Important Carefully Ask PPMD about the Tiara Guy

[Dr Peepee]

I'm well aware that M2K being M2K has figured out nearly everything we know for Marth. But what does Marth possibly have that we haven't explored yet that could be metagame defining for him, if of course it isn't already? Not including everything we already DO know about this character.

your first mistake is assuming m2k has figured everything out. he has done amazing things for marth, don't get me wrong, but he's just a player. he's just a human. he can see things only from his perspective. when you improve, you will see things differently from m2k and thus be able to bring out some of your own metagame-defining changes.

Neutral position/zoning techniques, Dtilt uses, stronger edgeguards, better methods of juggling/setting up kills, possibly pivoting.....that is just what came to mind when I thought of all that Marth can improve upon.

There's always work to be done, especially in Melee. =)

 

[Bones0]

your first mistake is assuming m2k has figured everything out. he has done amazing things for marth, don't get me wrong, but he's just a player. he's just a robot. he can see things only from his perspective. when you improve, you will see things differently from m2k and thus be able to bring out some of your own metagame-defining changes.

Neutral position/zoning techniques, Dtilt uses, stronger edgeguards, better methods of juggling/setting up kills, possibly pivoting.....that is just what came to mind when I thought of all that Marth can improve upon.

There's always work to be done, especially in Melee. =)

Fixed .

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

I have implimented pivot fsmashes in neutral spacing for both offensive and defensive purposes out of my dash dance. I think if a better player than myself were able to use this to use fsmash in combination with the perfect spacing control of dash dancing, he would do quite well. One of the things that bothers me most about marth's dash dance is that he has only grab and jump options, and marth's jump options are mediocre compared to fox/falco/falcon/sheik's; pivot fsmash would give another option for attack -- one with much better range and reward.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

Pivoting into any of Marth's tilts would be quite handy.

 

[ShroudedOne]

your first mistake is assuming m2k has figured everything out. he has done amazing things for marth, don't get me wrong, but he's just a player. he's just a human. he can see things only from his perspective. when you improve, you will see things differently from m2k and thus be able to bring out some of your own metagame-defining changes.

Neutral position/zoning techniques, Dtilt uses, stronger edgeguards, better methods of juggling/setting up kills, possibly pivoting.....that is just what came to mind when I thought of all that Marth can improve upon.

There's always work to be done, especially in Melee. =)

Highlighting for emphasis.

And pivot ftilt/dtilt sound really, really useful. They are also really hard.

 

[Deleted member]

I'm well aware that M2K being M2K has figured out nearly everything we know for Marth. But what does Marth possibly have that we haven't explored yet that could be metagame defining for him, if of course it isn't already?

a lot of jason's current problems stem from his style being efficient vs some characters and soft against others. you should come up with positioning strategies where jason is falling short lately, such as not edge camping a character with a full screen stun laser. or something.

edit: what kevin said.

marth is a HIGHLY misunderstood character with a lot of problems in the metagame that haven't been "solved" yet even though the character has the tools to do so.

i think newer play styles cut the fat per se of the older styles, but newer marths still definitely have a LOT to learn from the 05 videos. it's scary how much the talent pool for the character has regressed. m2k himself included.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

a lot of jason's current problems stem from his style being efficient vs some characters and soft against others. you should come up with positioning strategies where jason is falling short lately, such as not edge camping a character with a full screen stun laser. or something.

edit: what kevin said.

marth is a HIGHLY misunderstood character with a lot of problems in the metagame that haven't been "solved" yet even though the character has the tools to do so.

i think newer play styles cut the fat per se of the older styles, but newer marths still definitely have a LOT to learn from the 05 videos. it's scary how much the talent pool for the character has regressed. m2k himself included.

I think you need to go into more detail about pretty much everything single point you brought up.

Players regressing? Misunderstood? What problems? What tools to cover which problems? Positioning? Platform play vs falco instead of ledge play?

 

[MasterShake]

Is pivoting dtilt even a thing.

**** I hate learning new things lol.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

You can pivot into any attack. Although, the better thing would be to do what bones or knight said awhile back. Practice dash dancing and pivoting into a stand. Something like a hard press to dash, then light press the other direction which would be enough to trigger a turn around, but not far enough to keep dashing. When you do that marth would just turn around and finish in a stand. Then you can worry about doing an input for an utilt or dtilt.

Its much faster than dd -> wavedash in place -> attack which is really the only benefit to pivoting. Otherwise, wavedash is still better in that you can move backwards or forwards while attacking. Pivoting is really only good for attacking in place.

 

[Strong Badam]

umbreon never said that players regressed. he said the talent pool has. in 2005 we had ken & azen both playing very effective and very unique styles of Marth, as well as other marth players that weren't as well known doing similar. a talent pool is something like the group of players maining a character that have the talent necessary to be a top player within a character, which currently only M2K possesses for this character but he doesn't put in the work to improve much anymore.

 

[Deleted member]

I think you need to go into more detail about pretty much everything single point you brought up.

Players regressing? Misunderstood? What problems? What tools to cover which problems? Positioning? Platform play vs falco instead of ledge play?

players regressing - the level of the marth players themselves relative to their competition is probably the lowest point since the game's release

misunderstood - very few players understand that marth needs to stay aggressive, and that he has to actively pressure the opponent as much as possible by covering positioning options and what that even means, very few marths don't do bad things like blind dash attacks or giving the opponent free lag from aerials, very few players exploit marth's frame traps into reliable combo starters, etc. these were all fairly obvious things to the good players from several years ago.

problems - marth has a few less obvious problems that frequently catch players such that they are never adapted to, such as marth's bad combo weight, most of marth's sword attacks starting high and ending low, how do deal with an opponent that's "too close", jigglypuff's entire character, etc.

tools - most of marth's problems can be solved with subtle movement tricks, many of them based around his dash, or say like his dash attack grab hitting a crouching jigglypuff. i don't think the character is being used to his potential.

marth's positioning game could be its own book

 

[Mahone]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?list=U...=ttdc22S5JIQ&feature=player_detailpage#t=180s

What should I be doing more in this matchup? More moves to attempt to shut down Jiggs or move around to keep good space? Because I feel like if I move around too much, my next attack becomes too predictable because I have stop and attack him but it seemed like I had a hard time to get in the angleIs where my attacks would hit vs his. It looked like I had the same problem with Ganon except that at least I have the speed to keep up.

Wow, that first match is great... U definitely have the potential to beat him with marth

A lot of mistakes were just little tech errors that got punished, its probably hard to switch from ganon to marth in tourney fluidly, especially if ur only using him in that mu

Ask for a warmup next time before playing

You also just need to sit down and play a jiggs for a while... U didnt take some guaranteed combos and tried some combos that never work vs jiggs, along with doing a decent bit of high risk low reward restable stuff

As for ur actually strategy errors, there are a few but overall i think u have the right idea on how to play it...

First off, always remember jiggs loves to just jump around when shes above u to get u to commit so she can come down for free...

You kept swinging assumin hbox would attack right away but you should always let jiggs burn like 2 jumps before u start guessin what shes gonna come down with and tbh u can react a lot so its not even guessin all the time...

Just getting in a good position under jiggs and playing super reactive is op... In theory if u are ready for her options, most of the time the worst that happens is u eat one bair and di and dont get comboed but when u play anxious like what ur doin ull find u get stuck in awkward spots and bair chained all the way to the shadow realm

Also u seem to just use moves you know are good vs jiggs... Like ftilt is gdlk vs jiggs but ur usin it in really bad spots that wont ever hit hbox, i can try to explain how to use it if u want but i cant think of how to describe it well atm

Also, dont be afraid to pressure jiggs at the edge, marth is such a ***** for jiggs at the edge if the marth knows what hes doing, going on a plat and again just playing reactive is really strong, ur constantly threatening fall through dair while being in a good position to guard high, but again u have to have some jiggs exp to know what ur doing and how to bait her movement

Game 2 u just panic a lot, u just need icewater in ur veins vs jiggs since she can put u in a lot of situations that SHOULD make u panic but u gotta keep cool... This comes with practice too though

u have to fear the edge, ur recovery was good... U didnt mix it up after he got used to u attacking but tbh that wouldnt of saved u that much, the bigger issue was ur way of just going to the edge without a plan just swinging... In this mu u have the time to take space slowly and position urself where u want, u dont need to just jump bair ALLIN and hope it hits

I can write more later i guess but u should just ask knightpreator since i play the jiggs side so i might be missin some stuff

 

[.Ðempt]

your first mistake is assuming m2k has figured everything out. he has done amazing things for marth, don't get me wrong, but he's just a player. he's just a human. he can see things only from his perspective. when you improve, you will see things differently from m2k and thus be able to bring out some of your own metagame-defining changes.

Neutral position/zoning techniques, Dtilt uses, stronger edgeguards, better methods of juggling/setting up kills, possibly pivoting.....that is just what came to mind when I thought of all that Marth can improve upon.

There's always work to be done, especially in Melee. =)

With this post, we've gone back to debate. You misread my post entirely, but I'll reiterate.

"I'm well aware that M2K being M2K has figured out nearly everything we know for Marth. But what does Marth possibly have that we haven't explored yet that could be metagame defining for him, if of course it isn't already? Not including everything we already DO know about this character."

Now I'm not trying to be disrespectful towards you when I say all this. I've seen your Marth plenty, and I'm well aware of how good it is. But I'm not saying M2K has built the Marth we know from scratch. I'll even correct myself in this manner:

- Ken gave us the base of what Marth should be.
- M2K went further in exploiting many of Marth's strong points.
- Marth mains everywhere incorporate their own style into their gameplay.

All of the above is great, but we're do not have this character down to a science. If we did, we'd see a lot more of Marth instead of Fox and Falco, two characters who are currently running the tier list because of their well known frame advantage and easily comprehensible moveset. So instead of consistently analyzing every person's post and nitpicking it to the dots on the "i"'s, let's try to figure out what this character needs to do more in-game.

Now, I have to agree with mers and say Side-B at low percents isn't a good choice, specifically because of SDI and CC. Lower percents, Marth needs to space moves, and get grabs. However, Side-B is a great mix-up moves for interrupting aerials, and even grounded characters at mid-high percents. There's been multiple good Falcon players that I use Side-B specifically for, and I'm able to hit all four sequences of the move on them, which in doing so, pops them up into the air, and allows me to continue punishing them. It can also work as a wonderful bait out of a dash dance as well. Side-B does need to be explored a little more though on what it can possibly do.

Another good point I saw by Sveet and Xeylode is the pivot frame in dash dancing. Pivot grabbing is great for when you're getting chased by a character you're trying to get away from but can't escape their approach. Pivot tilting is also a great option, especially DTilt. Not only are you taking advantage of Marth's frame data with the pivot, but then the IASA frames on the DTilt would allow an extremely smooth follow up that's extremely difficult to escape, especially when the IASA leads into a grab. Would be interesting to see some other opinions as to what we can do with the IASA frames instead of just grabbing.

All that we've discussed has been great, but I'd just like to see a bit more on Marth's ground game improvement as a player base.

How do you guys feel about Marth's jab (comes out on frame 3 I do believe, correct me if I'm wrong)? What can we use jab more in, if its possible?

 

[Mahone]

U tell em son... Stop nitpikin ******

Sideb beats falcon.

/thiswhole****ingadvicethread

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

*umbreon specifics

K. This makes more sense.

umbreon never said that players regressed. he said the talent pool has. in 2005 we had ken & azen both playing very effective and very unique styles of Marth, as well as other marth players that weren't as well known doing similar. a talent pool is something like the group of players maining a character that have the talent necessary to be a top player within a character, which currently only M2K possesses for this character but he doesn't put in the work to improve much anymore.

In other words, there seems to be a lack of players who could bring the character to new heights? Normally, if you ever look to a player for reference on what a character can do you might look at pp, m2k, armada, hbox, mango, axe, etc.

How do you guys feel about Marth's jab (comes out on frame 3 I do believe, correct me if I'm wrong)? What can we use jab more in, if its possible?

Basically wherever you could dd into a jc grab against an aerial approach, you could try replacing that with dd pivot jab. I've not had good luck with doing tilts at all, but pivot jabs are fairy simple to get down.

 

[Bones0]

I'm not buying pivot dtilt being good. It sounds really badass of course, but as a spacie, one of my strict rules about playing Marth is to pounce with an overshot aerial any time he turns his back on me. He only has WD and Counter OoS if you initiate shield pressure on his back, and if you've just dashed away, WDing in addition to that almost always places you near the ledge. So I feel like if you try to pivot dtilt, you're just going to dtilt right under everyone's approach because everyone takes Marth turning around as a free approach. I know when I'm playing Falco, Fox, Falcon (ESPECIALLY), Marth, and even Jiggs, I abuse this to the fullest. SHFFLing at Marth's dash away (assuming you're spaced closed enough to him) is just the textbook best answer, and largely the reason why Marths who try to spam defense get run over constantly. Obviously you could just say the Marth needs to dash away when he's further away, but then his dtilt will whiff. Why? Because pivot dtilt is almost the same spacing needed for pivot grab. Good players don't just approach into Marth's pivot options because it's just such a normal thing to expect and his only real option once he's dashed away. They'll end up seeing Marth dash away, realize they can't guarantee they'll hit him, so they'll close down space for free while the Marth panics because he just gave up stage to trap the opponent doing something dumb and they didn't fall for it. Ftilt and fsmash have more range so they would be the only dependable pivot options, but if you're only pivoting back to use them, it just seems suboptimal compared to grab which can be done on reaction by pivoting into shield, or dashing back and then forward into an aerial/grab.

tl;dr
Marth players need to stop relying on dash back. It doesn't work anymore.

 

[AustinRC]

Dash attack works but people don't realize WHEN it works. It works when your opponent is trying to run away. That's basically the only time it's usefu thoughl. : /

 

[Bones0]

Even then it doesn't work because they can just expect it every time they dash away since it's literally the only thing Marth can do with that much range. I said all of this already. >_>

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Bones you still have more to learn

Mada mada dane

 

[Deleted member]

tl;dr
Marth players need to stop relying on dash back. It doesn't work anymore.

Depends. Dashdance still works, but his camping game does not. Dashdancing =/= forfeiting stage or stage control.

Dash attack works but people don't realize WHEN it works. It works when your opponent is trying to run away. That's basically the only time it's usefu thoughl. : /

Dtilt is better. more disjointed, less lag, and pinning them near the edge ~= a mid-stage juggle.

dash attack is pretty bad tbh, the main reason to use dash attack is when you need a launcher, know it will hit, dtilt isn't better at the time, and it's going to give you something better than a grab could. i think basically the only time i dash attack with marth is under falco laser and to finish combos at the edge for dash attack > dair kills, pretty rarely.

i don't think pivot dtilt is good either, but thats because it's not realistic to space the tip. just grab them.

 

[MT_]

Dash attack in neutral game is bad but it isn't THAT bad guys. You can't just claim that dtilt is better because running up->dtilt isn't nearly as fast at reaching the far range as dash attack, which is essentially the only reason why anyone here is saying dash attack has niche uses in the first place.

I also think it's decent for juggling when they are fading away at that range that you can barely get them with only dash attack. AKA niche dash attack range usage (and if they don't have a jump it's easy bake unless they totally call it out and airdodge or something, in which case you might still have frame advantage anyways depending on timing variations).

 

[leffen]

Dash attack is faster than Dtilt, can be used right out of a dash dance (doesnt have to be dash canceled before), does more damage, has a bigger hitbox (esp for catching landings/jumps) and leads into true followups unlike dtilts ihopetheydontreactproperly followups

Not saying dash attack is strictly better, but its not bad at all (possibly more situational though).

Dash back with marth is still really good but it needs to be used properly... just because the one awful marth you've played against doesnt use it well doesnt mean that the entire tactic is useless bones.


Marths biggest problems in todays metagame is that he doesnt have enough players who are willing to put in work with him, thats basically it
I'm pretty damn sure that "camping" still works just fine for M2K, and I'm sure that you could afford to play more aggressive, but thats not the source of the problem. The problem is that every damn marth main either cops out all the time, is too lazy to explore and learn all of marth tech (there is A LOT that I havent seen anyone use yet >_>) or is heavily lacking in the fundamentals/mindset department

 

[Dr Peepee]

what kinda stuff haven't you seen used?

besides pivoting/edgecanceling, I already know of/remember those.

I also remember you making a comment about side B over jab so you don't have to include that either.

 

[Bones0]

Depends. Dashdance still works, but his camping game does not. Dashdancing =/= forfeiting stage or stage control.

Absolutely. That's why I specifically mentioned dash back as being bad, not DDing in general because DDing doesn't require them to approach like a noob for you to capitalize. You can just dash back in towards them and do a lot of stuff.

Dash attack in neutral game is bad but it isn't THAT bad guys. You can't just claim that dtilt is better because running up->dtilt isn't nearly as fast at reaching the far range as dash attack, which is essentially the only reason why anyone here is saying dash attack has niche uses in the first place.

I also think it's decent for juggling when they are fading away at that range that you can barely get them with only dash attack. AKA niche dash attack range usage (and if they don't have a jump it's easy bake unless they totally call it out and airdodge or something, in which case you might still have frame advantage anyways depending on timing variations).

Run up dtilt was what I was doing a while ago, which is why I never used dtilt. It's definitely worse than dash attack, but that's because you shouldn't be dash canceling your dtilts. I learned pretty quickly how much easier/bteter it is to be WDing into dtilt.

Dash attack is faster than Dtilt, can be used right out of a dash dance (doesnt have to be dash canceled before), does more damage, has a bigger hitbox (esp for catching landings/jumps) and leads into true followups unlike dtilts ihopetheydontreactproperly followups

Not saying dash attack is strictly better, but its not bad at all (possibly more situational though).

Dash back with marth is still really good but it needs to be used properly... just because the one awful marth you've played against doesnt use it well doesnt mean that the entire tactic is useless bones.

Dash attack is certainly not faster than dtilt... You can't even dash cancel out of dash dance, only a full run (which is funny; I guess we should have named it run cancelling lol). I agree that dash attack is better in pretty much every way if you can land it. I just don't think you'll see good players that know how to play Marth getting hit by it out of neutral. Like I said, the spacing for it makes it super telegraphed. If they're at the range where they can simply dash attack out of their DD, they're DDing an awkwardly far distance away.

Me saying dash back is bad isn't just based off of one Marth. Against every Marth I've played that's one of my major focuses in neutral, and it works consistently. If I'm close and they dash away, they become free and I just plow through them. WD back is basically the same thing, but you don't turn around so you still get to keep all your great OoS options if they do approach, and if they only try to close space instead of fully approach, you can still fair/dtilt/utilt.

Marths biggest problems in todays metagame is that he doesnt have enough players who are willing to put in work with him, thats basically it
I'm pretty damn sure that "camping" still works just fine for M2K, and I'm sure that you could afford to play more aggressive, but thats not the source of the problem. The problem is that every damn marth main either cops out all the time, is too lazy to explore and learn all of marth tech (there is A LOT that I havent seen anyone use yet >_>) or is heavily lacking in the fundamentals/mindset department

Mew2King didn't use any dash back at all in the second set of Zenith GFs until this stock. He does two dash backs since PP was at the ledge and it worked out, but then he does two more back to back and both times PP just lands right on the back of his shield and he has no options. He does it a third time as PP jumps off the right plat and gets hit. Goes for a fourth pivot back into a grab and gets hit again. Fire transformation disappears and he does a final one giving PP a free approach on his shield.

Last match on FD:
Whole first stock - Basically gets 02d because he dashed back 3-4 times in a row.
17:10 - He does get a dash back grab because PP did a sloppy AC bair drifting towards him.
17:25 - Gets lasered and consequently cornered because he dashed back.
18:20 - Dash back and gets laser-grabbed again.
18:45 - PP gets ancy and goes for laser into immediate dair without hit confirming even though he knows better. ;P

So yeah, I would definitely say that camping with dash back doesn't still work for M2K vs. other top players.

 

[Dr Peepee]

woo zenith

sick tourney


Dtilt handles CC'ing lots better than dash attack and that's a big deal. if you get a good read, then by all means dash attack is clearly superior.

 

[Tee ay eye]

marth's backdash is "weak" because marth can't cover his back as effectively as he can cover his front (which is probably why you can make your opponent super antsy and willing to move during corner-pressure by turning your back to them). you can work around this weakness by doing things like pivoting, not turning back (i.e. keep running and then dash cancel into a tree grab or a fsmash or something), or some other movement silliness.

i wouldn't recommend phasing backdash out of your game completely because i feel that it's an extreme that removes a huge chunk of depth from your gameplay. on one extreme, you backdash really poorly and get punished for it by people who watch out for it, which is bad. on the other extreme, you don't backdash at all, which can be bad for one of two reasons: a) your opponent will catch on to the fact that you never backdash, allowing them to figure you out more handily or b) you're missing out on good bait opportunities. if your opponent is ALWAYS watching out for your backdashes, you can make that work against them by using it to bait them into something (this worked against axe for a while when i first figured it out). you just need to give your opponent a reason to respect it.

p.s.

UMBREON, what do you think are must-watch marth matches from pre-2007? it'd be monstrously easy to list off players, but i think your point would be better illustrated (not disagreeing at all, just want more info because i'm lazy) if you chose a handful of matches that fit really well with what you're trying to say.

 

[Cactuar]

Props for mentioning tree grabbing.

 

[Bones0]

marth's backdash is "weak" because marth can't cover his back as effectively as he can cover his front (which is probably why you can make your opponent super antsy and willing to move during corner-pressure by turning your back to them). you can work around this weakness by doing things like pivoting, not turning back (i.e. keep running and then dash cancel into a tree grab or a fsmash or something), or some other movement silliness.

i wouldn't recommend phasing backdash out of your game completely because i feel that it's an extreme that removes a huge chunk of depth from your gameplay. on one extreme, you backdash really poorly and get punished for it by people who watch out for it, which is bad. on the other extreme, you don't backdash at all, which can be bad for one of two reasons: a) your opponent will catch on to the fact that you never backdash, allowing them to figure you out more handily or b) you're missing out on good bait opportunities. if your opponent is ALWAYS watching out for your backdashes, you can make that work against them by using it to bait them into something (this worked against axe for a while when i first figured it out). you just need to give your opponent a reason to respect it.

p.s.

UMBREON, what do you think are must-watch marth matches from pre-2007? it'd be monstrously easy to list off players, but i think your point would be better illustrated (not disagreeing at all, just want more info because i'm lazy) if you chose a handful of matches that fit really well with what you're trying to say.

Yes, I don't think anyone should just never dash back, especially because you need it to DD. I just wish people would stop relying on it as a means to get grabs. I think dashing back into pivot grabs used to work all the time, but then people learned how to approach, but we still have a bunch of Marths trying to pivot grab and getting run over for it. I still think it's a great tool in many situations that aren't neutral, such as when they're on the ledge and LH an attack, when they're cornered and are likely to make a desperate move to escape, when they are committing from too far away and you can react, etc.


Nice thread title, Cactuar. lol

 

[Cactuar]

The problem with Marth's dash back is that it needs to follow a dash forward that threatens the opponent to be effective.

 

[Dr Peepee]

The problem with Marth's dash back is that it needs to follow a dash forward that threatens the opponent to be effective.

Spacing+timing+Dtilt+dash into rising(usually retreating) SH Fair conditioning can't achieve that threatening forward dash?

 

[Cactuar]

It can, but how many Marth players fully utilize his offensive options and achieve that level of threat?

Alt text: Marth can have a very threatening offensive game, but few play him that way these days. Not playing him that way wildly reduces the effectiveness of his backwards dash.

 

[Dr Peepee]

It can, but how many Marth players fully utilize his offensive options and achieve that level of threat?

Alt text: Marth can have a very threatening offensive game, but few play him that way these days. Not playing him that way wildly reduces the effectiveness of his backwards dash.

So that's not a character flaw so much as a player one. Good to know.

 

[Bones0]

It can, but how many Marth players fully utilize his offensive options and achieve that level of threat?

Alt text: Marth can have a very threatening offensive game, but few play him that way these days. Not playing him that way wildly reduces the effectiveness of his backwards dash.

yunopostmoar?!

 

[Tee ay eye]

Props for mentioning tree grabbing.

btw, i think that overuse of dash attack stems from both a poor understanding of (marth's) aggression as a whole (i don't think people fully grasp that you don't have to HIT your opponent to make successful aggression) and a limited option pool in terms of marth's other aggressive options (WD forward jab/tilt/grab, SHFFL/AC aerials that are used to have a mental effect aside from hitting the opponent, empty hops into initiates, empty hops into wavelands, platform movement, other silliness)

 

[OverLord]

what kinda stuff haven't you seen used?

besides pivoting/edgecanceling, I already know of/remember those.

Pivoting and Edge-Cancelling as you said, and I'd say Powershielding and Shield-Dropping too.


Regarding the backdash discussion: pivot-Nairs cover well overshoot aerials, baiting Fox/Falco with a backdash and punish them with Nair make them respect your dash, also grabbing earlier an overrunning Fox is fun.

It's not really that backdash is bad, it depends on how you are spacing yourself.

 

[Bob Money]

Pivoting and Edge-Cancelling as you said, and I'd say Powershielding and Shield-Dropping too.


Regarding the backdash discussion: pivot-Nairs cover well overshoot aerials, baiting Fox/Falco with a backdash and punish them with Nair make them respect your dash, also grabbing earlier an overrunning Fox is fun.

It's not really that backdash is bad, it depends on how you are spacing yourself.

Good post, Sei da Roma? Sei Italiano, allora quando il mio amico Sfat e andato a roma, hai giocato con lui?

I really like Cactuars posts, 99 percent of the reason i come to marth forums. He cuts right through the fat. Used your advice vs shiek that you gave like last year because I forgot how to play that matchup and it helped a tremendous amount.
Also I think 95 percent of the questions answered here could be answered watching top level marth videos. I really think alot of the smash community needs to learn HOW to learn and watch videos.

 

[Bones0]

Pivoting and Edge-Cancelling as you said, and I'd say Powershielding and Shield-Dropping too.


Regarding the backdash discussion: pivot-Nairs cover well overshoot aerials, baiting Fox/Falco with a backdash and punish them with Nair make them respect your dash, also grabbing earlier an overrunning Fox is fun.

It's not really that backdash is bad, it depends on how you are spacing yourself.

If they are reacting to your dash back, you definitely do not have time to pivot nair. It will work occasionally, but only because most people suck at approaching Marth, and we are human so we will have instances where we commit to aerials even when it's unsafe. I would rather just AC nair in place instead of dashing back and then doing it. You don't gain anything by dashing back. You just give up space. The chances of them or you getting hit are pretty much the same.

 

[Deleted member]

So that's not a character flaw so much as a player one. Good to know.

WOW i've been telling you this since last november when i started giving you marth advice in texts and AIM ****.

no love kevin

edit: tai i'll dig some **** up. a lot of the older videos are gone though.

 

[Bones0]

MLG vids (that used to be on sweexignorance) are on Juggleguy's channel, I believe. What a homie. There's a thread in Video Discussion that should make it super easy for you to find some good matches. :D

 

[Dr Peepee]

man umbreon I like saying things for the people sometimes!