Important Carefully Ask PPMD about the Tiara Guy

[Zoler]

You play on iCCup knightpraetor? We have to play sometime!

 

[Dr Peepee]

What do you guys think about boost-grabbing? It seems really janky/gimmicky but so far it's been really succesful when I use it sparingly... the range is just stupid, and it tends to catch people off guard

Boost grab is only good with Sheik

That's what I thought.

i am so freaking sick of europe and americans and their stupid dumb armada peepee mango johning....
why is it that smash players are so much dumber than other esports....how hard is it to freaking understand....A PLAYER IS ONLY AS GOOD AS THEY PLAY AT THEIR WORST!!!!!

it pisses me off so much reading the dumb johns about how pp didn't play well in winner's finals or that armada was sloppy in grand finals...those kinds of lame excuses have no place in competitive play...at most they should only come out to your friends when explaining that you felt off during a set that you played...it certainly doesn't need to be broadcast to the world or speculated about by outsiders....

and the logic behind it is so freaking flawed....you can't properly average out skill level from every match a player has in tourney....so obviously they are going to base it off of the minimum or maximum...

But what kind of freaking moron thinks that you should base how good top players are based on how they are playing at their best.....does anyone bother to think where that leads...

in starcraft brood war i have played over 2000 games now. And in one game that I once had a replay for, i literally played at around B level when my skill level is only C-..and at that time was only D+....so because I have one game where I miraculously played like a pro does that mean people should start lauding me as a top player that just happens to drop sets all the time? wth is wrong with people...how well you could have done has no relevance whatsoever in a competive discussion..the only important thing is how well you did....if you can't be consistent you don't deserve to be at the top and have no excuse when you lose...

but in smash for some reason all the players whine and give excuses...and no it's not like that in other esports... in korea people would be like.....flash made a lot of mistakes..but they wouldn't go around saying...oh flash should have won he was just off that day..that minimizes the accomplishment of the competition and is freaking rude to begin with.....uggh...i'm so sick of smashboards..if it were not for the inspiration i get every month or two by scouring the boards and finding one useful post i would never come here...

and if a top player whined like that publicly in korea..first of all his PR would be shot and everyone would lose interest in him..but in addition to that all his fans would publicly mock him for being a scrub and tell him to learn to play....which is how people should respond when top players whine

show me where I have whined recently

I'll paypal you $20 at least

yeah, unfortunately it's true..in my opinion a large part of the problem is a lot of marth's matchups require completely different styles or spacing..and even the edgeguarding is different...we have a lot of marths that are decent in a couple matchups...but most suck horrendously at a couple matchups...and in general we're also pretty lacking compared to top level play...

also, after seeing ice's performance..i have a feeling that a lot of us build bad habits by using fallback techniques that we know are suboptimal when we feel like what we are doing isn't working..rather than realizing that we need to perfect our fundamentals so that we aren't forced to resort to suboptimal fallback techniques and panic attacks that don't actually have a good success rate on top level players

btw, i know i probably gave ice the hardest time for his performance..but i've also been his fan from before europe was really that popular here..i'm also beat's fan (watched some marth dittos of him and he ended up being competent), and dart and tai's (though i disagree strongly with tai's assertion that he was good at vs sheik...and the next two sets he played against sheik kind of backed me up..but that matchup sucks anyway)

honestly for me to like your play you just have to demonstrate that you are either better than me or at least better than me at some aspect or matchup and i'll watch..i even watch the sets of some players i think are worse than me...though lately what i watch the most is shroomed marth...it's interesting in that it has a lot of flaws that people who have been playing marth a long time don't have but then has counteracting strong points that come from his strong base skills..as well as unique choices that only someone new to the character would do..this allows me to look at new options and consider new things more..so i've been finding that his matches are actually opening my eyes the most lately because it adds so many things to my "things to test out in matches" list.

anyway i strongly want to recommend that you never allow yourself to use subpar options that you know are subpar even if you know that doing so would grant you a win in a friendly against someone that you may lose to if you play standard (especially when warming up)..i know i suffer from doing that a lot when warming up cause i hate losing to players worse than me cause they then hold their friendly win over me forever.. so i too could end up doing dumb stuff in tourney like ice cause of those habits...if you know something is not optimal, don't rely on it..get 4 stocked instead with things that you need to get better at....lose those stupid friendlies...

but yeah, watching ice panic and use that reminded me of 2 weeks back when someone played falco vs me who was worse than me...and i hate playing vs falco since i'm already pretty good at it...so i just didn't feel like playing so i just relied on similar stuff to what Ice did...doesn't work on good players..but wrecked them of course

Okay so Ice panicked....don't extrapolate so hard.

Marth is incredibly useable. (so close to nearly)Everyone sucks against solid Marth play and that's one of the main things I discovered over the course of my trip.

Ice plays against the character, he doesn't adjust to player styles. He also heavily relies on 103103810 gimmicks, and once you understand how he plays he can be easy to trick into doing different things. I knew all this since I had used falco vs him in friendlies for and always won more, but I saved using falco for this tournament, and used it to throw him off.
I did screw up a lot at times with Falco since I barely ever use him anymore, so I just focused on outsmarting Ice, which in turn, made the match look scrubbish at times.

Ice needs to learn how to adjust to different playstyles, and how to combo people with good DI and how to convert into these combos from the neutral game (this is his main differences from M2K's marth)
Ice has a lot of potential, but he needs to man up and stop playing Sheik in every single matchup he doesn't understand and just play Marth for real if he wants to be a marth main. He should honestly have lost to Zgetto too.



Oh, and PP's marth is ****. It actually has a playstyle that is constructed to consistently **** at top level play, instead of randomly ****** low level like M2K/Ice/almost every marth main there is.

Fair analyses all around.

You haven't seen my Marth vs Falco though. I'm less consistent because I never play that matchup and don't really know what to do because no one fights me like me lol.

though lately i've been focusing more on learning ICs...honestly I no longer think fox is the 2nd best secondary for marth...now i think it's falco (cause falco is god tier), ICs (because they have the best matchup in the game on sheik), then fox.

but i guess it depends on whether you actually intend to use fox for other matchups....personally i think marth vs falcon is doable..and everything else is definitely not worth switching for.

ICs just for Sheik? That character struggles so much vs Fox and maybe Falcon and Peach....seems like you lose more than you gain with that CP. Maybe to help you on certain stages or when it's your CP then sure it can be amazing though. Just don't get too into it.

My Marth was always very simple...

Love Cactuar.

Does anyone notice if daily practice does anything for you at all? If I don't play for a week... yeah, I will see myself screwing up a ton of stuff. But after like 30-60 minutes of messing around, I am back on top of my gameplay. If I keep playing for about 5 hours or more, I'll notice I'm getting fatigued and I start screwing things up again.

I guess it depends how your practice. If you only need that warm-up, then like 30 minutes of CPU play is probably all you need to stay on top of gameplay if you haven't played for awhile. If you want to improve you need more routine practice, but I found that everyday stuff against people really messes up with my mentality. Taking that week long break and getting back into smash again, I feel great and nothing really bothers me at all when playing. I feel a bit more creative and notice things and get less narrow minded when playing someone.

Omg so much I can say about this! I should make a post on practice sometime.

Daily practice is super important if you wanna be good, especially if you aren't playing every day. You just need to make your practice useful.

Practice hard things that require lots of focus and tech early like multishines or pivots or something. Practice easier things like DD mixups or edgecancels when you're tired.

lol,that is definitely not true of me. i could never in my dreams play for even 6 hrs straight against people that are at or above my skill level without some degradation due to being tired

luckily, you spend a significant amount of your time at tourney playing people worse than you, which is your time to turn on braindead play mode and at most focus on a few combos here and there.

I don't know how most people are, but I generally give 1-2 rounds to see if the opponent is pretty good and I can learn something while focusing. If within that time, I'm not significantly impressed, I turn on autopilot. However, if I start losing 3-4 friendlies in a row again then I assume that they just weren't warmed up and start trying for real.

PP is also relatively the same based on my 2-3 hrs watching him at the last smashfest in NC. He just plays relatively halfheartedly..but if he notices he is only 2 stocking you instead of 3 stocking you, he suddenly picks up his game and focuses for like 30 seconds, gets a kill, then goes back on autopilot.

also, for me personally, not having daily practice has little effect on me if I don't play for 3-4 days. Maybe a 5-10% effect on me if I don't play for a week, and then if I don't play for 2 weeks, then the first day back to playing I am roughly 70% skill level for about 5 hrs because my movements are sloppy and sluggish.

i can avoid this 5 hrs of low skill by putting in 1 hr against a level 1 comp though and practicing tech skill.

NC also doesn't push me very much.....they'd all get emo if I just ***** them a lot like I used to anyway <.<

I played Mango for several hours straight at Impulse and got fatigued before him. Fatigue is likely coming from biological places like glucose levels and sleep levels, smash levels like how much you have to focus on tech(how much you practice), and maybe other sorta-smash things like how much you think in-game(about habits or what your personal smash thoughts are). Keeping yourself motivated and on top of those factors can give you the best results in terms of fatigue.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

It's not you doing the whining, PP. There's a horde of people out there johning for you when they shouldn't be.

Smooth Criminal

 

[Construct]

Damn, PP comes back and he doesn't drop a beat responding to all the posts. Great show over in Europe, welcome back. You'll get him next time.

 

[Boat Mode]

PP, how much would you suggest practicing if I only get to play the same person on avg. once per week?

I try to do an hour a day but there isn't really any "hard" Marth tech stuff.

 

[Varist]

PP, how much would you suggest practicing if I only get to play the same person on avg. once per week?

I try to do an hour a day but there isn't really any "hard" Marth tech stuff.

exercise your mind when you can play that person. do like mango does and turn everything into "little battles". learn how that person will respond to simple things. like try standing in front of his shield at tipper distance, WATCH and REMEMBER what he does. autocancel nair then utilt, see if he tries to shield grab you, he'll get hit, if he stays in shield, next time autocancel nair grab. see if he adapts and how frequently you have to mix stuff like that up or whatever.

notice his get ups from the ledges, bla bla. you're probably just playing him on autopilot. really use your brain. and it's a common symptom when you have one person to practice against and you play for 2+ hours to switch characters and do fun battles. don't do that, stay marth. even if you just do the same match up over and over again you're getting **** at that match up. you can even find out what stuff beats what if it's ditto or whatever.

you should be able to 4 stock your friend after like 3 sessions, because your friend probably sucks. just please don't go on autopilot.

 

[Dr Peepee]

PP, how much would you suggest practicing if I only get to play the same person on avg. once per week?

I try to do an hour a day but there isn't really any "hard" Marth tech stuff.

Well that once per week thing doesn't matter because you should be training in different ways so you don't build up a set routine for anything.

And the amount of time varies depending on what you wanna practice and how much you know to practice.

You don't wanna practice tech with Marth, you wanna practice ways to DD and WD to get appropriate spacing and ways to wall/zone people that supplements your movement game so you can and are comfortable attacking from all points in your movement and moving from many points in your attack.

example: Being able to Fair at the beginning and end of a dash could make the difference between you seeming extremely predictable and getting that solid mixup you need in order to continue playing at a high level vs a tough opponent.

Let me know if that is not enough explanation. I plan on making a post about practicing in my Falco thread next but if you want a Marth version I can set it up here and tweak it some.

Specific questions are always fine though. =)

 

[Battlecow]

It's not you doing the whining, PP. There's a horde of people out there johning for you when they shouldn't be.

Smooth Criminal

Example? No one or almost no one has really johned for PP since Gen 2

Y'all have a lot of hate and nowhere to put it lol

 

[knightpraetor]

also, pp the main problem was not you but that stuff people ask you in person ends up going all over the threads because people want to john for you. some people can't be trusted with personal feelings obviously.

as for ICs, my feeling is that IC vs peach may be bad...but most secondary peaches don't seem good enough at it to matter. Also I am picking up ICs for my counterpick. I'm getting better at marth vs sheik too. I just like having free wins on my counterpick if they don't have at least two characters. If they are smart they will just switch off sheik on my counterpicks, but I'm content with that since it makes come backs easier in sets. It also means that in a best of 3 I only need one win with marth vs sheik as opposed to 2, and 2 wins in a best of 5.

fox's matchup vs sheik doesn't seem nearly as free as ICs. I suppose it has the advantage that I could go all fox for the set..but then I still need to know all the other matchups for if they switch off sheik. I'm content just going mostly marth and not having to win too many rounds vs sheik

is marth vs sheik super easy in PAL? i was thinking with sheik's inferior throw the matchup might shift in marth's favor..i could live without my spike

also pp, did your marth get recorded any over there?

 

[Smooth Criminal]

Well, honestly, my basis for saying that does stem mostly Genesis 2. I don't know anything about Smashers' Reunion (other than some rumblings that certain players were sick). Still doesn't take away from the fact that it happened, or that it does happen in this community more often than not.

It's not hate, Battlecow. It's just an observation that I happened to agree with.

Smooth Criminal

 

[knightpraetor]

just read the smasher's reunion thread..or the genesis 2 thread or any other international thread. People john when their favorite player loses. it's reality.

PP/Armada/Mango are always playing bad that day (just that day...and the next time..and the next time)

also i don't see the smasher's reunion thread that pissed me off to begin with. Ah I don't remember the thread title. The only one I see now is the shoutouts thread, but the one I was reading was more results discussion. Also it got locked yesterday. Do closed threads disappear over time?

 

[Dr Peepee]

also, pp the main problem was not you but that stuff people ask you in person ends up going all over the threads because people want to john for you. some people can't be trusted with personal feelings obviously.

as for ICs, my feeling is that IC vs peach may be bad...but most secondary peaches don't seem good enough at it to matter. Also I am picking up ICs for my counterpick. I'm getting better at marth vs sheik too. I just like having free wins on my counterpick if they don't have at least two characters. If they are smart they will just switch off sheik on my counterpicks, but I'm content with that since it makes come backs easier in sets. It also means that in a best of 3 I only need one win with marth vs sheik as opposed to 2, and 2 wins in a best of 5.

fox's matchup vs sheik doesn't seem nearly as free as ICs. I suppose it has the advantage that I could go all fox for the set..but then I still need to know all the other matchups for if they switch off sheik. I'm content just going mostly marth and not having to win too many rounds vs sheik

is marth vs sheik super easy in PAL? i was thinking with sheik's inferior throw the matchup might shift in marth's favor..i could live without my spike

also pp, did your marth get recorded any over there?

Your ICs logic is sound, but good luck learning that weird character lol. Practice ya wobbles.

Marth vs Sheik is still not super easy lol. The weaker Uair lets her combo into Fair FOREVER UGH. Ftilt and CC are still dumb. The punish game from a grab is just less awful. You get tech chased instead of hit outright which can be worse if the Sheik is really on lol.

Not having the spike really hurts when you could get an early kill but instead do more Fairs or something lmao.

My Marth got sniper camera recorded when I played Ice in Marth vs Sheik friendlies for a long time....I think I also got recorded vs Over's Sheik as Marth.

No idea who recorded it though.

 

[Bones0]

Forget dairs. We should all be using up-Beeeeeeeeeeeeeeee.

Why do you love Marth vs. Sheik so much? lol

 

[knightpraetor]

ok marth boards..if you find those videos of PP's marth post them here.

also, zoler. I'm only C- what rank are you? i play zvt zvp ..and I went pvz (around C- level), but i recently switched to tvz and my tvz seems to be just D+ recently.

back when I tvz instead of pvz my tvz was stronger than the rest of my matchups..but not playing terran for 8 months has hurt it seems. However, in the current metagame tvz is in terran favor on large maps (also currently common) due to mech switch being broken...I keep watching A level zvt and watching players drop games after being 20-30% up after the terran turtles and mech switches. Even the progamer zergs are having the same problem. To top it off back when i played tvz I was like 500 points higher in that matchup than in the rest, so I figure why not just go back to playing it.

but i can't play till fall when I get back to america. right now iccup lags from korea a bit. I prefer just playing the korean people on fish

also PP, YOU ARE WRONG!!!

MY LOGIC IS NOT SOUND..

HOW THE HECK DOES IT MAKE SENSE THAT I NEED TO WIN 2 TIMES MARTH VS SHEIK IN A BEST OF 5?? I only have to win once...get owned PP..fooled by my weak logic

amazing how satisfying it is telling PP off for once^_^

 

[Dr Peepee]

Forget dairs. We should all be using up-Beeeeeeeeeeeeeeee.

Why do you love Marth vs. Sheik so much? lol

I like playing the hard matchup. Winning it is more satisfying lol. Also I'd have rather Marth ditto'd tbh(LOVE THAT MATCHUP) but Ice wouldn't play it with me. =(

Up-B isn't even close to swag.

ok marth boards..if you find those videos of PP's marth post them here.

also, zoler. I'm only C- what rank are you? i play zvt zvp ..and I went pvz (around C- level), but i recently switched to tvz and my tvz seems to be just D+ recently.

back when I tvz instead of pvz my tvz was stronger than the rest of my matchups..but not playing terran for 8 months has hurt it seems. However, in the current metagame tvz is in terran favor on large maps (also currently common) due to mech switch being broken...I keep watching A level zvt and watching players drop games after being 20-30% up after the terran turtles and mech switches. Even the progamer zergs are having the same problem. To top it off back when i played tvz I was like 500 points higher in that matchup than in the rest, so I figure why not just go back to playing it.

but i can't play till fall when I get back to america. right now iccup lags from korea a bit. I prefer just playing the korean people on fish

also PP, YOU ARE WRONG!!!

MY LOGIC IS NOT SOUND..

HOW THE HECK DOES IT MAKE SENSE THAT I NEED TO WIN 2 TIMES MARTH VS SHEIK IN A BEST OF 5?? I only have to win once...get owned PP..fooled by my weak logic

amazing how satisfying it is telling PP off for once^_^

=)

 

[Zoler]

ok marth boards..if you find those videos of PP's marth post them here.

also, zoler. I'm only C- what rank are you? i play zvt zvp ..and I went pvz (around C- level), but i recently switched to tvz and my tvz seems to be just D+ recently.

back when I tvz instead of pvz my tvz was stronger than the rest of my matchups..but not playing terran for 8 months has hurt it seems. However, in the current metagame tvz is in terran favor on large maps (also currently common) due to mech switch being broken...I keep watching A level zvt and watching players drop games after being 20-30% up after the terran turtles and mech switches. Even the progamer zergs are having the same problem. To top it off back when i played tvz I was like 500 points higher in that matchup than in the rest, so I figure why not just go back to playing it.

but i can't play till fall when I get back to america. right now iccup lags from korea a bit. I prefer just playing the korean people on fish

also PP, YOU ARE WRONG!!!

MY LOGIC IS NOT SOUND..

HOW THE HECK DOES IT MAKE SENSE THAT I NEED TO WIN 2 TIMES MARTH VS SHEIK IN A BEST OF 5?? I only have to win once...get owned PP..fooled by my weak logic

amazing how satisfying it is telling PP off for once^_^

I used to be B rank, but this was 2 years ago so nowadays I'm probably not better than C-.

 

[knightpraetor]

oh gosh..**** inbound...well i have like 1 month to get up to a level where i can take some retired B rank player....in one month i might reach.. C rank?

 

[Varist]

what the hell bro 7 years if you're not pp mango level by now what the **** are you doing

what the hell do you plan to do

 

[knightpraetor]

lol, i don't really count the time before I met mahone. More like 3 years of playing melee off and on. Join dates don't mean much. I joined back when I was learning smash 64. I got pretty good at that. Then after a couple years started melee a bit more...played my first good players probably in 2007 or so.

getting good requires decent practice partners...the first 2 years of me playing melee was just me ****** my friends, and then one of them got a little better than me, but I didn't see him enough to actually play much

Also years don't matter. Time does. My time clocked in melee is actually less than my time clocked in starcraft, and i've only been playing starcraft 1.5 years. I'm curious how many hours zoler has clocked in starcraft. While ranks are probably half a rank higher now than before due to the deflux of players...regardless B- is no small feat. Just how many hours did he freaking play.

 

[Zoler]

lol, i don't really count the time before I met mahone. More like 3 years of playing melee off and on. Join dates don't mean much. I joined back when I was learning smash 64. I got pretty good at that. Then after a couple years started melee a bit more...played my first good players probably in 2007 or so.

getting good requires decent practice partners...the first 2 years of me playing melee was just me ****** my friends, and then one of them got a little better than me, but I didn't see him enough to actually play much

Also years don't matter. Time does. My time clocked in melee is actually less than my time clocked in starcraft, and i've only been playing starcraft 1.5 years. I'm curious how many hours zoler has clocked in starcraft. While ranks are probably half a rank higher now than before due to the deflux of players...regardless B- is no small feat. Just how many hours did he freaking play.

I played SCBW actively from between late 2007 and mid 2009, while I played melee between late 2009 and now, and I'm pretty sure I played lots of more SCBW haha.

I was never really into ladering either, my accounts were mostly like 70 games played, mostly played practice games vs Naugrim, Morrow, Sortof, you know the swedish community I guess. Beat most of them so most considered me around B+/A-. But yea highest rank achieved was B.

I think I played maybe 20'000 games something? Not sure. Too bad my old Starcraft folder is gone, was fun with like 100'000 replays. :D

 

[knightpraetor]

that equates out to almost 5000 hrs. Everyone take note. Spend about 5000 hrs on melee in 2 and a half years and you will probably get pretty good.

it's not like that's much of your life..that's only 1/3 of the day. with 8 hrs of sleep, you still have 8 hrs for a job.

as for eating, just eat while going over replays.

 

[AceDudeyeah]

I feel like everytime this one dude's fox forward throws me over the edge, even at early percents, I eat a shinespike.
My side-b stall or DJ fair eats a full-hop shine from above
My DJ to grab the edge eats a dropzone shine.
My drop-down to landing or sweetspot up-B eats a ledgedrop shine.
WTF
Am I missing any other options?

Also, I have discovered that short-hop neutral B works against Falco's low ledgehop double laser, hits at a better angle than fair.

 

[Zoler]

that equates out to almost 5000 hrs. Everyone take note. Spend about 5000 hrs on melee in 2 and a half years and you will probably get pretty good.

it's not like that's much of your life..that's only 1/3 of the day. with 8 hrs of sleep, you still have 8 hrs for a job.

as for eating, just eat while going over replays.

It really sucks how you have to meet up IRL to play smash than how easy it is to practice any online game.

 

[Sweet™]

So uh.

Anyone have a gif of Marth's dair hitbox?

 

[ShroudedOne]

Total: 59
Hit: 6-9
Auto cancel: <5 48>
Landlag: 32
Lcanceled: 16

In the future: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=285324 There are threads like these in most, if not all, of the character boards.

 

[Boat Mode]

Frame data thread

goddamn ninjad

 

[Varist]

too fast, all that **** is too ****ing fast to be super duper useful

 

[Mahone]

http://gif-explode.com/

 

[Varist]

thx mahone

 

[Sweet™]

Okay, now which 'bubble(s)' are the ones that cause the spike, as opposed to whiffing and hitting someone to the side.
I'm assuming the one by the tip?

 

[Strong Badam]

Yes, the tipper spike hitbox would be located at the tip of the sword.

 

[Sweet™]

Sorry that I am not a melee God such as yourself.

 

[Cactuar]

YOU ARE NOT FORGIVEN!

lowercaseletters

 

[AceDudeyeah]

Bumping my fox's-forward to shine post.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

YOU WILL NOT SURVIVE!

lowercaseletters

Fixed.

Smooth Criminal

 

[knightpraetor]

i know it's rare for me to make a useful post. but everyone really should watch this set.. it's quite good and informative..this is textbook marth vs falcon..usually lately even when the marth wins i feel like they are doing suboptimal stuff and the falcon should be ****** them..but here the marth really played well..discounting the first life where he played like crap and was obviously thinking about his gf or what he had for lunch..but yeah, textbook..study and learn

IB vs juggleguy
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HA65f8imfCg&feature=relmfu

 

[KirbyKaze]

Girlfriend johns are usually legit with I.B.

 

[knightpraetor]

dang..i knew this guy was good..but man..watching his videos from apex now 2012 now and man...learned several new combos...textbook review on edgeguarding fox...his set vs jman was quite good.

scary

 

[Bones0]

I've been an IB fanboy since the Canadia combo video.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

I've been a fan of Canada since forever.

Smooth Criminal