Important Carefully Ask PPMD about the Tiara Guy

[knightpraetor]

IB is really good against falcon. He has stuff even PP and M2k could learn from. He beat hax at zenith 2012 right? I remember that set being godlike too

 

[Bones0]

You mean 2011? I don't remember him being at Zenith 2012.

 

[Tee ay eye]

it was apex 2010

 

[knightpraetor]

also, we need a marth video recommendation thread. something with good matches to watch of top level play in the various matches. though in reality i think i have something for most characters. I do feel like I've forgotten the names of a lot of the famous marth vs falco tourney sets though. for fox there are so many m2k **** vids that I don't really have to think about it. but for falco i definitely know i watched some great sets that I no longer know where to find. also is there any pp vs puff out there? i've watched maybe 4 hrs of that live; it's really informative, but most marths are bad against jiggs due to the lack of video footage and experience.

 

[S l o X]

easiest way to punish someone who recoveries with side-b a lot?

i'm thinking just shield after his jump (before he side-bs) and wd oos / react but i feel like i'd just be giving him advantage. jab feels like it works 50% of the time because of how fast they can side-b as opposed to how slow jab feels. (probably wrong on this and need to work on timing) does throwing out double fair work? /:

 

[Bones0]

easiest way to punish someone who recoveries with side-b a lot?

i'm thinking just shield after his jump (before he side-bs) and wd oos / react but i feel like i'd just be giving him advantage. jab feels like it works 50% of the time because of how fast they can side-b as opposed to how slow jab feels. (probably wrong on this and need to work on timing) does throwing out double fair work? /:

Just jab on reaction. It shouldn't be that hard.

 

[MT_]

I like charging neutral-B pre-emptively for people that side-B a lot. Works wonders when they like to side-B at varying high heights and you can jump, charge neutral-B, then follow their fall with your own.


EDIT: but this only works when you know they love side-B. The moment they figure out that you're using neutral-B a lot, they can just start firefoxing/firebirding and then you drop an edgeguard.

 

[Mahone]

neutral-b is a really good choice in that situation as well as doublejab, i think u need the 2nd one to stop them from grabbing the edge, but i don't remember all the details of that

also, i remember hearing that neutral-b started in the air has a diff hitbox or something than starting it on the ground and hits lower, does anyone know what im talking about?

It also depends on what situation ur talking about, m2k has a cool methodical way of dealing with recoveries that involves dairing sidebs, but i dont think its the same situation ur talking about...

are u talking about after you throw them off the stage or what? its gonna be different based on where you are and their percent so that question is not specific enough I.M.O.

 

[Metal Reeper]

Just react and Ftilt. Jab is amazing but after the jab there is still work to be done. Ftilt stops all that nonsense, Ftilt comes out on frame 7. Fsmash comes out on 10. both stay out for 3 frames. Jab comes out in 4 and is also out for 3. Ftilt has good range and has a good start up angle.

 

[MasterShake]

Sometimes I just jump and neutral B, or ledge hop forward and neutral B, and it usually works because people are dumb and try to wait out a forward air but neutral B is like 'nah dude I stay out forever'.

 

[Bones0]

neutral-b is a really good choice in that situation as well as doublejab, i think u need the 2nd one to stop them from grabbing the edge, but i don't remember all the details of that

also, i remember hearing that neutral-b started in the air has a diff hitbox or something than starting it on the ground and hits lower, does anyone know what im talking about?

It also depends on what situation ur talking about, m2k has a cool methodical way of dealing with recoveries that involves dairing sidebs, but i dont think its the same situation ur talking about...

are u talking about after you throw them off the stage or what? its gonna be different based on where you are and their percent so that question is not specific enough I.M.O.

Yes, the second jab is just to push them off, though ideally if you are far enough on the ledge it shouldn't matter. You only need to use it when you don't have time to get all the way out, and if that's the case, I prefer ftilt (especially because of shortens).

Aerial neutral-Bs go to a lower angle, and it is a decently low angle that it protects the ledge better than a regular neutral-B. If you pause when you do it you can actually see your sword go below the "horizon" line. The trick is to make sure that your sword reaches that point BEFORE you land, otherwise it reverts to the grounded hitbox which stops at the horizon.

I think M2K mostly does the reverse bair to DJ dair vs. side-Bs when they were sent off at a low angle because it makes it so you know the general height of where they will be side-Bing. They also usually need to be pretty far off stage because if they up-B instead, you have to have time to land your dair and then edgeguard them with fsmash or w/e.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

I think M2K mostly does the reverse bair to DJ dair vs. side-Bs when they were sent off at a low angle because it makes it so you know the general height of where they will be side-Bing.

Could you explain that a bit more?

 

[.Chipmunk.]

Could you explain that a bit more?

Basically, what M2K does is he watches the fox closely while his marth is facing them. If they use their second jump, he'll jump out off the stage and bair (attacking the opposite direction from them in order to turn himself to face away from them) while staying roughly even with them in height. This is useful because after their jump they can only side b or up b at that point. If they side b, M2K will spend his second jump and dair which will catch them out of their side b. If they up b, the extra delay in recovery will allow him to get closer before using his second jump and bair them or dair them depending upon height/stock count, etc. The key is to not react until they've spent their second jump because their options get much more limited after that. You also want to stay roughly even with them in height. (Yes, fox falls faster, but the recovery stops his falling so marth essentially catches up)

 

[ShroudedOne]

Marth vs Falcon is a really fun, interesting MU in my opinion. Found footage of M2K vs S2J while I was roaming Youtube: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mIos4sbNhLg&feature=related

Not that M2K particularly stands out in the MU or anything, but it's nice to have multiple top level reference points, I think.

 

[Boat Mode]

Any advice on edgeguarding samus? I know it takes forever to kill her but I have a really hard time pinning her down offstage.

 

[knightpraetor]

same idea as vs peach..have to time an interception course while going offstage. if you choose the timing poorly or they floated back while you went out you usually can't cover them..

unless you were placing your jump assuming they would float back, in which case you can hit htem. but there is significantly more risk if the opponent has options to attack (peach's float or samus while recovering) as opposed to something with few options like an umbrella.

however, personally i think in most cases if they are coming down on a 45ish degree downward recovery angle and you anticipate a float back/bomb back, i think you are better off just faking going out there, jump back on stage and burn their float/jump and then jump out again to cover them again.

significantly easier against bombs and umbrella than with floats that last forever. umbrella has the nice effect of them still falling so they have to commit pretty fast..float

 

[Dr Peepee]

Marth has high aerial mobility so Marths should mix between FF'ing and not FF'ing aerials. He can cover LOTS of ground in one SH if he doesn't FF.

For ideas on how to use this, watch Mango's Marth. He does that a decent amount.


If this is obvious then my bad, but I never see anyone talk about it so I thought I'd mention it.

 

[Divinokage]

Well it's definitely not every character that has the luxury of long lasting hitboxes so you'll need to use your jumps in different ways because they can do that. I do this with Ganon too.

All to say that you should play from the character's strengths and do what's necessary to hide your weaknesses or correct them if you can.

 

[MasterShake]

Marth can fade back so well with nair.

 

[Sweet™]

What's the best thing to do when you have a grabbed Fox at 70%?

I was chaingrabbing/utilt regrabbing my opponent a lot today, but when he got to about 70%, I kinda froze up on a safe option.

 

[Boat Mode]

same idea as vs peach..have to time an interception course while going offstage. if you choose the timing poorly or they floated back while you went out you usually can't cover them..

unless you were placing your jump assuming they would float back, in which case you can hit htem. but there is significantly more risk if the opponent has options to attack (peach's float or samus while recovering) as opposed to something with few options like an umbrella.

however, personally i think in most cases if they are coming down on a 45ish degree downward recovery angle and you anticipate a float back/bomb back, i think you are better off just faking going out there, jump back on stage and burn their float/jump and then jump out again to cover them again.

significantly easier against bombs and umbrella than with floats that last forever. umbrella has the nice effect of them still falling so they have to commit pretty fast..float

I'm right at intercepting bomb jumps w/ bairs (off stage or dropping off the ledge) but its the grapple/up b shenanigans.

I have an easier time w/ peach, sometimes you're just miss them when they're really high.

Are there any good on stage options? It really sucks when an edgeguard turns into getting edgeguarded.

EDIT: ^ Between 60ish to 90ish upthrow -> fsmash combos (and is what you should be looking to end your chainthrows w/) but you usually have to walk a little so it tippers at a good angle.

 

[MasterShake]

uthrow mid percents - on platform stages I would try and set up an fsmash with uair or chain of uairs (soft uair tipper so ez mang).

No platforms, I would still uair chain but you could also try to non tip fair fsmash if they suck at DI.

Tipper is prolly the smartest thing, I don't do it though cuz I suck.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

What's the best thing to do when you have a grabbed Fox at 70%?

I was chaingrabbing/utilt regrabbing my opponent a lot today, but when he got to about 70%, I kinda froze up on a safe option.

It depends on a lot of factors such as the stage and where you are on the stage. If you are near the edge you can uthrow->dair no DI and off stage DI. You could instead dthrow->dtilt if they DI towards the center (you have to be quick). Thats not even factoring in platforms.

 

[Dr Peepee]

What's the best thing to do when you have a grabbed Fox at 70%?

I was chaingrabbing/utilt regrabbing my opponent a lot today, but when he got to about 70%, I kinda froze up on a safe option.

Uthrow tipper if you can, but I never do it. I like to Uthrow Fair and see if they DI in for some reason lol. You can get 2 Fairs that way at that percent though I think so they still go pretty far offstage.

Fthrows and Dthrows can be okay if you can trip up their DI for an easy tech chase.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

I think you want Uair on any neutral DI or slight DI away. They could DI one direction from the Uthrow, then if you chase after with an Uair, they can DI in the opposite direction and you can no longer combo Fox. Fair on DI away forces fox towards the direction of your momentum.

 

[knightpraetor]

hey pp does sh fair or full hop fair work better for carrying them when they DI away at 70? I was thinking it might be good to mix in some stuff other than tipper occasionally to keep them on their toes. the main reason most marth mains just tip them all the time is cause if they don't DI, getting a fair setup seems hard..can you sh nair them or do they jump out before then?

thing is I've never really experimented with the other options cause everyone always just takes the tipper.

it would be really nice to be able to punish them for DIing in at 70 instead of taking a perfectly DIed tipper fsmash every time.

also, in regard to grapple recoveries..sometimes there are going to be risks going off stage...you can minimize the risk by going below their trajectory so that you can't get struck by their grapple....most samuses are not going to suddenly fastfall into grapple low since it doesn't sweetspot..though i think they can do that then only go part way up on the grapple fastfall and try to sweetspot their up b..but by then you could be on stage and have another chance..so it's definitely recommended to stay out of the way of the grapple sweetspot when going offstage..just stay a little below their height...

that said, definitely don't watch my vids for that..i remember getting hit by grapple twice like that and then having to risk getting edgeguarded once...

i seem to remember that marth that plays with plup was quite solid..and m2k is really good at edgeguarding in that matchup when i've watched him play friendlies..i don't know if there are any decent sets recorded though

 

[Dr Peepee]

hey pp does sh fair or full hop fair work better for carrying them when they DI away at 70? I was thinking it might be good to mix in some stuff other than tipper occasionally to keep them on their toes. the main reason most marth mains just tip them all the time is cause if they don't DI, getting a fair setup seems hard..can you sh nair them or do they jump out before then?

thing is I've never really experimented with the other options cause everyone always just takes the tipper.

it would be really nice to be able to punish them for DIing in at 70 instead of taking a perfectly DIed tipper fsmash every time.

also, in regard to grapple recoveries..sometimes there are going to be risks going off stage...you can minimize the risk by going below their trajectory so that you can't get struck by their grapple....most samuses are not going to suddenly fastfall into grapple low since it doesn't sweetspot..though i think they can do that then only go part way up on the grapple fastfall and try to sweetspot their up b..but by then you could be on stage and have another chance..so it's definitely recommended to stay out of the way of the grapple sweetspot when going offstage..just stay a little below their height...

that said, definitely don't watch my vids for that..i remember getting hit by grapple twice like that and then having to risk getting edgeguarded once...

i seem to remember that marth that plays with plup was quite solid..and m2k is really good at edgeguarding in that matchup when i've watched him play friendlies..i don't know if there are any decent sets recorded though

I forget if SH Fair works then. I used to play with that stuff more but I've been focusing on Falco more lately. I'll be testing tons of Marth stuff and writing it down come fall semester when I'm playing with more randoms/people I'm teaching.

In my head, you can't get a SH Fair without being in the air some first, making the DI pretty easy to adjust for. This is at 70% though. Some earlier percents you can get some nice mixups on tipper or Fairs and I used to play with them a lot/know them better.

FH is better to surprise them, while SH is better if they seem committed to DI'ing a certain way. That's my short answer.

Nair doesn't work at 70% on DI away iirc, but at 60 or 55ish it works really well I think.

I never take the tipper honestly lol. I like Fair'ing or Uair'ing lol.

OH YEAH, Uair is mad good because you can eventually get the weak hit and tipper that way, even if they DI away. That's a good mixup for Fair as well.

*hits self in the face* wow I need to start playing more seriously with Marth outside of the ditto/vs Sheik again.....


I haven't played vs Samus in quite a while with Marth but I liked runoff Fair and grabbing the edge to DJ Bair while invincible to help avoid being hit by grapple. I'd have to play it again to remember more tricks.


Skrach is the one that plays with Plup I assume. He's fairly solid.



I need to write some Marth stuff. Played that guy too much lately not to.

 

[VietGeek]

so peepee-san-chan

do you keep a secret archive of all your feats?

because i'm echoing knightpraetor

i'm hungry for some jiggs vids

if you know what i mean

srsly though

obv

 

[Dr Peepee]

so peepee-san-chan

do you keep a secret archive of all your feats?

because i'm echoing knightpraetor

i'm hungry for some jiggs vids

if you know what i mean

srsly though

obv

Oh no I have no secret videos if that's what you mean haha. I'd love to have some to show you guys honestly but Hbox never wanted to MM me after we played a friendly set and I beat him.

I can talk more about the matchup but I don't know what I've already said.

 

[Boat Mode]

I'd love to have some to show you guys honestly but Hbox never wanted to MM me after we played a friendly set and I beat him.

SMELLS LIKE A CALL OUT

/jk

maybe

I played a samus last night but his recovery is pretty meh so I got some nice ledgehop dairs on his upb. Idk mang. Samus is WEIRD.

PP are you goin to FC?

PP go to FC

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

You guys played a free money match and not a friendly.

 

[Dr Peepee]

okay whatever you call it lol I just wish it was recorded for me and the marths =(


dashing and uptilting are really cool with Marth because of how he leans. This allows him to dodge attacks so he can counterattack when he ordinarily couldn't.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Went mostly marth again this tournament. Got 3rd seed in my pool (lost to trail and gibby; beat black panther and others). Got 5th in bracket (beat Orly, lost to The Good Doctor, beat Mundugu, beat John! and lost to AnDaLe). Used Fox against Sheiks and ICs, Marth for everything else.

I am starting to gain more confidence with my marth. I may have more more confidence with him than my fox. My movement and punish games have suddenly gotten much better overall, though I feel somewhat in a rut with fox. Its much harder for me to maintain damage output relative to my opponent with fox than my other characters. I think I would have to be much more patient with fox than I currently am.

 

[Dr Peepee]

No one has to be "much more" patient than half a second I usually find in smash, unless it's whatever armada and hbox end up doing to each other at majors or something along those lines.

Waiting once in a while for a small fraction of time isn't hard to do at all and tends to make those fast characters a lot harder to read.

Marth can handle Sheik by abusing his mobility advantage and juggle traps on Sheik in the air if that helps you transitioning to more Marth. Just don't get hasty ever.

 

[S l o X]

so close to beating th0rn!

i gotta work on options oos and about working around lasers.

 

[Sweet™]

so close to beating th0rn!

i gotta work on options oos and about working around lasers.

Although there's probably 100 better options, I find short hop bair OoS against spacies to be good.
Don't take my word for it though.
And learn to powershield. Easiest way to probably learn is to get a turbo controller, and give it to a human Falco. Have the B button held down, and just practice the powershield timings.

But yeah. Like I said, I'm no connoisseur at smash. PeePee probably has better advice. lol.

 

[Dr Peepee]

idk he just seems frustrated and is venting atm but I'll give advice if he wants some =p

 

[S l o X]

would appreciate it but i can wait until the upload happens.

 

[knightpraetor]

to expand on what pp said, i think it's dangerous to wait more than half a second cause then the opponent knows you are waiting for something...assuming the matchup is actually based around camping then maybe it wouldn't be as much of a problem, but in general, while i think stand still is one of the most powerful tools in marth's arsenal, you only need half a second to see whether the opponent responded, if not, you know next time you can move in and go immediately...and if they haven't moved while you are standing still, it's likely that you need something to bait movement from them.

Longer waits also give them more time to think, so while waits are good, you should try to minimize the length of time you wait

 

[Bones0]

Wow, mind blown. I've always thought of standing still as a lack of action, but thinking of it as an action in itself seems like it would make way more sense and be more helpful.