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[Mahie]

Counter .

Counter doesn't cover stuff the way shine does...

Can someone explain to me why Peach players now consider the match-up even? It really doesn't feel that way to me at all.

 

[Bones0]

I don't think counter is as good as shine out of wakeup, but it definitely works comparably, and I think it has some aspects in which it is actually better than shine.

Peach-Marth can seem really even because Peach is fat, and Marth is squishy, but then Marth waves his sword around and stuff.

 

[Deleted member]

stand-up counter is only a legitimate strategy for free byes.

the person doing it being the bye.

 

[Mahie]

I don't think counter is as good as shine out of wakeup, but it definitely works comparably, and I think it has some aspects in which it is actually better than shine.

Peach-Marth can seem really even because Peach is fat, and Marth is squishy, but then Marth waves his sword around and stuff.

Apart from the fact that Counter is half active, half lag, and the fact that shine is Jump Cancelable at pretty much any point, thus enabling the player to transition into pretty much anything, you have to note that when you do a shine, there are little stars coming out of it, and it's kind of pretty, so I'm not sure how you can say counter is better than shine.


And I really do think that if Marth can just powershield Peach's turnip, he takes like half of her fast-approach game and can just focus on dash attack, making the matchup that much easier.

 

[TheCrimsonBlur]

As sick and useful as powershielding turnips is, I think Marth can simplify the matchup to just dash attack by aggressively denying turnip pulls and beating her air to air on floats. He doesn't need powershielding to devolve the matchup that way.

In other words, Marth is broken. Yayuhz

 

[Mahie]

I don't know. I don't really like fighting Peach up close, I feel like it's a bit easy for her to capitalize on a weak sword hit, instead of a tip. However, waiting for the powershield and denying her any way to approach is a pretty simple way to lock her down and force rash approaches. Eventually, Peach can't do all that much, I think.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dLT97ivKo_4

This is an example of me playing the MU that way. Took me a while to get into the game, but after a while, you can see that those things do work, and with more experience, I think it could be a really strong style in Marth vs Peach.

Edit : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pCF8QLoJU0w Maybe this showcases the point better. I hope to hear you guys' thoughts about it, still.

 

[Bones0]

Apart from the fact that Counter is half active, half lag, and the fact that shine is Jump Cancelable at pretty much any point, thus enabling the player to transition into pretty much anything, you have to note that when you do a shine, there are little stars coming out of it, and it's kind of pretty, so I'm not sure how you can say counter is better than shine.


And I really do think that if Marth can just powershield Peach's turnip, he takes like half of her fast-approach game and can just focus on dash attack, making the matchup that much easier.

I never said counter after wakeup is better than shine. In fact, I explicitly stated the complete opposite...


I want to try PSing turnips so bad. In my head it seems super easy.

 

[Beat!]

Peach-Marth can seem really even because Peach is fat, and Marth is squishy, but then Marth waves his sword around and stuff.

Pretty good KK impersonation.

 

[ShroudedOne]

I definitely don't think it's even, but apparently other Peaches see it this way, now. I honestly don't know. He has a sword and grabs, though.

 

[Deleted member]

any peach that tells you the marth MU is even hasn't played against a marth.

 

[Mahie]

I never said counter after wakeup is better than shine. In fact, I explicitly stated the complete opposite...


I want to try PSing turnips so bad. In my head it seems super easy.

Yeah my bad Bones, I read it the wrong way for some reason.

And PSing projectiles that comes from above your shield is not that complicated, and any marth player should have like >90% accuracy at doing that, imo, since it's the easiest type of PS.

 

[.Ðempt]

Coming from a Marth who plays VaNz frequently, I can honestly say I know the Peach matchup really well. First, your grabs are extremely essential (obviously). As soon as you grab her, you FThrow her. If they DI in, you're able to FAir her into a Ken Combo, easily. The matchup is NOT even. The only things she has are projectiles, and floating aerials. Avoid projectiles, and predict her aerial drops (these are what **** up most Marths), space accordingly, and you should find this matchup quite easy.

Personally, my biggest challenge is spacies. Comboing them isn't hard. Its more or less the neutral position, such as dealing with Falco's lasers/laser approach, and Fox's speed/disgusting punishes from grabs. I'd love to hear what advice you guys have to give.

 

[knightpraetor]

CC shine and grab are usually not in range unless you screwed up pretty badly. However, I agree shine is not bad, but it's not enough to really make a marth worry about being CCed..the marth just thinks he should space better then.

anyway, what do people think are the best options for edgeguarding marth. Yesterday I played a marth near my level for the first time in almost 1.5 years, so I realized that I suck at edgeguarding off fthrow if they DI away and then jump to the ledge. Should I run off rising dair a lot? I think i was using run off fair but that doesn't seem particularly better in my head.

However i've never tried run off rising dair back on stage on anyone other than fox. So i wanted some other opinion. I was also thinking that if i wavedash to teeter range and then ftilt/jab or sh a fair underneath the stage it might hit them. He was arcing his jump so dair from onstage to the ledge couldn't hit properly.

Another thing I was wondering is whether run off fair has too much risk of being pulled off stage by a nair or some aerial hitting backwards...I just remember getting countergimped once, but I don't remember the situation very well

i'm also getting very good vs sheik from playing over 40 hrs against her while in korea. However, I'm not satisfied there with my edgeguarding either. However, I think my problem is that a few times I tried to attempt offstage shieldbreaker while he had his jump so it was too hard to aim. However, I do think that if they are offstage and low, whether they have the jump doesn't matter. No sheik is willing to risk the horrible chance of recovering from under the stage( pretty much relying on the marth not messing up) so if they are far away and need to jump to get above ledge height they will.

marth is really good, in case any of you were wondering.

Also, I don't really feel fthrow is very reliable against peach. Based on the videos i've watched of aramda, DI away and down destroys everything but dash attack..and sometimes he smash DI techs the dash attack anyway

 

[.Ðempt]

CC shine and grab are usually not in range unless you screwed up pretty badly. However, I agree shine is not bad, but it's not enough to really make a marth worry about being CCed..the marth just thinks he should space better then.

anyway, what do people think are the best options for edgeguarding marth. Yesterday I played a marth near my level for the first time in almost 1.5 years, so I realized that I suck at edgeguarding off fthrow if they DI away and then jump to the ledge. Should I run off rising dair a lot? I think i was using run off fair but that doesn't seem particularly better in my head.

However i've never tried run off rising dair back on stage on anyone other than fox. So i wanted some other opinion. I was also thinking that if i wavedash to teeter range and then ftilt/jab or sh a fair underneath the stage it might hit them. He was arcing his jump so dair from onstage to the ledge couldn't hit properly.

Another thing I was wondering is whether run off fair has too much risk of being pulled off stage by a nair or some aerial hitting backwards...I just remember getting countergimped once, but I don't remember the situation very well

i'm also getting very good vs sheik from playing over 40 hrs against her while in korea. However, I'm not satisfied there with my edgeguarding either. However, I think my problem is that a few times I tried to attempt offstage shieldbreaker while he had his jump so it was too hard to aim. However, I do think that if they are offstage and low, whether they have the jump doesn't matter. No sheik is willing to risk the horrible chance of recovering from under the stage( pretty much relying on the marth not messing up) so if they are far away and need to jump to get above ledge height they will.

marth is really good, in case any of you were wondering.

Also, I don't really feel fthrow is very reliable against peach. Based on the videos i've watched of aramda, DI away and down destroys everything but dash attack..and sometimes he smash DI techs the dash attack anyway

Regarding edgeguarding another Marth or Sheik, I feel the safest way to edgeguard them is to let them get back on the stage, then punish their lag with an FSmash. 90% of the time, you're able to FThrow, then turn around and wavedash onto the edge, forcing them onto the stage. I did this so many times vs my friend today, and he had no answer for it, so long as everything is timed correctly. I actually LOVE the Sheik matchup now, because DTilt raaaapes her everything, as well as camping FAirs. Another safe edgeguard is hanging on the edge, and drop off gently to BAir them. Love that one.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

@Dempt: The solution for the other marth if you get on the ledge is to wait you out. I mean, Marth has the combination of 2nd jump and sideB stall to wait out your invincibility on the ledge. If you get on too early, he can fall and sideB stall, then 2nd jump -> fair you away from the ledge, then get to the ledge with UpB. Even with proper timing, the other marth still has the option of going high and air dodge to the stage. I just dislike that option really as soon as another marth simply starts waiting you out by going really low below the stage.

anyway, what do people think are the best options for edgeguarding marth. Yesterday I played a marth near my level for the first time in almost 1.5 years, so I realized that I suck at edgeguarding off fthrow if they DI away and then jump to the ledge. Should I run off rising dair a lot? I think i was using run off fair but that doesn't seem particularly better in my head.

However i've never tried run off rising dair back on stage on anyone other than fox. So i wanted some other opinion. I was also thinking that if i wavedash to teeter range and then ftilt/jab or sh a fair underneath the stage it might hit them. He was arcing his jump so dair from onstage to the ledge couldn't hit properly.

Also, I don't really feel fthrow is very reliable against peach. Based on the videos i've watched of aramda, DI away and down destroys everything but dash attack..and sometimes he smash DI techs the dash attack anyway

It depends upon the percent and distance from the stage when you get a fthrow off. At lower percents, its about a 50/50 mix-up I feel whether you can run off and try a fair attempt. If the other marth is paying attention, you'll get swatted away before you can really run offstage. Marth's fair hits up top first, so with DI away, the other marth will get Fair out before you can. But if he really feels like sweet spotting that ledge with 2nd jump, run off fair should work.

Its at the higher percents or closer to the ledge where you can run off and fast fall safely. This way you can get below the other marth and 2nd jump -> fair him and attack before his own fair will attack you. The other marth will have to wait you out by going extremely low and far away to avoid being hit (in which case you just UpB back to the ledge yourself). Or, he'll have to opt by going high. If he goes high, he'll have enough lag you can reach him. The only good option if you manage to run off and get underneath the other marth is for him to 2nd jump and airdodge back to the stage. In which case, he'll be really close to the stage ledge where you can still retaliate, but sadly he is back on stage.

As far as peach and fthrow, I do not see how its not very reliable when you compare it to marths other throw options. Dthrow leads into nothing other than positional advantage. Bthrow is much the same as dthrow. Fthrow is pretty good in comparison. I mean, with the improper DI, you get fsmash or fair follow-ups guaranteed. If you do get the DI away, then your only change is to start dash attacking. I mean, a 50/50 situation on a guaranteed follow-up seems pretty good to me. As for armada getting SDI and tech, well, if they manage that consistently, then they probably deserve a punish on you anyway. I've not used Uthrow all that much, but its like the other subsitute for fthrow. Bthrow for that mix-up on KO attempts.

 

[.Ðempt]

@Dempt: The solution for the other marth if you get on the ledge is to wait you out. I mean, Marth has the combination of 2nd jump and sideB stall to wait out your invincibility on the ledge. If you get on too early, he can fall and sideB stall, then 2nd jump -> fair you away from the ledge, then get to the ledge with UpB.

Not entirely.

The way it works is pretty simple. I understand the percent he's talking about(more importantly, the DI he's talking about), because otherwise, he would just FSmash the other Marth instead of thinking of a way to keep him off the edge. Anyways, after your FThrow, you face away from the stage. If the recovering Marth is dumb and is trying to recover at your height/above stage, they're going to get hit with an FSmash/FTilt/Pivot>DTilt. If they're smart, they're going to go under the stage and jump to avoid getting hit, while sweet-spot grabbing the edge with their second jump. This is very noticeable. When they begin to use their second jump, you wavedash back (since you're already turned around). This eliminates the option of getting FAir'd, because if they FAir you, they won't grab the edge, and in addition, it's still difficult to FAir you in the first place (you'd have to FAir late, in which case, you'll die). Once you're on the edge, and they're unable to grab it, if they try to side-b, you can either intercept the side-b with a FAir or BAir since there is vulnerability there. Or, the safer option, which is jump up, and regrab the edge on each side-b. If they Up-B onto the stage, they can easily be punished.

 

[knightpraetor]

thanks for the tips. i will play around wtih them all when i get back to the states in 2 days.

I can't understand all this talk of fairing back on stage though..why would they fair instead of nairing. nair clears farther, and if they do the nair late they may be able to send you backwards instead while fair never hits backwards

also people need to stop overestimating the difficulty of smash DIing and teching things. i lost track of how many of fox's upairs I smash DI'd and the number of teched smashes from fox/falco. You don't want to rely on not meeting someone who happens to have a lot of experience at the matchup and practice doing those tech skills in tourney

 

[.Ðempt]

thanks for the tips. i will play around wtih them all when i get back to the states in 2 days.

I can't understand all this talk of fairing back on stage though..why would they fair instead of nairing. nair clears farther, and if they do the nair late they may be able to send you backwards instead while fair never hits backwards

also people need to stop overestimating the difficulty of smash DIing and teching things. i lost track of how many of fox's upairs I smash DI'd and the number of teched smashes from fox/falco. You don't want to rely on not meeting someone who happens to have a lot of experience at the matchup and practice doing those tech skills in tourney

*Facepalm*

I'm referring to if they haven't grabbed the edge yet, not ledge-jump>nair. But yeah, there will be very rare circumstances where fair sends backwards......very....for when they ARE ledge-jumping.

 

[Bones0]

Do you have any vids of you playing Marth dittos KP? I am having trouble being real sure of what you are actually attempting (to no fault of your own, Melee is just too nuanced for text imo).

My decision tree for edgeguarding tends to something like:
Can they DJ to grab the ledge? If yes, stay on stage and try to dtilt. You can read it and go for dropzone fair or DJ dair, but unless they are at a decently high % and you are at a low %, this often isn't worth the risk (especially because I think the weaknesses of Marth's ****ty ledge options are exacerbated in the ditto). So I usually end up dtilting, and if I hit them, that's pretty much a stock if you can get on the ledge, otherwise keep dtilting with dair/fsmash mixups to mess up techs/add damage/end the stock early. The key to landing the dair is to be SHing towards the ledge (facing center) as his up-B hitbox is coming out, and you want to time it so that right as he reaches his peak and the hitbox disappears you are going for the hit. Ledge cancelling into a ledge grab can be especially useful for those awkward percents where dair doesn't quit spike them far enough down and they can still grab the ledge.

Once you've proven you can abuse the low recovery stuff consistently, they may try mixing up with earlier up-Bs, side-B stalls that potentially hit you, etc. A lot of it can simply be CCed at lower %s, and at higher %s you can mostly look out for the spacing they are using approaching the ledge. The main point of contention during recoveries when he can reach the ledge without up-Bing is his DJ. He has the mixup of DJing or just dropping and up-Bing, or he can DJ and smack you with fair/nair to free up the ledge and potentially get a reversal if you are off stage at all. If you find yourself getting hit by this stuff, you're probably just too close to the ledge in the first place. Abuse dtilts length and stay back as long as you can before having to move forward. If at any point they DJ above the stage, make sure to do whatever you get to prevent him from landing back and getting his DJ. At higher %s you can just fsmash obv, but at lower %s you have to get creative. You can force his DI in to serve up a Ken combo. If you can't land the dair, just end the fair string with neutral B. Very underused and you can use it particularly low because of how it halts your fall. Also keep an eye out for fair to up-B opportunities for low %s when you think they will DI away early.


When I get off work I'll write more about edgeguarding when they can't just DJ to the ledge and how I like to use ledge invinc + bair + WD off stuff.

 

[knightpraetor]

edit: i make a lot of grammar errors sorry. I am in korea and don't have the time to proofread like I would in america and sometimes I can't think in english correctly from thinking in korean too long. Also I played smash so much that I haven't slept properly for a very long time so i'm out of it. so it is perfectly natural to not be able to understand what i'm saying. However, just ask for sentence clarification or just talk about things you think i might be thinking about. when i get to america i'll try to start making coherent posts

dtilt has a very low hit chance (if it can hit at all) vs people who space their DJ properly bones. I'm saying that when i play people decent the dtilt rarely ever hits like it does when playing people worse than me so I want other options.

anyway dtilt is a horrible option against people most of the time as far as I can tell. I almost never get hit by it and when i do it's always cause of poor spacing on my jump (usually pressure making me want to jump early..not off of throws where I feel no real pressure)

don't get me wrong i've used dtilt all my life. I told myself 1 year ago that it was probably better to go off a lot of the time but then I never did. I think the issue is the large chance of a reversal at low percents and each initial hit in marth dittos counts for too much.

fair lacks stun when jumping back on stage and rarely works as well as nairing back on stage in my experience, that's why i suggested that most players would use that instead of fair since it's hard to tip a person running off to hit you.

anyway i think maybe part of my problem was running off a bit early, and the other problem was that I would go for run off fair instead of run off rising dair at the lower percents so then they would just absorb it and get on stage anyway.

I am also curious how you get invuln at the right time to edgeguard from the ledge. I used to use invuln nair on a lot but a lot of people angle their up bs nowadays so it's harder to get invuln that lasts long enough to use an invuln nair to hit up bs.

I wish i had vids. I can ask mahone for some when we start playing again maybe

 

[Mahie]

The only things she has are projectiles, and floating aerials.

Yeah, that was my point, pretty much, except there isn't much point in dodging the turnips, since if you wait for them to be right above your head, then shield, it's a free PS.

 

[knightpraetor]

another question in relation to edgeguarding marth with dtilt..is it worth wavedashing to the ledge to use your dtilt? it would make it hard for them to arc their jump, so they would have to only come up from directly under the stage then..but then you're at high risk of getting hit by moves

 

[Dr Peepee]

Dtilt is tight to use vs spacie DJs but not Marth or Sheik in my experience.

Runoff Fair is pretty good vs Marth DJ but I'm not sure if it's worth it or not. I have to play with it.

KP don't throw Marth offstage around 10-30% with Fthrow unless you are right on the edge maybe. You just don't have time to do anything imo(Uthrow mixup is tight there though since they have to DI out to make it work lol). Higher percents I would Dthrow/Fthrow them offstage then WD/double WD to the edge and sometimes I could invincible DJ spike them if I was quick enough/they double jumped.

SB is only good on opponents offstage spaced pretty far from the edge so shieldbreaker is pretty much guaranteed to hit them jump or not.


Fthrow is good on Peach for tech chasing but not comboing(unless you throw her offstage at dash attack percents).

Uthrow is great vs Peach always.



Edit: umbreon I'll respond to you when I get a little more time...probly tomorrow.

 

[Divinokage]

Btw I played a bunch of friendlies with Darkrain and Mango's Falcon with Marth (Where basically all the matches were pretty much 50-50) and it feels like this matchup can be played like i play it with Ganon.. which means you can get at a certain space and basically cover most of Falcon's options when you are using Marth's range. Of course sometimes you have to mix in some dash away to not get hit but in general I feel like it's generally good to be pretty close to him and it's not that hard to do. And those juggles that he has.. omg so good.

Sorry, random parenthesis. =P

 

[Bones0]

edit: i make a lot of grammar errors sorry. I am in korea and don't have the time to proofread like I would in america and sometimes I can't think in english correctly from thinking in korean too long. Also I played smash so much that I haven't slept properly for a very long time so i'm out of it. so it is perfectly natural to not be able to understand what i'm saying. However, just ask for sentence clarification or just talk about things you think i might be thinking about. when i get to america i'll try to start making coherent posts

lol It's really not your grammar. Maybe speaking in Korean is actually making your English just sound weird even if you are mostly speaking/typing normally? I was just referencing when you say stuff like run-off fair where there's a million different variations and sub-actions that aren't being conveyed. Stuff like whether you are hard reading and just rushing off, reacting and DJing back on when they don't DJ, delaying it as long as possible to make sure you hit them after their jump, etc.

dtilt has a very low hit chance (if it can hit at all) vs people who space their DJ properly bones. I'm saying that when i play people decent the dtilt rarely ever hits like it does when playing people worse than me so I want other options.

anyway dtilt is a horrible option against people most of the time as far as I can tell. I almost never get hit by it and when i do it's always cause of poor spacing on my jump (usually pressure making me want to jump early..not off of throws where I feel no real pressure)

don't get me wrong i've used dtilt all my life. I told myself 1 year ago that it was probably better to go off a lot of the time but then I never did. I think the issue is the large chance of a reversal at low percents and each initial hit in marth dittos counts for too much.

Oh, you're probably right. I haven't spent too much time thinking about my recovery in Marth dittos, and my dtilt always works against my training partner, DJ, so I never really gave it a second thought. I will definitely focus more on sweetspotting DJs to see how often I can get under it.

fair lacks stun when jumping back on stage and rarely works as well as nairing back on stage in my experience, that's why i suggested that most players would use that instead of fair since it's hard to tip a person running off to hit you.

I used to nair back on all the time, but it just seems super risky, and I don't like how the hitbox leaves the angle to my head super vulnerable. DJ also used to do it vs. me (as well as from the ledge), but I just learned to ASDI into shield in between hits and it practically makes nair worthless unless they are airborne. I would only really use nair if they're already off stage, and at that point I'd rather just drop quickly and up-B to the ledge for a reversal instead of trying to stage spike him with nair or something. Fair is weak, but as long as I tipper it and they are past ~20% I usually have enough time to land or grab the ledge or up-B to the ledge.

anyway i think maybe part of my problem was running off a bit early, and the other problem was that I would go for run off fair instead of run off rising dair at the lower percents so then they would just absorb it and get on stage anyway.

I am also curious how you get invuln at the right time to edgeguard from the ledge. I used to use invuln nair on a lot but a lot of people angle their up bs nowadays so it's harder to get invuln that lasts long enough to use an invuln nair to hit up bs.

I wish i had vids. I can ask mahone for some when we start playing again maybe

I think I only really run-off fair when they've already lost their DJ. Doing it when they still have their DJ is just too messy because of reversals. You can't really protect yourself from both DJ fair and FF up-B to the ledge. If you have that much time to grab the ledge, you should (imo) just get on the ledge. From there you have so many options that work similarly to drop zone fair, but they're much safer because of their invinc, and you can also abort if they do something weird like up-B super early or airdodge by just rolling the ledge and killing them with the edgehog. My basic options that I use and look for once I grab the ledge are:
1. ledge drop bair/fair
2. ledge hop out to them and bair/dair
3. ledge hop onto the stage and bair/uair
4. ledge stand fsmash/start a combo with fair

1 is extremely easy to use since you just look at where they are as soon as you grab the ledge, and you can confirm pretty easily if you can hit them. I love bair's angle for edge guarding and it hits so far out they aren't going to be outspacing it horizontally. It's definitely my go-to edgeguard. I mix in the fair sometimes when they are far into the stage wall but too low to hit. They can tech it, but Marth's options after tech honestly never bothered me except wall tech jump bair, which no one does anyway, but even if they hit me with it I can still hit them with my up-B or something. I mostly prefer fair though when they are at low %s and can't tech. I just fair them once with invinc out of their up-B or DJ aerial, and from there you will usually be sort of below and behind them, which sounds bad, but it's actually a good place because they don't have a jump and can't aerial you. They are pretty much forced to up-B, and you will either beat them to the ledge with your up-B (because you're lower and spaced perfectly for an up-B sweetspot) or you will hit them and grab it anyway, at which point you just do another ledge drop bair/fair depending on which side they're on.

2 is basically a variation of 1 designed for when they're still far out. This option makes it so you can grab the ledge pretty much whenever you want and still land an aerial while controlling the ledge. It also just wrecks Marth's recovery since he usually needs every bit of horizontal distance possible.

3 is for when they're tired of getting dropzoned by invincible bairs and try to recover above you after you've already grabbed the ledge. LH bair chains into ftilt/fsmash/pretty much anything if they DI in, and if they DI away I love to use that epic M2K edgeguard in the intro of Real Kings Wear Tiaras.
I also just do WD off bairs when I don't have time to grab the ledge. Bair is so good you don't need invinc. Also, bair is PRO at catching DJs. Everyone thinks they can DJ over it when they see it coming, but the move goes so much higher than it looks, so you should definitely get a feel for how low you can go while still covering their DJ over you option. Mixing in uairs is also good if they try to DI it out since it's just a perfect tipper setup, and uairs have less lag making it easier to follow up with a fair combo if you want.

another question in relation to edgeguarding marth with dtilt..is it worth wavedashing to the ledge to use your dtilt? it would make it hard for them to arc their jump, so they would have to only come up from directly under the stage then..but then you're at high risk of getting hit by moves

I think so. I always make sure I'm at least far enough out with my dtilt that Marth's arm is going over the ledge.

 

[Sweet™]

I always thought fthrow fsmash was good on Peach at 0-15 or so percent, because you can either get a solid hit or a tipper.

It gets her off the edge early in the game, and all you have to do is edgeguard her, which is cake once she's exhausted her float/DJ.

 

[ShroudedOne]

DI down + away = no

Just upthrow her, please.

Fthrow CG works until maybe 20, also (probably not on above mentioned DI, though)

 

[Wake]

I definitely don't think it's even, but apparently other Peaches see it this way, now. I honestly don't know. He has a sword and grabs, though.

I don't know any Peach that thinks it's even, not too far from even though I'll give you.

any peach that tells you the marth MU is even hasn't played against a marth.

Again, not sure if any Peach actually thinks the MU is even, but it isn't too bad. Much easier than Sheik. Even Armada thinks so last time I checked, unless you want to argue that Armada has not played against a Marth.

 

[ShroudedOne]

Kzhu said it's even. And that seems to be a trend, slowly but surely (with a lot Peaches thinking it's really close).

 

[.Ðempt]

Yeah, that was my point, pretty much, except there isn't much point in dodging the turnips, since if you wait for them to be right above your head, then shield, it's a free PS.

Yeah, I figured as much. Projectiles aren't too bad since they're easy to predict. They're mainly just used for occupying space, while the real thing you need to avoid is Peach herself. And regarding her aerials, you just have to make sure you don't get caught in shield while she's floating above you, because if she FAirs low, she's able to grab you since your shield is in intense stun. But for the most part, yeah, you're saying the exact same thing.

another question in relation to edgeguarding marth with dtilt..is it worth wavedashing to the ledge to use your dtilt? it would make it hard for them to arc their jump, so they would have to only come up from directly under the stage then..but then you're at high risk of getting hit by moves

I really wish I had videos of you to watch so I can try to show you what I'm talking about. Try to get some up?

Dtilt is tight to use vs spacie DJs but not Marth or Sheik in my experience.

Runoff Fair is pretty good vs Marth DJ but I'm not sure if it's worth it or not. I have to play with it.

KP don't throw Marth offstage around 10-30% with Fthrow unless you are right on the edge maybe. You just don't have time to do anything imo(Uthrow mixup is tight there though since they have to DI out to make it work lol). Higher percents I would Dthrow/Fthrow them offstage then WD/double WD to the edge and sometimes I could invincible DJ spike them if I was quick enough/they double jumped.

SB is only good on opponents offstage spaced pretty far from the edge so shieldbreaker is pretty much guaranteed to hit them jump or not.


Fthrow is good on Peach for tech chasing but not comboing(unless you throw her offstage at dash attack percents).

Uthrow is great vs Peach always.



Edit: umbreon I'll respond to you when I get a little more time...probly tomorrow.

DTilt is great against Falco, because of his sweetspot being practically equal or higher than the stage itself. As far as Marth, Sheik, and Fox, they're tougher because they can grab the edge from further below. But it obviously seems like you know this.

I will never run off FAir unless it's against a spacie. You run so much risk of getting hit by Sheik or Marth's FAir. Even if you manage to tech the stage, your lag will be punished.

FThrowing around 10%-30% offstage has two possibilities: 1) They DI in and get punished by an FSmash. 2) They DI away and are not able to be punished from on stage. In this case, edge hogging, then following up with a drop down(gentle or FF'd) > DJ BAir is the most safe option. You must space the BAir because if they try to Up-B you'll get hit, so after you throw it out, you need to hug the stage. Also, Wavedashing offstage > SB works too. Much less predictable, covers the same options if they were to jump or not, and it puts you closer to the stage.

FThrow is most definitely good for comboing. I've lost track of how many times a Peach has DI'd into me, and I can start FAiring them into an offstage Ken Combo. That being said, if the Peach does in fact DI away, you can hit them with a Dash Attack, and continue them comboing them. If you're unable to do this, then yes, UThrow is the answer for you.

Btw I played a bunch of friendlies with Darkrain and Mango's Falcon with Marth (Where basically all the matches were pretty much 50-50) and it feels like this matchup can be played like i play it with Ganon.. which means you can get at a certain space and basically cover most of Falcon's options when you are using Marth's range. Of course sometimes you have to mix in some dash away to not get hit but in general I feel like it's generally good to be pretty close to him and it's not that hard to do. And those juggles that he has.. omg so good.

Sorry, random parenthesis. =P

Yo, I loved your Marth at FC. Wish I would've gotten to play it more. But most Marth's don't realize that they are VERY controlling characters, and the closer they are to an opponent, the better.

Kzhu said it's even. And that seems to be a trend, slowly but surely (with a lot Peaches thinking it's really close).

I love KZhu, but he is wrong. The matchup is in Marth's favor entirely because of his comboing and range in close quarters, where as Peach doesn't have that on Marth (as much, anyways).

 

[Bones0]

Run-off fair is like a million times safer in Marth dittos than vs. Falco...

 

[knightpraetor]

i am guessing he means mainly vs fox. I rarely use run off vs falco, but PP said it was good, so I was trying it. However, I have more success with jump off honestly

run off is awesome vs fox though.

anyway thanks for the advice everyone. I will experiment with it all.

planning on a 1 hr edgeguarding session with my brother vs marth soon. Feels weird to be practicing stuff for vs marth though. There aren't many marths nearby that I would actually have trouble with and need it except PP...and somehow I think vs PP improving my edgeguarding is not nearly enough

Higher priority is thatI want to learn to dair phantasms on stage to force techs like I saw in that recent M2k video (like 2 weeks ago). I can't seem to get the timing right. I actually prefer the dair tech situation to nair (where they just phantasm again), or fair ( i can't seem to get this one to hit very often in matches).

 

[Bones0]

Why not just jab/ftilt and gimp them?

Just finished practicing tech skill for like 4 hours straight. Ended with Marth vs. Falco on FD and did some absurd combo. Uthrow -> fair -> dash into pivot tipper (like where you DD 3 times). SO SEXY. I considered never playing this game ever again so I can just remember that as my last combo.

Then I realized I was alone in my room with the lights off and no one saw.



Oh, randomly remembered to ask this for DJ. How do you avoid shine spikes? I just waveshine him to his death multiple times per game. At first I thought I was just pro, but it's getting a bit embarassing because I'm pretty sure there's a way to escape it. I literally never see M2K get shine spiked. I figured out you can FF onto the ledge after being shined, but it seemed pretty hard. Is that what everyone else does, or do top Marths just avoid shines by the ledge?

 

[MT_]

If you're referring specifically to your options after getting shined from onstage to offstage, then FF onto the ledge is the proper response. It's not that difficult to get the timing (it's easy to practice with a training partner) and will save you major grief in the matchup lol.

For shine spikes in general, I think it's possible to react to most of Fox's attempts to shine spike but seeing how you are already in the disadvantageous position there's obviously no way to guarantee your safe recovery back onto the stage. I would write more specifics but I haven't really thought about this in depth; maybe somebody else can elaborate.

 

[knightpraetor]

too general of a question bones, it highly depends on what kind of shinespike it is as well. What is your setup? when do you run off and shine him? run off or jump off? take ledge into shine? fox has a lot of options, but marth can block all of them, but I don't know if you can block everything as marth on reaction. I feel like I can avoid shine spikes most of the time but occasionally they catch you right as you were making a decision and then you don't react in time.

Anyway just think about it when you play him some time. if the first shine that sent him off is not a combo then marth is able to move..then it's technically no different than any edgeguard situation except with the fox already offstage partially so that the marth doesn't have much time to react

the worst is when they do running shine and the first shine isn't DId so the second shine combos right at the edge.. and I never seem to smash DI the second shine up since I was thinking I would just fall to the ledge frmo the DI in on the first one...but yeah full run shine with the momentum *****..luckily if you stay on fox he doesn't have that option.

in regard to ftilt/jab vs dairing the phantasm
ftilt and jab do not send offstage enough. and i'm talking about phantasms where the marth cannot get to the edge before the phantasm gets off. Ftilt is ok, but they just DI it up and get more options. I would rather take control with a techchase honestly.

also random note: but the marth i played who was pretty good in korea was west coast.. why do even the bad players on west coast play so well...

how come the east coast players can't seem to learn this game no matter how many hundreds of hours they play

 

[knightpraetor]

I just realized I have a far more important question for my personal improvement. I kind of have trouble distinguishing marth colors quickly.

Which is to say that i'm probably one of the few marths to have run off and suicided at zero at the beginning of a tourney match in marth dittos.

I want to launch from the get go, so is there some pattern to where you start based on player port on the stages? is 1-2 always left side and 3-4 always right side?

Playing marth dittos yesterday we had 2 serious sets. And in those i tried to move from the getgo as well. I remember that I ran off stage on yoshi's and got back on after eating 50%. It seems like it might be useful for me to stop starting my matchups off stage.

I mean yeah if i don't move immediately i can check the colors fast enough; but good players move immediately (at least on nonFD when close)

 

[Bones0]

For my shine spike question, I was talking about when I shine him on stage when he's on the ground, not shining him out of his recovery or anything. It's like every time I get a drill shine near the ledge it's a 50% chance I'll WD off after him and simply shine again (at which point I shine-turn around fire stall, and I never drop edgeguards vs. Marth as spacies, MUAHAHAA!)



The neutral starting spawns are actually in the MBR Rule Set if you want to look at those, but I have all of them in my phone so I would suggest something similar so you can reference them before a tournament match to make sure you not only know where you're spawning, but hopefully get the bottom spawn port (since no one requests neutral starts except me and maybe Cactuar lol). Easy breakdown to remember neutral starts:
DL: 2 & 4
BF and PS: 3 & 4
Rest: 1 & 2

Full layout for each stage (order is Bottom, Left, Top, Right except for FD/PS where it is just Left to Right):
BF: 1, 3, 2, 4
DL: 1, 2, 3, 4
FD: 1, 3, 4, 2
FoD: 3, 1, 4, 2
YS: 4, 1, 3, 2
PS: 4, 1, 2, 3

I should also keep a note of the respawns since for some matchups and stages they are more important than the starting spawns. For FD in particular, I think spawning in the middle can be quite helpful because if you're spawning at the edge every time you get almost no use of your invincibility. This potentially occurs 3 times a match instead of just the one time that starting spawns make a difference, plus depending on their starting spawn it might not matter much if you start in the middle or edge (for example, if you are playing port 4 vs. port 2 on PS, it's not like they're going to have massive stage control at the beginning). Maybe I'll do this tomorrow.

 

[Tee ay eye]

Phanna vid for starting positions

 

[.Ðempt]

Run-off fair is like a million times safer in Marth dittos than vs. Falco...

Eh. Not sure. I've never had a good experience with Marth vs Marth offstage, and more or less have better experience against Falco offstage.

 

[KirbyKaze]

I don't think counter is as good as shine out of wakeup, but it definitely works comparably, and I think it has some aspects in which it is actually better than shine.

It's better vs Falco's lasers & Peach's turnips I guess but worse vs almost everything else.