Important Carefully Ask PPMD about the Tiara Guy

[Dr Peepee]

Fox isn't too bad to lock down dude. You just have to get stage first which I guess is harder but most Foxes jump at you anyway so it's usually not a big deal. If they like waiting then you should like that Dtilt move you said is the truth.

And I usually can't hit crouching Jiggz with my lasers WTF

/puts that on the list

 

[Bones0]

Yeah PP, you got hit by dash attack at least a few times vs. M2K because you always laser pretty high. Use them low lasers for shield pokes/to prevent standing PS. I only high laser when I think he'll try to aerial over the laser, and even then I prefer to just space myself so that if he does jump over the laser, I can punish him for leaving the ground. You tend to want to laser either right on top of them so you can shine or far enough away that your out of range of his fair OoS, so it quickly covers a lot of his options without putting you in any danger or giving up any substantial space.

 

[AustinRC]

Sveet realizes the power of marth. Come closer my child, I will reach deep inside and grab hold of your essence. I shall unlock your hidden potential!

 

[Bones0]

Come closer my child, I will reach deep inside and grab hold of your

O_O

essence.

Oh ...

 

[Divinokage]

I've gone into the hyperbolic time chamber and emerged a marth player. Things I've discovered since...

• Marth ***** falcon

Wow.. there, that's a bold statement, I think it's the other way around. Falcon's combos on Marth are ridiculous and also consistent. It's also one of my best match-ups with Falcon along with Ganon, I can do it with both really well which means it's at least part of the proof that the matchup is minimum even and I'm sure even Hax/S2j does not have a problem with the matchup also.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Well falcon is a lottttt easier to deal with than fox/falco in every way. I'm fine if falcon players think its a good matchup too.

 

[Divinokage]

Falco is debatable actually, you said it yourself, he's a cooked bird once you start doing chain throws.. or juggle combos. Taj beat the best one in the world, so it goes to show if played right it's quite tough for Falco. That doesnt happen nearly as often vs Falcon on stage because of his weight. If you are fine that Falcon players think it's a good matchup then... MM!?

M2k deals with any Fox with Marth as well because of his execution and his brilliant traps, he is also a dead Fox if you do it right which you should be doing. One trap is all you need generally.

They are both close to even match-ups.. Falcon is close to an even match-up too which is why M2k does not risk Marth vs him, he takes Sheik because now that is a **** match-up for Falcon. Imo Falcon vs Marth it's the same difficulty as Fox/Falco if not harder.

 

[Bones0]

I agree with Kage. Marth can't abuse DD grab at all vs. Falcon because nair is so beast, and then once you get touched it's generally GG. He even has a simple edge guard by just LHing for invinc then reverse kneeing. Falcon seems to struggle mostly when you can keep him contained by throwing him to the ground or off stage, but it's pretty hard to get him there in the first place because he's such a fatty.

 

[Divinokage]

Ya if Falcon gives himself away close to the ledge against a Marth then he's a ******* and will get gimped off-stage.. that's his bane already so there's definitely no need to do that. Getting techchased thrown close to the ledge sucks for sure, the options are limited.

 

[Niko45]

Yea I think Falcon beats Marth. The punish game is just so crazy strong and with neither having a significant neutral adv Falcon just seems to win faster imo. Fox is super free tho.

 

[knightpraetor]

most falcons lose to DI tricks that don't actually work because they are too used to playing people who only know how to DI away or in and get confused by neutral and down too much...that's my general thought..but if the falcons took the time to actually learn how to fight marth instead of considering him free I think they would do fine. that said marth takes space much better than falcon does in this matchup..so even if you're going to give falcon the edge in terms of damage output and combos it still seems rather significantly easier for marth to make falcon run out of stage spaceo n the platform stages than vice versa. marths just need to remember that falcon does not have a nair free card...our properly spaced nair cuts through his nair and properly spaced doesn't give falcon a guaranteed grab if he dodges it unless the falcon anticipates how far you will jump back with the nair. which means that if you hadn't jumped back and had jumped in place or forward you would have hit him and taken control. Most marths have trouble because they see the falcon dash forward feel threatened and then immediately nair at him instead of being patient about things. you can guard yourself against approaches while still making it hard for him to grab you and you can also hard predict him respecting your aerial game and just run in and grab him and start your tech chase game.

Anyway that's only one aspect of it but marth seems to have by far the better approach..also i agree with dashdance grab not being good against a character with a super long nair unless you're in CC percent, but if they're nairing that much maybe you should just not dashdance and punch through their nair with your far superior nair?

also dashdance shield grab attempt if they actually manage to come in with the nair instead of falling short is not too bad when they commit near the edge

i'm not really interested in the falcon talk though...far more curious whether FH fair is actually worth it vs peach..full hop rising moving forward fair has the best followups but it feels too risky...i think people are talking about full hop in place rising fair...assuming the peach did not actually come in it's much lower risk than SH rising fair....definitely need to play with it some next time i have a peach around.

 

[Niko45]

Falcon won't beat Marth with nair approaches, at least not blatant ones. It's all about abusing shield, spaced nair oos, and ultimately, getting grabs to do extremely efficient inescapable combos m2k style.

It also helps that he can hit confirm his entire moveset into knee but that is secondary since Marth is very good at playing safe and not getting hit randomly.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Falcon isn't that hard. CC grab or shield grab his nair. Once you have a grab dthrow/fthrow until 35% then uthrow. The flowchart is a little more complex than vs fox, but basically just hit him up. Abuse his ****ty tech roll and weight/fastfall to juggle him until you fsmash. Edgeguarding falcon is really simple, too, im not even gonna go in detail.

Watch some of dart's stuff vs falcon if you want to learn how to combo him real well.


edit- basically, i think the damage output is in marth's favor by a decent amount

 

[Bones0]

As far as shield grabbing Falcon goes, what do you have to worry about in terms of gentleman? Any details about how Falcons use it would help (both for when I'm playing vs. Falcon as well as playing as him since I rarely use it).

 

[Divinokage]

*Sigh* Im really sick of seeing shield-grab as a viable option lol.. Haven't people learned how to space yet or make traps to prevent it. Exactly, if you know Marth is going to go for a grab, Nair or Knee to gentleman prevents that... or you can just space yourself outside of the grab range or over-shoot. Marth's shield is also terrible, he can get shield stabbed easily and in this matchup it's not even a gimmick but more something you can consistently go for.

Shield grab is only viable when you call your opponent's failed technical... or when something is unsafe on shield for example the last hit of gentleman.

 

[knightpraetor]

yeah shield grab only works if you made him misspace...if he is actually good then he won't misspace unless you force a misspace..the weird thing is that you often catch even high level falcons with fast dash dance shield grabs near the edge..they want to hit you with something that sends you offstage so much that they end up getting grabbed stupidly and gimped...it shouldn't really be used to evaluate the matchup but i'm so used to it that i can't really judge the matchup very well...i would like to say that high level players would not do that, but the reality is that the higher level players have more confidence in their shield pressure and gentlemen's and so take the risk despite bearing near the ledge hoping that the marth is somehow bad at gimping or something...weird...top level players can sometimes be really cocky and unwilling to be patient..i honestly think it's mostly a falcon thing though..some primeval macho instinct that overwhelms their ability to think intelligently.

anyway fishing for grabs is only worth the risk of getting pinned in shield near the edge...but based on the way pp was describing the falcon side of the matchup the last time i talked i got the feeling that most marths spend the whole time against him trying to camp grab near the ledge...and pp spends the whole time wrecking them. it's good but doesn't work if the falcon is slow patient and wellspaced with his nairs...but that like violates every precept of the falcon way so it may be a while before marths have to worry

did i mention that most falcons don't respect the edge?

I swear they think they are fox or something..

 

[ShroudedOne]

Respecting the ledge is for the weak (at least, I never remember to).

 

[Strong Badam]

sheik is not a floaty

 

[Twinkles]

this whole spacing out marth's grab/making traps to prevent the grab intrigues me

come to the falcon boards and teach me your ways =0
but falcons dont respect people. they just beat the sht outta them

 

[Sliq]

ive 8-stocked sliq

Actually, if I recall correctly, you 36 stocked me in a best of 3, somehow time traveled, discovered the polio vaccine before Jonas Sulk, then willed an entire universe into existence using a magical unicorn that you also willed into existence.

Get your story right faggot.

But seriously, bragging about beating me badly is like bragging that you graduated highschool without getting pregnant. Not that impressive, especially if you are male.

Why can't my monthly name searches include more fun stuff. This stuff just makes me sad. =<

 

[Shroomed]

Isn't the only reason that Marth is high tier is because of HIS spacing abilities? I don't think it's that tough to make people mess up their spacing with Marth. Unless you're stationary (which isn't my style) =D

 

[AustinRC]

Lolololol sliq it's okay! People will always talk ****, just ignore the haters.

Oh and shroomed I'm beginning to think that marth is only as good as he is by juggling, spacing and his grab. It's pretty easy to get in on most Marth nowadays though. I really like your doc and would love to play you in the marth vs doc matchup! :D

 

[Niko45]

If people space things on your shield that you can't shield grab, you can probably fair oos it.

 

[Bob Money]

Falcon wins big stage, marth wins small stage.

 

[MasterShake]

If people space things on your shield that you can't shield grab, you can probably fair oos it.

Gonna disagree but I probably don't know what you mean.

 

[Bones0]

Why do all good Doc mains switch to Marth? >_>

He means if they space a move on your shield out of the range of your grab, you can probably just fair OoS instead (because it has more range than grab).

 

[Niko45]

Lots of moves can outspace shield grab, like sheik tilts or fox up smash for a couple of examples. However, they can't outspace fair, and as long as you respond asap they should still be in lag and therefore unable to cc it.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Is that true? I tend to avoid rising fair as a punish on grounded enemies because i'm afraid of the cc. Usually, I take far spacing on my shield as an opportunity to reposition myself on the stage or set up pressure.

@Kage's "Im really sick of seeing shield-grab as a viable option"

Shield grab is a viable option. The fact that so much of the metagame STILL revolves around not getting shield grabbed is proof of that. Spacing is a 2 player game, sometimes you just checkmate the opponent and they get shieldgrabbed; sometimes they mess up and you get a shield grab.

 

[Niko45]

Yes I notice lots of Marths tend to just try to escape and reset themselves when put in these spots instead of starting a monster combo directly with fair oos.

 

[S l o X]

Gonna try using fair oos more. I remember when I played Falco a lot more, Swift used fair oos and just random fairs when I would laser him and it would destroy me. Gotta test that out on falco players.

 

[knightpraetor]

fair out of shield is all right..just have the balls to jump right in their face and you can just do the aerial going down a lot if they are CCing and the like...running away is not that bad either..but if they know you are going to do it they catch your wd out of shield too often.

 

[Dr Peepee]

wow screw comps that auto log you out omfg


now im mad

.....


Falcon is faster than Marth but Marth can counter all of Falcon's approaches easily but Falcon can approach from the air/platforms but Marth can control aerial approaches really well


More later after I'm done fuming

æ

 

[Cactuar]

Cactus on zen:

Chill out pp.

 

[Dr Peepee]

.....

always right

<3

 

[.Chipmunk.]

Zen on cactus:

OW OWOWOWOWWO OMG OW

 

[Fregadero]

Is marth's jab useful for resets? I was playing a little today and realized its something I never do.

 

[Beat!]

It's pretty good vs spacies. Most setups for it are a bit gimmicky, though (but still work vs 99% of players 99% of the time).

 

[TheCrimsonBlur]

It's pretty good vs spacies. Most setups for it are a bit gimmicky, though (but still work vs 99% of players 99% of the time).

Why aren't you at smashers reunion?

smh

 

[crush]

It's pretty good vs spacies. Most setups for it are a bit gimmicky, though (but still work vs 99% of players 99% of the time).

maybe in europ


murcans can DI dude


@crimson

prbablly warcraft johns

 

[Niko45]

LoL tags?