what I see from the gif) so the hitbox probably just pops right on the counter instead of creeping up to the exposed foot. This is just my guess though.

fox's burn is repeated hitboxes, but the actual firebird/firefox is a single hitbox. In order for it to hit marth the hitbox must hit his foot but not the counter hitbox.

 

[MT_]

fox's burn is repeated hitboxes, but the actual firebird/firefox is a single hitbox. In order for it to hit marth the hitbox must hit his foot but not the counter hitbox.

That makes sense. Couldn't really see the hit boxes in all the fire from the .gif to be honest so I will take your word for it. Seeing how horizontally the counter hitbox and marth's foot are about on the same level, it makes sense that getting hit out of counter seems to happen more on YS where the slant is, so that the hit boxes are not on the same height.

 

[iffy525]

So what you're saying, is that's it used to lure your opponent into a false sense of security...? Or did that just go way over my head? lool.

It makes you harder to hit haha. Baits attacks because you stand in the same place but less body is available to hit.

Also, looking the opposite direction makes you look way cooler.

 

[MasterShake]

Marth doesn't need to look at explosions, or who he hits with his big dumb sword either.

 

[Tee ay eye]

i feel like i leveled up super hard in melee after i got home from rule 6.

i didn't EXACTLY learn anything new, per se, but a bunch of bits of smash philosophy floating around in my head really came together and manifested itself in my play. it's kinda hard to explain, but i may write some stuff in the near future about smash/marth

edit: actually, i wont. i'll just share it with the homies on fb/aim

 

[S l o X]

i know that feeling although i have yet to hit that.

swift told me thats exactly how it happens to, things just connect.

i think you should write it down here tho that'd be cool.

 

[Bones0]

i feel like i leveled up super hard in melee after i got home from rule 6.

i didn't EXACTLY learn anything new, per se, but a bunch of bits of smash philosophy floating around in my head really came together and manifested itself in my play. it's kinda hard to explain, but i may write some stuff in the near future about smash/marth

edit: actually, i wont. i'll just share it with the homies on fb/aim

I had this feeling after almost every tournament I've been to... >_>

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

I had that feeling at a smashfest before the last tournament i went to and ive been riding to FC

 

[Tee ay eye]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Ckx8GsHIc0

anyone wanna critique me? (*cough* pp *cough*)

ignore the derpy stuff like game 2 on dreamland or balls-to-the-wall friendly edgeguards

focus on the neutral game, combos (especially out of throws), and the more obviously "serious" edgeguarding

 

[Blistering Speed]

Stop using counter. That move ****ing sucks in almost every context.

 

[Dr Peepee]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Ckx8GsHIc0

anyone wanna critique me? (*cough* pp *cough*)

ignore the derpy stuff like game 2 on dreamland LOL

Critiquing vs Axe? Looks fun =p

-Too much attacking in the air at low percents. CC is a mega pain and he just ran at you early on most stocks because you wouldn't Dtilt/spaced aerial into maybe a jab or something else and let him keep running at you.

-Fair doesn't look that good vs pikachu(rising anyway) because Pikachu is so short. Just like retreating Nair or Dtilt more or delayed Fair once in a while or something. He has to approach with Nair so you can beat that on a read/reaction if you play correctly. Just don't do it whenever he runs at you that's gotten you *****.

-If Axe does a FH Uair on your shield, don't WD OOS then run away. He's gonna have to fall with Uair so punish that or at least take your free stage/pressure options.

-If you're going to Uthrow at low percent, you should probably SH AC Uair afterward

-If you Dtilt Pikachu's shield, be wary of your next action if his back is facing you. Respect the Uair OOS....you could honestly keep poking it and be safe LOL

-like blistering speed said, counter is not worth the small reward you get unless you are so sure it hurts you'll get it.

-you shield A LOT. like after everything. axe gets free ins. try moving off of attacks or doing ground attacks or even another aerial one out of things like that nair around 1:35.

-you give up stage for free, especially when you have axe cornered. marth's strongest position is that one vs pikachu....well maybe second strongest to having pikachu in the air but that's definitely the strongest neutral position Marth can have so abuse it harder.

-I see you did that SH Uair some but Pikachu will drift sometimes, and honestly if he's going to DJ always you can quit doing the SH Uair so much and focus on hitting him sometimes lol....btw don't Utilt after that Uair ever unless Pikachu has to fall into you(you cover him drifting away with Fair/Fsmash/run up regrab).

-too much guessing with things like the up-B at 2:19. that and counter don't need to happen. you need to WATCH axe. he literally just keeps waiting for you to freak out and counter/up-B/hold shield and then hits you or whatever. make him respect your sword!

-Don't tech chase with Dair if you can't combo into a kill move with it. Just tech chase Fsmash or maybe jab if you think you can get a dash Fsmash off of it(it does work sometimes).

-please stop letting him quick attack through you....I don't even know what to say about this one but it looks so disrespectful lol

I guess just quit doing aerials in place so much by the edge. Try Ftilt imo.

-last stock game 1: bad regrabs. either stop doing them as a bait or keep doing them to keep the invincibility fresh or come up quickly to make the most of your invincibility frames. no point in panicking there if that's what you did.


that should be enough