Important Carefully Ask PPMD about the Tiara Guy

[Deleted member]

i could see some of the stuff i say being too facile but it's partially in contrast to the unnecessary complexity that some of the players assign to this game. for the most part, melee is not a "solved" game so there are lots of rewards to thorough testing, something that seems to be ignored as far as i can tell.

 

[KirbyKaze]

The combo is designed for away DI. It works on away DI.

If they DI in on a d-throw then you can very likely mash your face into the controller with Falcon and probably produce a similar (yet slightly different) combo.

 

[ShroudedOne]

I actually went and tried different grab combo things on Marth as Falcon, cause I was curious. Like KK said, it seemed to be a combo for DI away (which tends to be the case for uair > regrab combos, I've noticed). Seems like Marth kinda gets manhandled when Falcon grabs him, though, regardless of DI...

 

[Bones0]

Marth Thread (Currently Discussing: optimal Falcon combos out of grab and how any DI attempts are futile)

 

[AustinRC]

A lot of Falcon's like to down throw into nair at low percents. If you SDI the first hit up and away or just up in general you can get an aerial out. ^^

 

[kd-]

Marth Thread (Currently Discussing: optimal Falcon combos out of grab and how any DI attempts are futile)

Slightly better than what it was before: Currently discussing how playing Marth is futile

 

[knightpraetor]

haven't read past tai's post yet but wanted to say that what people said about counter makes sense. i have never failed counter when using walk off counter vs firefoxes that are angled or not, and based on the size of the hitboxes it shouldn't ever fail unless it was perfectly angled into the diagonal behind your back foot as you walk off..pretty unlikely.

and the front foot should not be vulnerable even if they straight up.

however, if you stay on stage you are at pretty high risk of failing counter unless you are really close to the edge. in my opinion based on the hitboxes you should try to get as close to the ledge as possible (preferably teetering) and then turn around (not as important as being close probably..as having them come up under you is an easier position to reach)

you are at some risk of being hit by firefoxes going straight up, but honestly that is only relevant if they magically started firefox at exactly the right spot to pierce, and you should also be watching that..realize that they can go straight up and fall to the ledge, so you wouldn't counter in the first place

 

[.Chipmunk.]

Sometimes, when I fall off counter, I hit them back onto the stage, and I'm like awwwwwwwwwwwww.

 

[knightpraetor]

i think that has happened to me once before..not sure how though.

also, falcon's combos are ridiculous on marth..i remember back when i used to practice falcon vs marth combos from zero to death for two hours a day that the matchup seemed really easy on falcon's side..but lately it seems a lot of falcons i play do decent combos but can't seem to land that many grabs. Really hard to judge the matchup lately; need to play someone better.

(random aside: i've never mained falcon so why do I have memories of practicing falcon combos on marth for 2 hrs a day for several weeks)

also, smash DI can break combos but usually you at least get hit and take some damage anyway.

I remember back when i played falcon for fun against marth because it was free at my level, I wasted like 16 hrs just learning to combo dthrow at zero into nair, but most falcons just take dthrow into techchase, and then I get out for no reason. and then i hit the percents where upair should autocombo into either regrab or at least two upairs, but then they hit me only once somehow.

i mean if a marth dropped their chaingrab three times within a stock we would just say the marth sucked, but when falcon players routinely do the equivalent, we say nothing because falcon is fast and looks pretty when he moves across the screen.

However, while on first glance it looks really lazy when so many falcons are so bad at comboing marth, it makes sense since in general almost all falcon players struggle more with fox and falco. if you're already beating the marths around your level, then why worry about comboing them better. just learn to beat falco and fox instead

 

[Bones0]

Counter hits them back into the wall when you run off with a lot of momentum. Even if their up-B hits the outside of your counter, if your momentum carried you past them during the counter hitlag or w/e, you will turn around to hit them. If you walk off slowly you can mostly avoid this.

 

[Dr Peepee]

That changed a lot of my perspective on Marth pressure. Def write more! Particularly any info/advice about the actual covering of their OoS options.

Okay, so in order to explain how to cover OOS options, I have to explain some stuff about shield pressure first. Marth actually has pretty good shield pressure.

Now before I even begin explaining a bunch of nuances or mixups, I want to talk about pressure a little. Remember when I said Marth could just stand still and cover all of an opponent's options when they're shielding? As long as Marth is close but still safe, that is PRESSURE he is exerting on the opponent. Whacking someone's shield and going nuts is something spacies(maybe just Falco) and Peach do. That's not what Marth is supposed to do always(sometimes works). Consider Marth's moves. Are they super fast with small lag and constant hitboxes? Unless you are thinking of Dtilt, then no. They are arcs that only enter a favorable position for Marth AFTER they come out usually, so you have to add time to whatever calculation you perform when swinging at someone or threatening to do so. Get too close and they can hit you before your move is out, guess wrong and back up too much to get the sword in the right place when they get to you, and the pressure is off+you've given up stage. It's Marth's fundamental problem, but it can be converted into an advantage in some ways. That's not what this post is about though, it is about shield pressure lol.

Marth tends to put ENORMOUS pressure on someone when he's on top of them and he just used an aerial very low to the ground. This is because the move is strong, he tricked their timing/spacing usually, and he can't really be punished afterward if he dashes away(it's because he leans....try it with Fair/Nair). Plus, one's shield is eaten up in all that time he set up his aerial, so they likely will get stabbed by another move if they don't react.



Okay NOW THEN, I have to explain a little bit about shield pressure before tying Marth back into it.

Shield pressure factors to manipulate include: the way you're facing, the way your opponent is facing, positioning/spacing, timing, opponent's OOS options, shield size, stage control, which stage you are on(platforms, blast zones, etc) % of both characters, and most importantly: what you both did last time a pressure situation occurred.

I'm not covering all of these because this is about Marth, but I'll go into a couple and tie him in.

If an opponent is facing towards Marth, there is always the option of a shield grab in addition to retreating aerials, so in a Marth ditto this would be the less ideal way for the opponent to face while shielding. However, this also makes the option of shield grabbing more tantalizing in general because people want to get Marth when he's close. Spacing literally any of Marth's aerials in addition to delaying them on someone's shield puts pressure on them because they cannot reliably shield grab Marth unless he runs in/tries to grab as well(aka he committed to something unsafe because he thought they would stay in shield/run away).

If Falco is shielding, you must worry about AC Bair, retreating Dair, FH, laser, and shine OOS(unlikely but it could happen). Shield grab too I guess but Falco never does it usually. If Falcon is shielding you have.....stomp OOS, Bair, roll, FH....Nair I guess? Both of them have WD OOS but it doesn't do either of them much good. When you consider that both of them will primarily be jumping OOS to do whatever they want to do, you can sometimes wait for the jump then get a free juggle if you don't want to attack. For Falco, I've literally jabbed, put a Falco in shield, and then just sat there until they tried to laser and tipper Fsmash'd them before. It's....pretty funny LOL.



Some mixups for some of these variables:

The way you're facing:

-forward: delayed/rising/double aerial, empty hop, shieldbreaker, grab, jab, tipper fsmash

-backward: back hit of Uair/Dair/Nair?/Bair, empty hop, ground moves

most important thing to note here is that you can turn around and change up these options VERY QUICKLY when grounded. keep that in mind it's very important.


spacing:

-tippered vs untippered moves(deals different hitstun additionally)

-grab vs not grab spacing

-moving vs standing still

-FF vs no FF


opponent's OOS options:

-Falco: AC Bair is beaten by running under it, shine is beaten by spacing, retreating Dair you can hit him on the head or grab his landing lag, laser can be hit/powershielded I guess lol, FH you need to get under him and Uair asap

-Fox: upsmash needs to be spaced around/hit Fox's head before his legs get to you, SH Bair you beat by running in, FH same as Falco but it's easier since his Dair isn't scary.

-Puff: her WD OOS is beaten by Dtilt/Fair, Upsmash OOS loses to spacing/timing, otherwise just catch rolls pretty much LOL

-Sheik: Nair OOS should never happen....Sheik just SHs to dodge usually or WDs OOS. Beat SHs by hitting her as she jumps/Ftilt'ing after she does. WD OOS is beaten by hitting her as she moves or taking stage and keeping pressure.


Stage Control:

-if you have more stage, they're probably gonna slide to the edge/have to make a desperate roll/dodge/jump

-if they have more stage, they're probably gonna WD OOS/roll away/jump away, and sooner


Now, there are obviously some ways to influence this "game" and get results/options you like to cover. If you're amazing at comboing off of grab and you LOOOOOOVE your grabs, then you need to threaten with moves/movement to get someone to think you won't grab or they're extremely uncertain about when you grab.

If the opponent loves to pop Nair OOS with Peach, then get close to them and swing some/act like you'll run in to grab and shield to get free hits on her.


Considering all options evenly is pointless when everyone has favorite options. It's your job to figure out what those favorites are and exploit them.



I'm going to write about Dtilt now. There's too much to write about here so just ask if you want me to break more of this down and I might do some other section or something LOL.

Would PP or anyone be interested in writing a guide on Dtilting for Dummies? I probably don't use it nearly enough because I'm such a DD *****. When I do use it, it's almost always dash canceled which always feels super telegraphed and easy to avoid.

*incoming Cactuar theory*

Okay so you read my post above where I explain Marth's Fundamental Problem right? The one where all his moves have lag and the sword arcs right? Okay good thought so.

So if you think about Dtilt, that move doesn't really have the problem pretty much all of Marth's other moves have. It's not slow to come out, it stays in one convenient place, it has low lag, and even IASA frames! Sweet move imo.

Since it also has quite a bit of range and stays on the ground, it allows Marth to have someone respect his dash+range more.

Btw Bones, you should WD Dtilt more. It comes out faster than dash-canceling by a landslide and it's safe(unless you play against people that like blindly aerial'ing into Marth I guess....).

The point isn't even really to hit with Dtilt after a while, it's using Dtilt to get FREE STAGE because people have to run away/shield/jump to dodge it. No one wants to block Dtilt or get hit by it because that's a free mixup/combo for Marth LOL. So, you eventually stop using Dtilt and start running at people and then Fair'ing and then they think Marth is just stupidly swinging his sword and getting kills. It's pretty awesome.

That same technique also begins to minimize Marth's Fundamental Problem because they get so concerned with Dtilt they don't have time to worry about Fair as well. Even if they do see it coming, there isn't much anyone can do about it when they're already cornered....Marth's corner game is amazing.



Okay I'm done writing now OMG SOMEONE RESPOND TO THIS PLEASE SO I KNOW I'M STILL ALIVE.

 

[ShroudedOne]

Doesn't Falcon chaingrab Marth from 0 for a bit? I don't understand the other people who just dthrow > techchase Marth. Why would you let Marth just drop that slowly?

Oh wow, where did that huge post come from? Ah, more reading...

 

[Dr Peepee]

He can regrab once from Dthrow at 0 I believe.

Man I love comboing Marth with Falcon it's so easy and quick lmao.

 

[Bones0]

Okay so you read my post above where I explain Marth's Fundamental Problem right? The one where all his moves have lag and the sword arcs right? Okay good thought so.

LMFAO Yes, I read it. Very insightful stuff. Kinda still brainstorming further stuff myself based on things you pointed out, and I'm playing later so hopefully I can put most of it all together in my mind by messing around with this. WDing into dtilt in particular will probably help A LOT. I also mind****ed myself a little when I was reading the part about dtilt. You said people hate blocking it and I was like, "Hmmm, what can Marth do after they shield dtilt? Oh yeah, PP just wrote about it. Assess their options and scare the **** out of them cause I'm ****ing Marth."

I will see what I can learn tonight, and then post about my findings to see if there's anything I'm still thinking of too linearly. Thanks again for the posts. :D

 

[Bones0]

I'm playing right now, but I'm really struggling trying to use dtilt out of WD. The only time I am spaced properly for it is when I dash away, but I am facing the wrong way. Do I just need to learn to turn around right before the dtilt? The other way I do it is WD back WD forward, but it's seems super obvious and telegraphed... PLEASE HELP...

 

[MT_]

I'm playing right now, but I'm really struggling trying to use dtilt out of WD. The only time I am spaced properly for it is when I dash away, but I am facing the wrong way. Do I just need to learn to turn around right before the dtilt? The other way I do it is WD back WD forward, but it's seems super obvious and telegraphed... PLEASE HELP...

Have you tried wavedashing in place out of your dashdance?

 

[Bones0]

Wow, that is helping a lot. I should use this more with every character. I'm baiting so many more stupid dodge reactions already. Thank you. :D

 

[Construct]

super awesome theory bomb

Dang PP, lots of cool thoughts in there. Thanks. Was feeling pretty bummed out about Marth recently, gonna go spend some more time with this technology

 

[Dr Peepee]

I'm playing right now, but I'm really struggling trying to use dtilt out of WD. The only time I am spaced properly for it is when I dash away, but I am facing the wrong way. Do I just need to learn to turn around right before the dtilt? The other way I do it is WD back WD forward, but it's seems super obvious and telegraphed... PLEASE HELP...

People use it differently. I've seen this best used out of shield honestly, but out of a forward-reaching dash can have some interesting applications as well. I think it's important to experiment like with the WD in place out of DD. You have to make sure your DD is helping you set this up as well.


Edit: Glad to see all of the nice responses! Good luck Marths =)

 

[Varist]

PP do you have a list of little combos and tricks and stuff. I've got no problem with first hits or dash dancing and i space as well as I really can but I can't like destroy people off of hits. i'm working on recognizing DI and stuff for diff characters in training mode by just throwing them in all directions and holding the analog stick on 2p with my foot in all directions to look at that stuff but now I just need a big list of "if this character DIs this way at this percent after you use this move you can follow up with this" for me to memorize

thanks to anyone who can provide cool little things like that. i don't want to have to make up my combos as I go, I want to be playing through as much familiar territory as possible in tournament when the pressure is on.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

You do not necessarily have to combo off of each hit you get. Its free damage if you do, but you just want to keep people in a bad spot. Look at this match, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K4073GHgKA8

M2K is not getting combos vs armada a whole lot. But he is spacing himself correctly and timing is sword strokes right to keep armada out. At 1:54, M2K is waiting for armada to get closer before swinging his sword. He rushes back to center stage and uses Bair. M2K keeps his positioning while armada is swept out offstage again. He won't combo off of a bair. Then, M2K uses reverse Utilt to keep armada out from center stage again. He didn't combo, but he is certainly getting the damage on armada for that. And speaking of which, reverse Utilt is good since if anyone is trying to DI towards center stage, they will go straight up setting themselves up for an easier follow-up. Otherwise, they get sent back offstage which is still good.

 

[knightpraetor]

so the only question I had was why did you say dash in beats bairs out of shield. Does marth really get under the bair? I can see that being true, but I wanted to confirm how and at what spacing marth should be dashing forward to dodge bair out of shield by falco/fox. I always just dash in and dash away and bait it, but you made it sound like you can just straight up dodge it.

I just feel like they would fade out the bair normally, and you could run in after dodging it regardless. However, if there is a way to just straight up dodge the initial hit using your lean in your dash that seems nice as well. however, the bair hitbox should stay out and hit you on the way down, are you just supposed to CC on the way down and avoid the initial hit with your dash? Just really curious about what you meant. It seems too good to be true..just duck under bair as you come in???

 

[Varist]

You do not necessarily have to combo off of each hit you get. Its free damage if you do, but you just want to keep people in a bad spot. Look at this match, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K4073GHgKA8

M2K is not getting combos vs armada a whole lot. But he is spacing himself correctly and timing is sword strokes right to keep armada out. At 1:54, M2K is waiting for armada to get closer before swinging his sword. He rushes back to center stage and uses Bair. M2K keeps his positioning while armada is swept out offstage again. He won't combo off of a bair. Then, M2K uses reverse Utilt to keep armada out from center stage again. He didn't combo, but he is certainly getting the damage on armada for that. And speaking of which, reverse Utilt is good since if anyone is trying to DI towards center stage, they will go straight up setting themselves up for an easier follow-up. Otherwise, they get sent back offstage which is still good.

fighting peach, especially a peach like armada, of course you're not going to be looking for combos. this whole paragraph is based on the antithesis a situation where the knowledge i requested could be applied. i'm talking about characters like fox, falco, marth, and falcon.

 

[Dr Peepee]

so the only question I had was why did you say dash in beats bairs out of shield. Does marth really get under the bair? I can see that being true, but I wanted to confirm how and at what spacing marth should be dashing forward to dodge bair out of shield by falco/fox. I always just dash in and dash away and bait it, but you made it sound like you can just straight up dodge it.

I just feel like they would fade out the bair normally, and you could run in after dodging it regardless. However, if there is a way to just straight up dodge the initial hit using your lean in your dash that seems nice as well. however, the bair hitbox should stay out and hit you on the way down, are you just supposed to CC on the way down and avoid the initial hit with your dash? Just really curious about what you meant. It seems too good to be true..just duck under bair as you come in???

Well yeah you will get hit but you can ASDI down the weak hit of Bair for quite a while so it's not a big deal. There are other ways to beat it like slowly weaving into your Fair spacing and getting it out before they can Bair but that's harder and less guaranteed imo.

Dashing in then dashing away works too, consider that they might try to SH early to Bair then so they can FF it and hit you. That's when dashing away after dashing in is effective, in addition to what you said. =)

 

[knightpraetor]

yeah these don't sound bad for dealing with fade out bairs..but too many people use in place or retreating bairs anyway so this is like theorycrafting to deal with a safe kind of play that i almost never see

if they fade out bair during your dash away i'm pretty sure they have options to uptiilt /whatever before you get out your grab even on a dash in again, so even though i most of the time just dash away and let them give up space and have a disadvantageous position, it doesn't hurt to set up a CC bair into grab at CCable percents.

rather than beating out the bair with fair i think it's easier again to just move just outside falco/foxes bair range and wait and then move in with fair..unlike going in for the grab the fair will always hit...of course the issue with being at this spacing is that the falco will not want to hit you, but realistically marth should be moving in and out of various spacings and just take whatever options he gets the chance for.

however, i will probably try to learn to dash under bairs so that i can get the weak hit and CC; sounds interesting at least

 

[Deleted member]

Okay I'm done writing now OMG SOMEONE RESPOND TO THIS PLEASE SO I KNOW I'M STILL ALIVE.

I liked your entire post, you've definitely nailed the character down in the last 9 months.

That said, Marth's fundamental problem isn't having moves that don't stay out or have the arcs. His moves offer a trade-off in that you have to learn how to place them to overcome them being "slow", but then you get moves that hit god damn everywhere and combo forever. That is not a weakness. Marth's weakness is that you can hit an opponent and still get punished because you didn't hit with the right part of the move. This is why it's so important for his first hit game to be based around grab, and also why the character needs to focus so much on ground control.

 

[Dr Peepee]

yeah these don't sound bad for dealing with fade out bairs..but too many people use in place or retreating bairs anyway so this is like theorycrafting to deal with a safe kind of play that i almost never see

if they fade out bair during your dash away i'm pretty sure they have options to uptiilt /whatever before you get out your grab even on a dash in again, so even though i most of the time just dash away and let them give up space and have a disadvantageous position, it doesn't hurt to set up a CC bair into grab at CCable percents.

rather than beating out the bair with fair i think it's easier again to just move just outside falco/foxes bair range and wait and then move in with fair..unlike going in for the grab the fair will always hit...of course the issue with being at this spacing is that the falco will not want to hit you, but realistically marth should be moving in and out of various spacings and just take whatever options he gets the chance for.

however, i will probably try to learn to dash under bairs so that i can get the weak hit and CC; sounds interesting at least

What I suggested should have helped with those Bairs you described as well.....I suppose you could always just Dtilt at max range to be totally safe but that is no good if he gets a free out afterward.

Now if they fade as you dash in, hit with the last part of the weak hitbox and then uptilt, then yeah they can totally hit you with Uptilt. The idea is to hit them before that last part of Bair with a move or spacing a grab/another move on their landing lag so the only option they have is to shield. This time it's worse though because they lost more stage and the Bair didn't work and they might have lost some shield so they can't wait around or risk getting shield stabbed. There are ways to make all of these types of things advantages for Marth. =)

Let me know how your tests go!

I liked your entire post, you've definitely nailed the character down in the last 9 months.

That said, Marth's fundamental problem isn't having moves that don't stay out or have the arcs. His moves offer a trade-off in that you have to learn how to place them to overcome them being "slow", but then you get moves that hit god damn everywhere and combo forever. That is not a weakness. Marth's weakness is that you can hit an opponent and still get punished because you didn't hit with the right part of the move. This is why it's so important for his first hit game to be based around grab, and also why the character needs to focus so much on ground control.

If Marth didn't hit with the right part of the move, didn't he hit with the wrong "part" of it(the part where the hitbox started too early/too late)?

Grabbing as a focus seems silly because Marth has the range to handle CC and most any other attack. I agree that, given most situations it is generally the best(or top 2) go-to option to start dealing out the best punishment, but there is much to be said for a well-timed Fair or Fsmash at mid percent or a Dtilt that knocks any character on the ground just as the move is able to start doing so. These combos that may seem somewhat illegitimate are much more legitimate than many people would think because Marth can cover so much ground with his range+mobility and his Fsmash being so far from him allows him quite a bit off leeway when chasing down tech rolls or catching a jump etc etc(just one example).

Grabs are really really nice, but the best way to open up your strongest option is to use different options(ideally those with ample/similar reward) so that your strongest can be forgotten about, if only temporarily.

 

[Deleted member]

If Marth didn't hit with the right part of the move, didn't he hit with the wrong "part" of it(the part where the hitbox started too early/too late)?

Grabbing as a focus seems silly because Marth has the range to handle CC and most any other attack. I agree that, given most situations it is generally the best(or top 2) go-to option to start dealing out the best punishment, but there is much to be said for a well-timed Fair or Fsmash at mid percent or a Dtilt that knocks any character on the ground just as the move is able to start doing so. These combos that may seem somewhat illegitimate are much more legitimate than many people would think because Marth can cover so much ground with his range+mobility and his Fsmash being so far from him allows him quite a bit off leeway when chasing down tech rolls or catching a jump etc etc(just one example).

Grabs are really really nice, but the best way to open up your strongest option is to use different options(ideally those with ample/similar reward) so that your strongest can be forgotten about, if only temporarily.

Yes and no to a lot of stuff here. Like let's say you get a clean hit on non-tip fsmash and you get crouch-grabbed, the hitbox wasn't too early or too late, it just wasn't the "good" hit. Clearly Marth should utilize some mix of all of his tools, but ground control > grab is a good bit more reliable because you can't grab the opponent and still get crouched after you know you got them.

Once you understand the refined aspects of proper ground control, you can expand the character substantially better, that's old news.

 

[Blistering Speed]

Your stigma towards crouch cancelling is nonsensical, Marth's sword is one of the best utilities for circumventing that mechanic. Spacing incorrectly gets you punished, obviously, but you can't disregard a fundamental tool simply because it necessitates precision.

 

[knightpraetor]

hard to decide, honestly unless my opponent is sheik i think that CC is pretty garbage vs marth. but then i remember just 4 months ago when i was worse at this game, doc and mario's CC gave me trouble when playing people better than me, but now that's not the case. The rest of the cast seems to have pretty garbage options out of CC on marth honestly. just space well

of course CC on dash attack is a rather large problem. However, for the amount of payoff we can accept a little risk

also i don't know why marth would ever hit a non-tip fsmash..i think umbreon is misinterpreting what pp said. PP never suggested that he just throws out the Fsmash randomly. The places a marth player throws out fsmash is when the risk the opponent would take by trying to get in range of CC the fsmash would be so great that it trumps the advantage gained if he gets a CC on the fsmash.

For example, if marth throws out the fsmash while the opponent starts a dash away, in order to be in CC position the person would have had to dash away into immediate dash in blindly to get the CC off in time. If he is doing that then a billion of marth's other options are going to hit him easily because he won't be getting out of range in time. There are also many setups for marth's fsmash when people are coming down or approaching from out of range where the risk of CC on the fsmash is nonexistant. In those situations only dodging matters and aerial approaches cannot dodge and punish very well, so if the opponent overfavors those you can punish that as well

 

[Bones0]

Well if the opponent is dashing in either direction shortly before the fsmash, it's unlikely they'll be able to CCC at all because they will only get ASDI down, not the true CC effect. That's why I think people overexaggerate moves being CCed like Marth's dash attack. Yeah, it can be CCed, but if you can only rely on CCing to beat dash attack if your movement only consists of WDing and walking.

That being said, Peach is a ***** and her CC dtilt is BS because I swear it hits tippered fairs...

 

[Dr Peepee]

Yes and no to a lot of stuff here. Like let's say you get a clean hit on non-tip fsmash and you get crouch-grabbed, the hitbox wasn't too early or too late, it just wasn't the "good" hit. Clearly Marth should utilize some mix of all of his tools, but ground control > grab is a good bit more reliable because you can't grab the opponent and still get crouched after you know you got them.

Once you understand the refined aspects of proper ground control, you can expand the character substantially better, that's old news.

Perhaps I am misunderstanding what you are going for with the term "ground control" then. Would you care to elaborate?

 

[Bones0]

PP has reached that affirmation metagame. Oh ****.

 

[ShroudedOne]

I've been feeling lately that crouch cancelling isn't that reliable anymore, in the face of good spacing.

Bones, just like...late fair. That always works when I try to CC > dtilt, anyways.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

I feel this is a required post after getting ***** on stream: Kage is pretty good against Marth. I would like a full set, though, Roustaine. You do a lot of stuff that I would have adapted to.

 

[Deleted member]

Perhaps I am misunderstanding what you are going for with the term "ground control" then. Would you care to elaborate?

Ground control for Marth means limiting the opponents options on the ground from the neutral game, which goes back to your point about Marth's unique version of pressure. Marth's ability to cover options defensively is the focal aspect of what Taj refers to as "React and Deny" and it's probably the best simplistic approach to the character because you do get to cover many diverse options from the opponent. But Marth isn't like other top characters where you have a mix of aerial and grounded options because Marth rarely wants to attack a grounded opponent from the air outside of maybe sh fair walling and the opponent obviously has no business being in the air against Marth from a neutral standpoint. Since you're unlikely to engage a good opponent air to air, ground to air, or air to ground, the focal interaction from neutral is usually ground to ground. This is why marth's dashdance is so stupid, why dtilt is an amazing ground move, why FD get banned against the character a lot, etc.

This also means that a lot of the time, Marth has to dedicate a large amount of focus to circumventing crouching, even at mid %. Without controlling the opponents options on the ground, and without respecting crouching, Marth is not a good character. With them he's ridiculous. At your caliber of play, you do these both automatically. To some degree though, Marth can't always play around both the crouch game and the opponent's ground options because we're humans and we mess up and Marth struggles to reset to neutral if he's put into a disadvantageous position. That's fine, it happens. But it also means that your best shot of playing around them is to reset to neutral and then find a cheap way to circumvent crouching. To me, grab is the obvious way to do this. Marth doesn't have stand up > shine to reverse a bad position, and he's not really fast enough to weasel his way into something good all the time. Grabbing is your best bet to avoid crouching in the event that you "get them" and you want to be sure it doesn't bite you in the *** for a hit-confirm, where you can't always be so sure with the sword at low or mid %. It accounts for human error, which smash has plenty of at every level of play.

also i don't know why marth would ever hit a non-tip fsmash

i don't know why either in magical christmas party land. if you play marth, there's a good chance you'll hit a non-tip to a grounded character. often.

Your stigma towards crouch cancelling is nonsensical, Marth's sword is one of the best utilities for circumventing that mechanic. Spacing incorrectly gets you punished, obviously, but you can't disregard a fundamental tool simply because it necessitates precision.

there is absolutely no reason to disregard crouching when your character design heavily encourages your opponent to stay grounded, particularly when that character also has a pretty horrible combo weight once hit. crouching is broken at low level play and stays broken at top level play.

spacing incorrectly gets you punished much more as marth than other characters because you can hit with your move and still get punished for it. if you have crappy spacing as peach or falco and you hit with your move, you're generally still okay, but that's not necessarily true for marth. precision isn't always an option outside of super theory bros because of human error or positioning. you can replace not-precise moves with grab and be much better off.

 

[knightpraetor]

this kind of matchup independent discussion of marth as a character is pretty useless. I agree that CC has high danger against marth and sheik, but would consider the danger from ICs to be minimal and the danger from fox falco and falcon to be neglible enough to not be considered important except when the fox/falco CC jabs you and you are at high percent

 

[KirbyKaze]

I wish Sheik had Marth's u-throw. And possibly his dair.

 

[kd-]

In Street Fighter Yun has divekicks that can be unsafe if they hit above the waist. A common technique against Yun if you have a giant punish is to move forward when he divekicks so that it hits high and you blow him up. I think similarly against Marth, moving forward can negate his spacing and open him up to CC punishes. It seems to me that CC punishes can happen anytime your opponent is willing to, and it may or may not be reliable since spacing is still a factor of you and your opponent.

this kind of matchup independent discussion of marth as a character is pretty useless. I agree that CC has high danger against marth and sheik, but would consider the danger from ICs to be minimal and the danger from fox falco and falcon to be neglible enough to not be considered important except when the fox/falco CC jabs you and you are at high percent

CC grab/Shine->Grab/Pillar has been lethal in my limited experience playing/watching.

I wish Sheik had Marth's u-throw. And possibly his dair.

If Sheik had Marth's dair or any spike/meteor smash in general I'd probably be playing him/her.

 

[Bones0]

Marth doesn't have stand up > shine to reverse a bad position

Counter .