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Important Carefully Ask PPMD about the Tiara Guy

Bones0

Smash Legend
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Jarrettsville, MD
I can't use control stick away to LH the fair because I end up DJing back. I can't use control stick down because I dair trying to hit A, and I can't claw so that I can fair with the C-stick quickly enough. I can't use away on the C-stick because it's just too hard to fair soon after, plus it makes me jump with control stick which feels weird and I can't get full drift onto the stage. I can't use C-stick down because when you input a diagonal on the C-stick from the ledge, you drop and attack immediately, so I end up dairing to my death.

Control stick down is probably my best bet. I just need to get good at sliding it from down and angled towards the stage past the threshold for fair in 1 frame. -.-


Yeah, I will critique a vid. Preferably vs. Marth though. That's the only matchup I know.
 
Joined
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M2K for combos and general stage control once he gets a hit. Probably reference taj, ice, or ppu for dealing with falco. Not really sure if how M2k approaches falco is the best.
 

.Ðempt

Certified Ponch
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I can't use control stick away to LH the fair because I end up DJing back. I can't use control stick down because I dair trying to hit A, and I can't claw so that I can fair with the C-stick quickly enough. I can't use away on the C-stick because it's just too hard to fair soon after, plus it makes me jump with control stick which feels weird and I can't get full drift onto the stage. I can't use C-stick down because when you input a diagonal on the C-stick from the ledge, you drop and attack immediately, so I end up dairing to my death.

Control stick down is probably my best bet. I just need to get good at sliding it from down and angled towards the stage past the threshold for fair in 1 frame. -.-


Yeah, I will critique a vid. Preferably vs. Marth though. That's the only matchup I know.
What I usually do for my FAirs is gently tap the control stick down and immediately (almost simultaneously) jump and C-Stick, but I use my hand (like at the base of the thumb) to hit the C-Stick, which in turn, allows me full control of the control stick. You'll get it man, just practice the **** out of it, lol. Whatever way works best for you.

I'm not sure if I have any Marth dittos recorded, but I'll check.
 

Bones0

Smash Legend
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I like his approach vs. Falco on FD. :troll:

Did you know: Marth's FF makes a noise because of his cape. I wonder if his (and Roy's I guess) are the only ones that do.


What I usually do for my FAirs is gently tap the control stick down and immediately (almost simultaneously) jump and C-Stick, but I use my hand (like at the base of the thumb) to hit the C-Stick, which in turn, allows me full control of the control stick. You'll get it man, just practice the **** out of it, lol. Whatever way works best for you.

I'm not sure if I have any Marth dittos recorded, but I'll check.
WTF? Do you do that for both sides? I always hear crazy ways people hit the C-stick and feel ******** when I try it myself. Believe me, if practicing the **** out of it was all I had to do, I'd be fine. I've been practicing since like 9 PM or some **** only briefly checking SmashBoards. >_>

It's just that physical limitation is there. Using back to drop will always make you lose a frame because you can't jump yet. I actually used to do ledgedashes super effectively with away and towards for the airdodge, but it made it too hard for non-spacie ledgedashes (namely Marth) where his jump speed isn't fast enough. So now I am jank with my ledgedashes 50% of the time because I'm basically relearning it, but at least with ledgedashes I didn't have to hit A as I went from down to left/right. Adding A into the equation makes it so I dair trying to fair as early as possible. :|
 

.Ðempt

Certified Ponch
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M2K for combos and general stage control once he gets a hit. Probably reference taj, ice, or ppu for dealing with falco. Not really sure if how M2k approaches falco is the best.
I don't think he does a good job at approaching Falco lol unless he's got his PS Wavedash FSmash game on.

But I did find a couple Marth ditts. Granted, they're old. But they're something.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A-_qCgC4T8w (Please don't make too much of this one because I was a little "under the weather" that day.....I blame Lain)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J9yMcqAdfdE ---> @ 1:49


Those two are all I have, since no one likes dittoing me :(


Also, I'm not sure if that's how I actually still do it (because since I've picked up Fox, my hands move a lot faster, go figure), but I know that's how I used to. Now, I think I'm fast enough to actually press Y and then C-Stick with my thumb instantly. I know I still have to use that weird maneuver though for the SB Ledgestall.
 

.Chipmunk.

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I like his approach vs. Falco on FD. :troll:

Did you know: Marth's FF makes a noise because of his cape. I wonder if his (and Roy's I guess) are the only ones that do.




WTF? Do you do that for both sides? I always hear crazy ways people hit the C-stick and feel ******** when I try it myself. Believe me, if practicing the **** out of it was all I had to do, I'd be fine. I've been practicing since like 9 PM or some **** only briefly checking SmashBoards. >_>

It's just that physical limitation is there. Using back to drop will always make you lose a frame because you can't jump yet. I actually used to do ledgedashes super effectively with away and towards for the airdodge, but it made it too hard for non-spacie ledgedashes (namely Marth) where his jump speed isn't fast enough. So now I am jank with my ledgedashes 50% of the time because I'm basically relearning it, but at least with ledgedashes I didn't have to hit A as I went from down to left/right. Adding A into the equation makes it so I dair trying to fair as early as possible. :|
I use Z for ledge stuff almost exclusively.
 

Bones0

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Side-B ledgestall is way easier than this LH double fair. Idk if you've tried it, but there's NO WAY any human being is moving their thumb from Y to C-stick left/right fast enough to do it. This is literally the only tech I've not been able to do because of a lack of clawing. I have gotten the half-fair out a few times, and a bit of the time I'm getting it out a quarter of the way, but most of the time I'm just whiffing.
 

Bones0

Smash Legend
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I use Z for ledge stuff almost exclusively.
Z doesn't help. I use Y and A so I can time them perfectly no matter how I want. The issue is moving the control stick to choose the aerial or moving my thumb from Y to the C-stick fast enough (impossible).

Not side-b silly. Shieldbreaker ledgestall, lol
Oh, that's easy as well. I do it the same as LHDLs and SHDLs. Control stick down -> Y -> B
 

.Ðempt

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LHDL's are easy, SHDL's aren't AS easy, but LH > Neutral B > Regrab with Marth is tough lol. Unless you're god tier, in which case, HRRRNNGH.
 

Bones0

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I shine OoS and do grounded shines out of dash with Fox really consistently. I don't think SB regrab is much faster, if at all.
 

ShroudedOne

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Page 235 was pretty good. Haven't seen that much high quality in one page in a while.

SH fair > waveland seems like it'd have a lot of use. But I tried to mess around with LH fair > waveland, and I couldn't get it. I either airdodged onto the stage, airdodged into the ledge, or landed on the ground with my shield up...it might be one of those things that are really difficult and not worth the effort...

Also, shieldbreaker stalling is impossible for me in every way. *sigh* My tech skill sometimes...
 

Bones0

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it might be one of those things that are really difficult and not worth the effort...
That's what they used to say about wavedashing. And that's what they still say about shield dropping.

So you can say "oh, this is too hard," but don't forget that decision when you see me winning Grand Finals by using LH fair waveland back to grab. :cool:
 

.Ðempt

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I shine OoS and do grounded shines out of dash with Fox really consistently. I don't think SB regrab is much faster, if at all.
OoS shine w/ fox is just balls. It'll take a minute. But yeah, that's definitely faster than SBLS.

I think when I come home from work tomorrow, I'll give the LH FAir Waveland trick a try, along with SH FAir waveland. Would be cool to learn :D
 

Strong Badam

Super Elite
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That's what they used to say about wavedashing. And that's what they still say about shield dropping.

So you can say "oh, this is too hard," but don't forget that decision when you see me winning Grand Finals by using LH fair waveland back to grab. :cool:
You'll be too busy using Falco to do anything legitimate.
 

crush

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my phone s gay dusnt lett me sign out

it says melee discusssion is private oonn thee front page and when i try to view a linked meleee ddiscussiong thred it says i dont have permission

****in teczero man

:phone:
 

Varist

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Dr Peepee

Thanks for Everything <3
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PP is cuter when he shaves.
knew it

I miss the Falco forums...
same

I should do another post but I've been busy

So... marth can fair -> waveland off the ledge.
sickkkkk

really, really gay.
LMFAO

Hey man, don't look at me. You're the one that Luvsdics in your mouth.
aaaaand LOOOOOLLLLL

Bones can you REALLY LH Fair to Waveland with Falco? That sounds ridiculous to me.
 

Dr Peepee

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Ground control for Marth means limiting the opponents options on the ground from the neutral game, which goes back to your point about Marth's unique version of pressure. Marth's ability to cover options defensively is the focal aspect of what Taj refers to as "React and Deny" and it's probably the best simplistic approach to the character because you do get to cover many diverse options from the opponent. But Marth isn't like other top characters where you have a mix of aerial and grounded options because Marth rarely wants to attack a grounded opponent from the air outside of maybe sh fair walling and the opponent obviously has no business being in the air against Marth from a neutral standpoint. Since you're unlikely to engage a good opponent air to air, ground to air, or air to ground, the focal interaction from neutral is usually ground to ground. This is why marth's dashdance is so stupid, why dtilt is an amazing ground move, why FD get banned against the character a lot, etc.

This also means that a lot of the time, Marth has to dedicate a large amount of focus to circumventing crouching, even at mid %. Without controlling the opponents options on the ground, and without respecting crouching, Marth is not a good character. With them he's ridiculous. At your caliber of play, you do these both automatically. To some degree though, Marth can't always play around both the crouch game and the opponent's ground options because we're humans and we mess up and Marth struggles to reset to neutral if he's put into a disadvantageous position. That's fine, it happens. But it also means that your best shot of playing around them is to reset to neutral and then find a cheap way to circumvent crouching. To me, grab is the obvious way to do this. Marth doesn't have stand up > shine to reverse a bad position, and he's not really fast enough to weasel his way into something good all the time. Grabbing is your best bet to avoid crouching in the event that you "get them" and you want to be sure it doesn't bite you in the *** for a hit-confirm, where you can't always be so sure with the sword at low or mid %. It accounts for human error, which smash has plenty of at every level of play.
Hard to decide where to start here.....

Your first paragraph, my big issue with your argument comes in with you saying Marth won't aerial when the opponent is on the ground except for some SH Fair walling. You don't really go on to say why except in the second paragraph, so that's kinda confusing. I actually like rising Fair/Bair and spaced Bair(possibly)/Nair as they are all easy to maneuver with(due to aerial mobility+ground mobility giving great setups) and all tend to circumvent crouching well(at least on tipper). They can ALSO combo well, set up for grabs well(due to using not-grab moves that condition the opponent to look for grabs less), and in the case of Bair/Nair particularly, they beat out a lot of moves that grab might not have beaten in a similar situation.
Example: You have less stage control than the opposing Fox. Pivot grabbing is only going to be a one-shot deal, and any dashes backward that don't successfully dodge an attack leave Marth open to getting pressured/thrown offstage(not to the edge but if he gets lucky that happens sometimes). By using an attack in place/even retreating or sometimes approaching slightly, Marth secures a hitbox between him and his opponent. Marth takes control(if only some) of the situation. By only reacting in a situation that is inherently disadvantageous and not creating an opportunity, Marth is making his bad situation worse. He HAS to "guess" some, and grabbing in place/pivot grabbing/grabbing towards the opponent will generally only lead to a loss of stage at best, stock loss+momentum loss at worst.

Then this same example could be run when Marth has advantage, but I really want to get to your other point/make sure I have time to cover it. I'll suffice to say that Fair loses some of its disadvantages when the opponent is cornered.



No character can perfectly play around CC'ing, it is a ridiculous game mechanic. Even Peach can get wrecked off of it(from her double jab/some parts of her Nair/Bair and her dash attack). Even Falco can(his Nair/Jab/Ftilt/Uptilt kinda all suffer from CC'ing). I don't think characters change up their game drastically because of CC'ing, they just learn the CC'ing percents and then play to those percents/conditioning of their opponent so they won't CC as much/at all at those percents.

Marth can control ground options from the air. Nair in place tends to cover most lower angles, and some creative Fair'ing(particularly involving rising ones) tends to smack a lot of ground moves. If Marth jumps, he is CONTROLLING the opponent's movements right away. I personally want to learn different AERIAL zoning techniques for the sole purpose of controlling the opponent and tricking them into thinking I am about to commit to a laggy aerial instantly when I jump or when I land. That kind of power, combined with options such as FF'ing/no FF or WL'ing, can create a large, dynamic area that Marth can affect when he jumps. Have you ever seen Mango hit good players with SH drift towards them no FF Fair? It is because he conditions them to run away when he DASHES towards them, then they can't react to the jump in time to punish, so he gets to overtake them and then control/hit them with Fair. That is one way to use what I am talking about.

Marth may not have stellar wake up options, but that's okay. Every character has flaws. Not sure where grab comes into play to help that out though. It's pretty slow for the size of it's hitbox/whatever you call it and won't beat out the scary moves Marth has to deal with usually(except Fox Nair sometimes LMAO that's always fun).

I could have wrapped this up better but I g2g eat. Respond to this and we will work from there. =)
 
D

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I could have wrapped this up better but I g2g eat. Respond to this and we will work from there. =)
I'll respond to you in full, but I can't because I'm leaving for a date. Unlike you. Cause you got burned.

THE IRL CALL-OUT

I completely agree that pivot grabbing is hardly the answer to everything and that Marth should be an aggressive character. Perhaps moreso than any of the other top characters really.

I'm not going to legitimize this post.

 

Fortress | Sveet

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I used to be able to do lhdf but i can't anymore. Isn't there some trick like you have to do your backjump or something?
 

Bones0

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Those ledge hop double fair antics :awesome:

LH fair-uair has no hitbox on the uair. Only fair-fair.
Nah, it definitely comes out. I hit someone with it. I had to do it in Training Mode on 2/3rd speed though. I didn't try doing it on full speed. Pretty sure you have to be frame perfect. I only recognized one frame of the uair coming out when it actually hit. Fair is 4 frames, uair is 5, and all of Marth's other aerials are more than those which is why they don't come out. Idk what the point of Dolphin is if I can count frames with my naked eye better than someone using it. :troll:

I used to be able to do lhdf but i can't anymore. Isn't there some trick like you have to do your backjump or something?
I've tried every variation. I use back to drop, hit jump and forward on the second frame (so you get the forward jump), and then fair on the third. Or at least that's what it feels like. I'm sure I'm missing frame or two between the drop and jump because sometimes I jump to early and end up doing fair regrab, but I figured that's not that bad for a mistake since it's pretty safe. Especially compared to the alternative mistakes for different methods, which end up being FF dair or an awkwardly early LH dair. lol
 

.Ðempt

Certified Ponch
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yeah teczero more like techomo (pronounced teck homo not teh chomo)



your friend the black marth is really bad

do you want me to critique your marth
I would love any critique. Just......please for the love of god, look at newer ****. Lol Fyi though, that first vid, I was the black marth. Just........there's reasons I played bad there. The other vid, I was the red one, and that was a pools game, not a friendly lol
 
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I made the mistake of making the input on display count 30 instead of count 29. I forgot that the display in debug mode starts counting as 0, 1, 2 instead of the typical 1, 2, 3, I'm use to.

Dolphin really isn't perfect either. I've not figured out how to do precise control stick motions that are not the 8 standard directions. You also notice a few things that are odd too. If a character makes a special attack or aerial input on the last frame of their jump squat, they lose air time by a frame or two compared to making the input on the first frame of air time. I have no idea why it does that other than maybe something to do with how the game accelerates a character during their jump.

Either way, LF fair-uair. Marth's fastest series of inputs yet?
 

Fortress | Sveet

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Dolphin really isn't perfect either. I've not figured out how to do precise control stick motions that are not the 8 standard directions.
I have a logitech joypad that i use and dolphin accepts 100% angles.


You also notice a few things that are odd too. If a character makes a special attack or aerial input on the last frame of their jump squat, they lose air time by a frame or two compared to making the input on the first frame of air time. I have no idea why it does that other than maybe something to do with how the game accelerates a character during their jump.
Sounds weird. Are you sure that doesn't happen normally in the game?
 
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