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Important Carefully Ask PPMD about the Tiara Guy
- Thread starter Cactuar
- Start date
I like how I post solid advice and the person who asked the question doesn't even acknowledge the post. LOL! Thanks though Shrouded! ;D
Yeah I will hopefully be able to make it here after awhile, it's going to explain all my tricks and how to do them it will be sometime after august though if I even do it at all. I have to teach it to someone first.League is taking all the smashers
at least switch to DOTA or something
ARC, are you ever going to make that pivotting video you mentioned awhile ago?
Beat!
Smash Master
Yeah, that's the point. Or well, I have Falco as 4th, but that's neither here nor there. =p
Beat!
Smash Master
I simply don't think his matchup spread is good enough to put him anywhere near 2nd place.
... okay, that was a slight exaggeration, but I do think Marth and Fox are a solid bit above him.
Sheik is 3rd on my list, in case you're wondering.
... okay, that was a slight exaggeration, but I do think Marth and Fox are a solid bit above him.
Sheik is 3rd on my list, in case you're wondering.
Niko45
Smash Master
yea falco's pretty bad
Like I said before, I have a hard time understanding his placement due to the lack of Marth talent. I could see myself putting him anywhere between 3rd and 6th.
Falco on the otherhand I have a hard time placing below 2. IMO a lot of that depends on how well people can start powershielding.
Falco on the otherhand I have a hard time placing below 2. IMO a lot of that depends on how well people can start powershielding.
TheCrimsonBlur
Smash Master
I'm ignoring you until you teach us all how to pivot.
jk lol
Thanks for the advice but I already do all that and its still really hard. :/
Beat!
Smash Master
If being 4th best in the game and having no counter matchups equals being bad, then yeah, I guess. =p
Double ninja. This post was @Niko.
@Boat mode:
d/w, I'll start producing the results to support that matchup spread before you know it. I got this.
Double ninja. This post was @Niko.
@Boat mode:
d/w, I'll start producing the results to support that matchup spread before you know it. I got this.
I can only get that to combo offstage or when Peach doesn't DI out of surprise. Otherwise I don't believe it works.
they certainly do over-use it. it's a good surprise move but certainly not a staple with all that lag.
ye
throwing them offstage and they wanna grab the edge. great times to tipper dsmash actually
it would be nice but maybe not possible.
you know you can tech chase peach off of grabs for a long time right? that should mitigate some punishment issues at lower percents.
our game/comunity is small so we aren't representing the metagame in full. if you can't accept any other argument you should at least consider accept that one.
DD in or around dash attack range and attack her if she pulls a turnip. If she floats then you have to adjust your spacing for her Fair landing lag but don't go too far away as you may give her time to float back and pull a turnip. CC is your very good friend vs dash attack and jabs after peach lands from a FC so it's okay to be closer at lower %s if you crouch correctly.Can someone help me with the Peach neutral spacing game?
I understand the combos/punishment, even if I can't do it as well as I'd like, but my overall strategy in that matchup is lacking. First hits are major struggle for me.
Thanks
if peach has a turnip then counter it nair it or just get on a platform. if you have no platform then consider some fair wall shenanigans that can help wall peach out and additionally swat the turnip at the same time.
/makes new nest in marth boards
knightpraetor
Smash Champion
- Joined
- Oct 20, 2005
- Messages
- 2,321
well you're welcome to your opinion but theorycrafting character matchups to make up for a lack of actual players seems like a very poor way to judge matchups. Maybe if players were all equally skilled and also unbiased then it might make something remotely useful....
however, I've come to the realization that even Kirbykaze doesn't know everything about this game if you include the matchups that he doesn't play..there are insufficient top players for most of the characters, so when they vote on tier spread it is going to end up tainted by the bias of people who don't know jack about the matchups involved in what they are voting for.
There I said it..i'm tired of people who cannot even remotely play a character coming in and spouting utter nonsense about matchups when they don't even have the lowest level basic spacings down for their character..it would be like my going into the Ice climbers boards, posting my tier list and matchup data for ICs and then when fly amanita and wobbles explain the fundamentals of the IC vs falco matchup. I go in and say something stupid like, but if you get one grab you can zero to death falco.
the boards mostly consist of a bunch of people just spouting off meaningless opinions on matchups totally insubstantiated by evidence or even decent reasoning. This problem of noobs posting stupid stuff and arguing about matchups involving characters they don't main and can't play is exacerbated by the fact that most people do not want to post comprehensive matchup guides (this can be easily noted by the fact that the only guides close to detailed enough to actually be of any use in judging matchups would be yours and KK's). In general people are too lazy to post out guides or in some cases don't want to give up their strategies. I definitely fall into the latter and would never give a fully detailed matchup guide for some opponent to microanalyze to beat me in tourney.
I guess I should expand on this. Obviously if you are absolutely confident in your strategy then posting it, even though it will help your opponents is not a big problem. But the problem is I've lost track of the number of stupid things that I've heard from people that I then completely abuse against my opponent to gain an easy win in tourney. If there are gaps or lack of knowledge about certain options in my guide, it will be abused by people who realize that I don't have enough knowledge. And it is even worse when they are strictly wrong about something....it is always so satisfying to read an edgeguarding guide against marth and then realize that it leaves a huge gap against a certain recovery..and then to abuse that recovery and even better countergimp them. I have also lost count of hte number of countergimps that my opponents have later told their friends were "suicides". But yeah, I'm not pro, and I lack the confidence in most matchups to post a comprehensive guide and even if I had that confidence I'm not sure I would take the time. Props to KK for making such a sick guide btw.
Where was I....ah yeah, General matchup discussion is fine, as I often fill holes in my game merely by asking around for how to counter one aspect of a matchup. However, this has to be integrated into the entirety of my strategy to really grasp how the matchup is played in my eyes. But people do not go into some long detailed discussion when matchups are discussed in general. Instead they nitpick certain situations that they think are bad even though oftentimes if the matchup is played correctly instead of by someone who is just pulling out a tertiary for one day and doesn't know what he is doing...that situation may not even come up often enough to have real relevance on the matter.. In their eyes they no doubt think that they somehow countered my argument but in my eyes I'm just thinking of how I would 4 stock them with one hand. Another reason why I tend not to argue with pros...I am worried that there is a gap in my knowledge somewhere so that what i think is important to the matchup isn't important at all. I wouldn't mind arguing if it's in some depth, but the tier list discussion thread is filled with way too many minor details/situations out of context of the actual matchup.
80% of the posts are tiers without any discussion (what I did a while back) and 10% of the posts are tiers with an explanation of which matchups they think are bad for the characters...and only maybe 10% of posts have like the 3 sentence explanations of reasoning. Which regardless of how true the statements are, could never possibly describe a single matchup
anyways, the tl;dr version is just this. Top players are the only ones who have enough experience to properly judge tier list placement. However, using a voting system among top players for a tier list suffers even more from the lack of data, as well as a tendency to bias tier list placement based on how that character does against their main, usually from a lack of knowledge of all the matchups for the other characters.
however, I've come to the realization that even Kirbykaze doesn't know everything about this game if you include the matchups that he doesn't play..there are insufficient top players for most of the characters, so when they vote on tier spread it is going to end up tainted by the bias of people who don't know jack about the matchups involved in what they are voting for.
There I said it..i'm tired of people who cannot even remotely play a character coming in and spouting utter nonsense about matchups when they don't even have the lowest level basic spacings down for their character..it would be like my going into the Ice climbers boards, posting my tier list and matchup data for ICs and then when fly amanita and wobbles explain the fundamentals of the IC vs falco matchup. I go in and say something stupid like, but if you get one grab you can zero to death falco.
the boards mostly consist of a bunch of people just spouting off meaningless opinions on matchups totally insubstantiated by evidence or even decent reasoning. This problem of noobs posting stupid stuff and arguing about matchups involving characters they don't main and can't play is exacerbated by the fact that most people do not want to post comprehensive matchup guides (this can be easily noted by the fact that the only guides close to detailed enough to actually be of any use in judging matchups would be yours and KK's). In general people are too lazy to post out guides or in some cases don't want to give up their strategies. I definitely fall into the latter and would never give a fully detailed matchup guide for some opponent to microanalyze to beat me in tourney.
I guess I should expand on this. Obviously if you are absolutely confident in your strategy then posting it, even though it will help your opponents is not a big problem. But the problem is I've lost track of the number of stupid things that I've heard from people that I then completely abuse against my opponent to gain an easy win in tourney. If there are gaps or lack of knowledge about certain options in my guide, it will be abused by people who realize that I don't have enough knowledge. And it is even worse when they are strictly wrong about something....it is always so satisfying to read an edgeguarding guide against marth and then realize that it leaves a huge gap against a certain recovery..and then to abuse that recovery and even better countergimp them. I have also lost count of hte number of countergimps that my opponents have later told their friends were "suicides". But yeah, I'm not pro, and I lack the confidence in most matchups to post a comprehensive guide and even if I had that confidence I'm not sure I would take the time. Props to KK for making such a sick guide btw.
Where was I....ah yeah, General matchup discussion is fine, as I often fill holes in my game merely by asking around for how to counter one aspect of a matchup. However, this has to be integrated into the entirety of my strategy to really grasp how the matchup is played in my eyes. But people do not go into some long detailed discussion when matchups are discussed in general. Instead they nitpick certain situations that they think are bad even though oftentimes if the matchup is played correctly instead of by someone who is just pulling out a tertiary for one day and doesn't know what he is doing...that situation may not even come up often enough to have real relevance on the matter.. In their eyes they no doubt think that they somehow countered my argument but in my eyes I'm just thinking of how I would 4 stock them with one hand. Another reason why I tend not to argue with pros...I am worried that there is a gap in my knowledge somewhere so that what i think is important to the matchup isn't important at all. I wouldn't mind arguing if it's in some depth, but the tier list discussion thread is filled with way too many minor details/situations out of context of the actual matchup.
80% of the posts are tiers without any discussion (what I did a while back) and 10% of the posts are tiers with an explanation of which matchups they think are bad for the characters...and only maybe 10% of posts have like the 3 sentence explanations of reasoning. Which regardless of how true the statements are, could never possibly describe a single matchup
anyways, the tl;dr version is just this. Top players are the only ones who have enough experience to properly judge tier list placement. However, using a voting system among top players for a tier list suffers even more from the lack of data, as well as a tendency to bias tier list placement based on how that character does against their main, usually from a lack of knowledge of all the matchups for the other characters.
Divinokage
Smash Legend
That's why you have everyone post their thoughts about a match-up and then we can tell them if it's right or wrong... in this way there is no gap possible. Also everyone is entitled to their opinion, it's not right to judge them just because they know less about the game.
- Joined
- Mar 14, 2011
- Messages
- 5,493
KP, you're such a pessimist, but you're not wrong. I think that, past dividing characters into tiers, trying to give them a specific number on a list when there's no way you could know each and every matchup that is relevant to them, is really silly.
But you've got to admit, it's kind of fun.
But you've got to admit, it's kind of fun.
TheCrimsonBlur
Smash Master
KP I think even the top players have a large amount of uncertainty and doubt in these sort of things
Melee is a complex game
We're all just trying to do our best to figure it out.
Melee is a complex game
We're all just trying to do our best to figure it out.
TheCrimsonBlur
Smash Master
What do I do to keep her from pushing me back though? I have a hard time establishing stage control with my movement because dash attack is so scary. Feels like my normals always get beat/trade. I don't like shielding dash attacks because thats a 50/50 for a grab...and I can't jump (dash attack beats everything). My dash back isn't threatening at all, and when I dash forward I am going into the ****.
The most success I've had is with dtilt but that requires me to stand still and mobility is one of my only real advantages.
blegh
Beat!
Smash Master
Running dtilt is your friend.
Oh, and SH rising fair as well.
Oh, and SH rising fair as well.
Divinokage
Smash Legend
Also as a side note, M2k said to me that my Marth plays like him just a lot slower, lmao.
Niko45
Smash Master
I don't like empty dding against peach cause I don't feel its good to give up walling options for free and it gives her an opportunity to try to outspace you
in fact I don't like empty dding at all it basically sucks. stand/aerial in place, then single dash away pivot grab is all you need.
in fact I don't like empty dding at all it basically sucks. stand/aerial in place, then single dash away pivot grab is all you need.
.Chipmunk.
Smash Ace
Full jump rising fair*
crush
Smash Master
short hop rising rettreating fair -> single hit nair*
wtf is unbiased? everyone not having an opinion or basing the game on numbers? bias exists in all humans and I think that's great personally because then we get differing opinions(this is how arguments and new info is shared btw).
do we need perfect conditions to create a theoretical tier list? well we never used them before so why start now? besides, perfect conditions would vary for different people anyway so you'd run into problems there too. for example, I think bias is cool but I would want people to use a similar format when making matchup observations like how a character wins in categories vs another such as offense vs defense, momentum, speed, range, camping potential, etc. this is not to say my method is the best, but it is what I'd prefer if I could somehow control the way tier lists are made. what we do now is just let everyone use their own opinion and that honestly isn't the worst thing in the world.
why would we have to be masters of all characters to offer our opinions on tiers? that's basically impossible....
we can use our best judgment based on what we have seen and read from sources more credible than ourselves on those characters or matchups we do not play often though. there are ways to reduce the overall ignorance behind any tier decision so the variance in tier decisions isn't too strong.
ummm yeah smashboards has gotten harder on the eyes these days but you have to overlook the bad and focus on who is being productive and work with them. it's very easy to do and it'd probably make you a lot happier with your quest for smash knowledge =)
come to my dorm when I go to uncg bruh
CC dash attack I told you already lmao. Hit her first once in a while so she pops DA earlier later on and you get free shield grabs.
dash canceled dtilt is amazing for spacing. peach can't really challenge dtilt outright unless she sees it coming a mile away.
empty dd'ing is completely worthless.
dd'ing with a purpose and shifting your position frequently while taking stage and giving it up as you see fit is extremely effective against peach and most characters in general...especially peach though.
whyshort hop rising rettreating fair -> single hit nair*
Beat!
Smash Master
No, I think SH rising fair is better vs Peach. I think it's better than the FH version vs most characters. Going up high in the air doesn't end well a lot of the time.
Elyssa Xey Hexen
Broken!
- Joined
- Aug 6, 2008
- Messages
- 19,345
How is short hop fair better vs peach? It has risks when hitting shield because of her Nair. With a full hop, peach won't reach Marth before he has the chance to pull off something else: Fair or 2nd jump.
I do not see how being high in the air vs peach is bad unless she gets directly underneath you. You have Fair to space landings or platforms to retreat too once in the air.
I do not see how being high in the air vs peach is bad unless she gets directly underneath you. You have Fair to space landings or platforms to retreat too once in the air.
.Chipmunk.
Smash Ace
To expand on what Xeylode said, peach can get under short hop rising fair with a dash attack, and peach -loves- to use dash attack.
cactuar 2012-forever
<3
<3
OverLord
Smash Ace
It's pretty obvious that you are not supposed to SH Rising Fair in front of Peach blindly, so I don't see when Peach can DA under your Fair if you're doing it reacting to something she's doing.
Peach needs turnips in this MU to do ANYTHING, so just wait for her to try and pull one out and you can punish her.
If she has a turnip, she'll probably try a turnip>float>something in your face, you are supposed to Fair the turnip, and her face too, so that she has to re-arrange her spacing/approach.
If she's trying to approach with no turnips 'cause she's feeling threatened by you every time she tries to pull one out, then you out range her pretty badly, so you can stop her float approaches with Rising SH Fairs, and bait her DA if she's on the ground and punish accordingly.
If you do this stuff and can combo her appropriately, then you are most likely to win.
If someone links the MU guide here I will do my best to contribute to it =)
OverLord
Smash Ace
You just have to 4-stock Aldwyn in Norway Kevin, just do it for me, please.
Record it.
Record it.
LOOL
idk man we'll play and see what happens
I'll try to get a lot of my matches recorded =p
idk man we'll play and see what happens
I'll try to get a lot of my matches recorded =p
OverLord
Smash Ace
Fair enough.
Well its hard to say because we have a year old guide thats lacking a lot, and then a pretty comprehensive guide (covers all characters at least) thats 3 years old.
I couldn't find anything older than that, and I don't think it would be worth looking at anyway.
Well I meant the new one assuming it gets made hhaa
I'm fine working on the old one if everyone else is though
I'm fine working on the old one if everyone else is though
OH my bad lol
I don't really know who "everyone else" is but I can't say I really feel established or knowledgeable to start the new matchup thread. I'll add what I can but my current play is mid level at best.
Although I guess you can just edit in w/e so I guess that works
I don't really know who "everyone else" is but I can't say I really feel established or knowledgeable to start the new matchup thread. I'll add what I can but my current play is mid level at best.
Although I guess you can just edit in w/e so I guess that works
.Chipmunk.
Smash Ace
So I has question, and it's related to this video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jIz5biRFTMQ&t=15m47s
In case you missed it, m2k dashes away from th0rn right about the time he's shooting a laser and the laser passes harmlessly right over marth. Is this because the das h animation is lower than running animation coupled with the fact that it was a high laser? (tbh, I don't actually know the different laser heights that falco has all that well) Or was it just a normal laser?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jIz5biRFTMQ&t=15m47s
In case you missed it, m2k dashes away from th0rn right about the time he's shooting a laser and the laser passes harmlessly right over marth. Is this because the das h animation is lower than running animation coupled with the fact that it was a high laser? (tbh, I don't actually know the different laser heights that falco has all that well) Or was it just a normal laser?
Bones0
Smash Legend
You just answered your own question...
Elyssa Xey Hexen
Broken!
- Joined
- Aug 6, 2008
- Messages
- 19,345
That's just a high laser. Falco can get it low enough that it'll hit a crouching jiggs.
Fortress | Sveet
▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀
I've gone into the hyperbolic time chamber and emerged a marth player. Things I've discovered since...
More but i'll keep the juicy stuff to myself
- Marth ***** falcon
- Fox is hard to lock down
- Falco is a ***** until you hit him (already knew but w/e)
- Marth also ***** every floaty in the game besides sheik
- Dtilt is the truth
- Ftilt is pretty useful
- Execution is a must
- Fsmash sooner rather than later
- Don't get fancy, the simple stuff is very effective
More but i'll keep the juicy stuff to myself