Important Carefully Ask PPMD about the Tiara Guy

[knightpraetor]

dash attack is good.

if people are overshooting aerials on you, attack them first..or better yet grab them... it works.

 

[.Ðempt]

Really enjoying where the thread is going.

Also, would be really anxious to see some of the vids posted.

 

[OverLord]

Good post, Sei da Roma? Sei Italiano, allora quando il mio amico Sfat e andato a roma, hai giocato con lui?

Yep I played with Zac for a couple of days, he told me you talk a lot of languages.
My italian training is showing up results, Zac is doing great lately

If they are reacting to your dash back, you definitely do not have time to pivot nair. It will work occasionally, but only because most people suck at approaching Marth, and we are human so we will have instances where we commit to aerials even when it's unsafe. I would rather just AC nair in place instead of dashing back and then doing it. You don't gain anything by dashing back. You just give up space. The chances of them or you getting hit are pretty much the same.

Actually it depends, I can always pivot a retreating Nair/Fair to be safer.
The point is, if I'm too close to my opponent and he thinks I might dash back to adjust my spacing, he's going to overshoot, and I'm going to be punished 'cause I'm probably too close to dash back and Nair in time, so the better solution there would be doing something in place.

But let's assume the Marth is trying to bait an approach by DDing, if he's doing it right, he won't be too close to be punished easily, so he'll manage to have enough room to react to an overshot run/aerial with backdash>pivot grab/Nair.

Even in the case you misspace yourself you can always ASDI the aerial and grab, that's mostly what M2K does against Fox.

What you're saying is true, I'm just saying it depends heavily on the spacing of the players and how well they can read each other.

 

[Cactuar]

man umbreon I like saying things for the people sometimes!

Mowwwwwww. You should know that PP and I only have mock conversations on smashboards as a reflection of the conversations we have in realtime.

 

[Bones0]

Yep I played with Zac for a couple of days, he told me you talk a lot of languages.
My italian training is showing up results, Zac is doing great lately



Actually it depends, I can always pivot a retreating Nair/Fair to be safer.
The point is, if I'm too close to my opponent and he thinks I might dash back to adjust my spacing, he's going to overshoot, and I'm going to be punished 'cause I'm probably too close to dash back and Nair in time, so the better solution there would be doing something in place.

But let's assume the Marth is trying to bait an approach by DDing, if he's doing it right, he won't be too close to be punished easily, so he'll manage to have enough room to react to an overshot run/aerial with backdash>pivot grab/Nair.

Even in the case you misspace yourself you can always ASDI the aerial and grab, that's mostly what M2K does against Fox.

What you're saying is true, I'm just saying it depends heavily on the spacing of the players and how well they can read each other.

I can agree with this.

 

[Deleted member]

Mowwwwwww. You should know that PP and I only have mock conversations on smashboards as a reflection of the conversations we have in realtime.

at some point the scrub factor overtakes my sense of rationale

 

[Brookman]

what is this jank???

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

The measurement of jank? Is that what you mean? Perhaps 0.3 cactuars.

Also, ledge canceled UpB.

 

[Dr Peepee]

I've never tried to do it but it's really good situationally.

Maybe I should practice doing it.

 

[.Chipmunk.]

So I've been toying with saying this for a while, but I'm drunk, so I figure that now is the best time to say it, but what what do you guys think about that falling nair trajectory that sends the opponent at like an angle between fair and uair that's really good for combos?

(If you need a demo I can provide one, but I'm all about improving the combo ability of our character and this is definitely one of them.)

 

[Wenbobular]

Uhh
What if they just DI away and you get no combo

The actual mixup I think Marths should be doing is Fair vs Uair because DIing away from Uair sometimes leads you to be offstage and Dairable

Nair is like the least threatening aerial ever though <_<

Although I'm only talking about fastfallers haha
Maybe Nair is legit vs like ... other characters or something ...

 

[Bones0]

I like nair just because it has less KB due to the effect of it pulling them inwards. If they DI fair/uair away at higher %s you can't always connect, or you get something lame like a DJ fair and they're safe. If you nair first, you can tack on extra damage, get them a little closer to the ledge, and THEN use your fair or whatever to get them the rest of the way off stage.

 

[.Chipmunk.]

Uhh
What if they just DI away and you get no combo

The actual mixup I think Marths should be doing is Fair vs Uair because DIing away from Uair sometimes leads you to be offstage and Dairable

Nair is like the least threatening aerial ever though <_<

Although I'm only talking about fastfallers haha
Maybe Nair is legit vs like ... other characters or something ...

Nah, them DIing away is fine because you're hitting with the weaker part of the nair. The hitbox closer to marth's head.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Nair is awesome on floaties at lower percent, and okay on FF'ers at weird times.

 

[.Ðempt]

NAir is an awesome move on everyone, quite honestly. I prefer to use it against airdodges I read, shield poking, and retreating. I don't see too much of it though.

 

[.Chipmunk.]

Did you guys see Mooninite at Rule 6? That guy was using nair like a boss. He just wasn't following it up well.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

Okay, I am having a problem with spacies when it comes to edgeguarding.

When I can get a spacie offstage and they are limited in only a few options, its easy enough to shut them down by limiting their angles by going out after them offstage. A wall of fair sort of covers nearly everything. However, I'm having issues trying to check off options when I am unable to get offstage and have to limit their options from the stage itself.

I guess the first situation is when a spacie is firebird/fox from above the ledge, but still offstage. And I am unable to get offstage or even to the ledge before the move fires. Most of the time, they can either go directly at me, or try to downangle towards the ledge. I do not know why, but it seems like there are two different timings for when they go to the ledge (faster) or when they head straight for you (slower). The up angles are not problem since they are so slow coming back down. Do I have to be super far off the ledge in order to cover the down angle or might I not simply be fast enough to cover that option?

 

[Dr Peepee]

You have to kinda predict the down angle, but you can react to the one coming at you. It's because the move ends sooner when they sweetspot than when they keep flying at you lol.

You can cover most down angled up-Bs with Dtilt I believe. Mayyybe even shieldbreaker/Fair. Not sure I need to test a lot of situations for that.

Going out there when they up-B is best, though.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Nair leads to **** horizontal juggles

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

^Random fun fact I didn't know about. Nair does not tipper at all. So, non-tip bair < nair < tipped bair.

You have to kinda predict the down angle, but you can react to the one coming at you. It's because the move ends sooner when they sweetspot than when they keep flying at you lol.

You can cover most down angled up-Bs with Dtilt I believe. Mayyybe even shieldbreaker/Fair. Not sure I need to test a lot of situations for that.

Going out there when they up-B is best, though.

Yeah, going out there is best I noticed, but sometimes situations call for that not being possible. An fsmash tipper to the other side of the stage is such a situation. Fox gets to the other side of the stage faster than marth can traverse the terrain to get there sometimes. So, I find fox is able be in start-up lag by the time I get to the ledge, but I would be hit for trying to run off (or even give up stage control if I make a wrong read and they go for the upper platforms. Which was the whole purpose of my question anyway.

I have tried Dtilt, but depending upon the height of firefox, I simply get smacked in the face for Dtilting below their firefox if they decided to go at me. Although, I guess its expected if I have to try predicting it in the first place.

 

[Tee ay eye]

i think nair does have a tipper

im pretty sure i've heard 2 different sound effects for it before (as opposed to the usual 3)

 

[AustinRC]

I'm pretty sure nair tips as well. Nair leads into some amazing pivot fsmash kills against certain characters.

 

[.Chipmunk.]

Okay, I am having a problem with spacies when it comes to edgeguarding.

When I can get a spacie offstage and they are limited in only a few options, its easy enough to shut them down by limiting their angles by going out after them offstage. A wall of fair sort of covers nearly everything. However, I'm having issues trying to check off options when I am unable to get offstage and have to limit their options from the stage itself.

I guess the first situation is when a spacie is firebird/fox from above the ledge, but still offstage. And I am unable to get offstage or even to the ledge before the move fires. Most of the time, they can either go directly at me, or try to downangle towards the ledge. I do not know why, but it seems like there are two different timings for when they go to the ledge (faster) or when they head straight for you (slower). The up angles are not problem since they are so slow coming back down. Do I have to be super far off the ledge in order to cover the down angle or might I not simply be fast enough to cover that option?

Depends on what you are covering that low angle with. If they are coming from above and you think they are gonna head towards the ledge, you don't normally want to do an attack that starts high and ends low (fsmash, neutral b). It's just more difficult to time because they are travelling in the same direction as those attacks. I find it best to use a move that starts low and ends high such as utilt, ftilt, jab. That's sort of my rule of thumb. If they travel low to high, I use a move thats high to low, and if they travel high to low, I use a move thats low to high. I think other Marth's can back me up on this one.

 

[knightpraetor]

chipmunk is right. also, it's very important to consider what range you can reach before you get to the edge. if you can reach teeter animation then jab and dtilt can also cover a lot of angles.

if you're too close , then dtilt's hand is at risk of getting hit from certain high firefoxes, so i'm betting about half max dtilt range would be optimal for spacing dtilt. However, while i've used it some, i've also messed up the timing and been punished for being close to the ledge, so i usually just use spaced ftilt, since even if you mess up you don't get punished.

in general, if you're far away dtilt and jab both suck in terms of ledge coverage and you are better off using ftilt

if you can get close jab/dtilt are technically better since you also weak cover the firefox high.

but I find that there are a few angles (the super low horizontal one) that I have trouble hitting with jab, but that one is also easier to hit with dtilt.

I think getting close and choosing between dtilt and jab based on position is probably really good, but i'll be honest and say that most of the time i just ftilt and get poor coverage if they go high. Then other times I just hard read them going high.

ftilt may also give them another chance to recover though, so I really should work on the dtilt and figure out the timing cause theoretically dtilt and jab seem much better


oh needless to say, dtilt is not always safe if they have a horizontal option to go straight at you. so if you choose to you dtilt/jab you have to think a lot more about their position before choosing a move, while ftilt you just use no matter which angle and you're fine.

in this situation you should do the short hop and cover both with fair. sh fair seems really good too..i dunno why i don't use it much...i know i used it for a while and then phased it out for some reason.. probably DI up and away into phantasms or something..but they can do that on ftilt too so..

i'm guessing that on closer range firefoxes when doing sh fair you can't react to the difference in timings between the angled firefox and the firefox straight at you. So then you risk getting hit...but when they are far away sh fair just seems strictly better when i think about it

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

optimal range would probably be with the very tip, after factoring in maximum grab range.

Jumping in out of context


edit----

jumping towards the edge is a good solution when you are trying to gimp. You can combo off of tips and it hits below the stage. Other than that, grabbing the edge is always the best solution if its available. Ledgehop bair, ledgehop uair->fsmash, invincible sideb->jank, invincibile reverse fair->dair

 

[Bones0]

If they up-B high off stage and you can't get to them in time, just ftilt. It covers straight and downward angles, and you don't have a lot of lag so you can cover high angles on reaction. If it's Fox's up-B, he might get away if he goes high and lands on a platform, in which case you just have to pick your poison. Either leave the high option open and make him fight his way down from the top plat, or leave the ledge option and make him fight his way off the ledge. You should really just be hitting them out of the beginning of their up-B in the first place though...

 

[knightpraetor]

meh i am going to experiment with whether you can react with sh fair to both the angled firefox and the firefox straight at you at various distances today. It seems like sh fair is infinitely better if it's safe.

 

[Bones0]

You'd have to jump right from the edge to get most downward angles. Ftilt barely catches it, and it goes significantly further than fair. When you're testing, just try some WDs into ftilt and I promise you'll like it.

 

[VietGeek]

i think nair does have a tipper

im pretty sure i've heard 2 different sound effects for it before (as opposed to the usual 3)

There is indeed a "flub spot" sound effect but all the hitboxes have identical damage and knockback stats.

 

[SwiftBass]

hey PeePee watched that interview from that euro tourney. good notes man. Especially about practice. Tried some stuff tonight. big help. I feel like I accomplished more.

 

[MasterShake]

Did you guys see Mooninite at Rule 6? That guy was using nair like a boss. He just wasn't following it up well.

Dude I wish I was a boss instead of suking all the time and getting curb stomped by sfat.

But nair ***** and anyone who says otherwise is wrong beyond comprehension.

Also I have a hypothesis based on iffy personal exp. that nearly all moves have some sort of "sweetspot" on them.

 

[knightpraetor]

can some of the tech skill gurus get me some AR diagrams of marth's dair vs peach's umbrella sweetspot and whether it's possible to outrange and spike it realistically? i get it occasionally, but I am very curious about the relative size of the umbrella hitbox and how far up peach's hand has to be.

anything to increase my spiking odds. the falco boards had gifs showing the dsmash vs peach, so i figure someone has to be able to do this for marth.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Aim for her hand that is lifting the umbrella

 

[knightpraetor]

so max range tip dair with the front is probably the easiest to time? and aim for her hand you say. k i will play with it. I was really annoyed that I was only getting the spike to hit once in a while. i think the problem is that you can't be certain she will try to sweetspot and then you are probably likely to get hit if they go higher

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

umbrella is pretty disjointed so the spacing is kinda rough. Marth can stay outside of the range and dtilt after, which is more or less effective while being much easier to perform

 

[knightpraetor]

except at low percent when the dtilt doesn't do anything to peach. i can probably hit fsmash 100% of the time too, but they will just DI it and then eat one bair if they are smart coming back, gain height from that, and then get on for around 30. spike kills, but the timing is too hard. I just need to practice it with someone for an hour or two

 

[Bones0]

Just turn around and use the back side of dair. I feel like that would outspace it horizontally pretty easily as long as you time it so the end of the dair move is out at the right time.

 

[Dr Peepee]

There is indeed a "flub spot" sound effect but all the hitboxes have identical damage and knockback stats.

Was always curious about this. Very cool.

Also, good stuff working on Melee SDR. I need to get into that.

hey PeePee watched that interview from that euro tourney. good notes man. Especially about practice. Tried some stuff tonight. big help. I feel like I accomplished more.

Check out my post on my Falco thread for a much more comprehensive list of training tools. I'm glad I was able to help dude!

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

except at low percent when the dtilt doesn't do anything to peach. i can probably hit fsmash 100% of the time too, but they will just DI it and then eat one bair if they are smart coming back, gain height from that, and then get on for around 30. spike kills, but the timing is too hard. I just need to practice it with someone for an hour or two

dtilt and immediately turn around and wavedash to edge. Game over for peach.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

Nair does not tipper at all.

but all the hitboxes have identical damage and knockback stats.

Was always curious about this. Very cool.

Also, good stuff working on Melee SDR. I need to get into that.

Everyone should get the MasterHand.