Important Carefully Ask PPMD about the Tiara Guy

[KirbyKaze]

I guess you can **** at the matchup but still hate it? Though that doesnt seem plausible to me because if you hate something, your potential to be good at it is reduced by a lot.

Unknown hates Sheik and he beats all of them pretty violently.

 

[knightpraetor]

getting gimped at the edge for hours tends to do that to people

 

[KirbyKaze]

I never gimp Unknown

 

[Bones0]

Anyone wanna talk about bair?

...does anyone actually USE bair? >_>

 

[.Chipmunk.]

Anyone wanna talk about bair?

...does anyone actually USE bair? >_>

I just did a triple edge canceled bair from battlefields top platform on down. Granted, the last one was supposed to be a spike and I messed up on the c-stick, but it got the kill. Bair has more range than fair so it's good for certain setups and what nots but it has quite a bit of landing lag

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

I'm terrible at keeping up people juggled in the air when they get near the top blastzone. I always manage to miss space myself and they get back onstage.

So, if I cannot get Uair or Fair to combo into another move or set-up the foe low above platforms, I'll finish with Bair to at least swat them away from center stage. It has better knockback than shieldbreaker. I can actually space it properly unlike Nair with doesn't give me that 45 degree coverage above horizontal. I can aim for tipper spacing (unlike fair) to hit people horizontally rather than vertical.

Its also easier on reaction when someone DIs behind and to center stage to run towards center stage and full hop/2nd jump and Bair to hit them back towards the ledge.

 

[Dr Peepee]

I use Bair like Xeylode does, to finish juggles and set up edgeguards. My reasoning for doing so is I have to cover them coming in from one direction and not really being able to switch it up unlike coming from straight above can do.

I also Bair to catch platform campers sometimes. It starts low and ends high, which is pretty useful at times, especially when people are trying to avoid the higher part that would come from rising Fair first.

Also I'll occasionally do that low to the ground Bair that you only see the old Marths do....that Bair is SICK. I dunno how to explain it but it combos well and doesn't lag badly. Low Bair needs to happen more imo.

 

[Divinokage]

I use Bair like Xeylode does, to finish juggles and set up edgeguards. My reasoning for doing so is I have to cover them coming in from one direction and not really being able to switch it up unlike coming from straight above can do.

I also Bair to catch platform campers sometimes. It starts low and ends high, which is pretty useful at times, especially when people are trying to avoid the higher part that would come from rising Fair first.

Also I'll occasionally do that low to the ground Bair that you only see the old Marths do....that Bair is SICK. I dunno how to explain it but it combos well and doesn't lag badly. Low Bair needs to happen more imo.

Do you know what else starts low and ends high?

 

[Dr Peepee]

uppercuts?

idk throw me a bone here mr fortune cookie

 

[Fregadero]

Do you know what else starts low and ends high?

Me on the way home after work

 

[Divinokage]

Me on the way home after work

That depends what you have seen on the way home, or on the way to work.

 

[Bones0]

Dr. PP missing your reference is probably the most ironic thing I've ever seen.

 

[Niko45]

I use bair a lot.

 

[Roche_CL]

I dunno if Bair has higher priority, but when you are going to hit against another attack, it seems easier to hit them with Bair than Fair, its really hard to Fair a firefox (after it has charged up), but Bair-ing it is just easier. Maybe hitbox stay longer and its not about priority, dunno really.

 

[Niko45]

Bair is severely disjointed whereas fair is only very disjointed.

 

[Bones0]

^LOL Perfect response.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

The only thing that matters about marth's hitboxes is location, location, location.

 

[Bones0]

Sometimes I just think about Marth's hitboxes and wonder if he's actually insanely broken and everyone since Ken has just sucked with him.

 

[Niko45]

Unfortunately disjointedness isn't everything, otherwise G&W would do work.

 

[Bones0]

G&W could pretty easily be top 8, but we are all just too bad at abusing his disjointedness.

 

[knightpraetor]

hardest thing lately is deciding whether what m2k and most marths including me do of comboing for that extra 25% and forcing them offstage high is better than just taking 10% and a low bair to force them offstage with low recovery options...it's something i'm thinking about a lot lately.

 

[Niko45]

Ya I go for a bair whenever possible really. Forcing them off at lower percents is sometimes more awkward for them to deal with.

Bair is just really really good and I abuse it as much as I can. The fact that it hits basically directly above marth's head with the same knockback is really really good.

 

[OverLord]

What keeps G&W to be actually good is just his awful shield and his weight.

 

[Niko45]

its completely absurd how early he dies

combined with the bad shield its just a great recipe for getting run over

every play falco vs GnW? That's pretty fun

 

[knightpraetor]

anyone know when a rising bair into another fair starts/stops comboing on spacies in midstage due to platform interference?

 

[Dr Peepee]

hardest thing lately is deciding whether what m2k and most marths including me do of comboing for that extra 25% and forcing them offstage high is better than just taking 10% and a low bair to force them offstage with low recovery options...it's something i'm thinking about a lot lately.

why not do both? low bair means they gotta hold in, and holding in means ken combo down the road.

now, if you're just talking about them DI'ing both perfectly(somehow), then I'd say choose low option because that's easier to cover and Marth can tack on a combo into kill if the % is lower sometimes.

not always though! high option is cool sometimes because going out there with marth or staying out there is intimidating/powerful.

ignore the horrible structure and grammar I couldn't sleep because I'm hyped lol.

MIXUPS basically. do different stuff

 

[knightpraetor]

hmm, i guess i should talk more about setups..i would love it if i could use ken combo as a mixup...that should work if i'm facing out towards the ledge and just turn around into instant bair..but usually when i take bair i am taking it from underneath them..tipping fair or taking an upair tend to be the only options...

but even then if the player is watching they can react to turn arounds..the good thing is bair often combos on DI in....neutral DI too good but no one does that.

in a lot of those situations the first upair that led to this situation could have been...uggh i don't know the terminology to use for this but basically i could have odne the upair while rising and then on my fall di towards center stage so that i am behind them on the upair..but i still don't know if i could get far enough in that i could turn around slightly and then do the fair....anyway this situation comes up a lot for me...
i definitely think you're right though and that when facing offstage i should mix in turn around bair to keep them honest..though i often just nair instead...

also in my opinion it's not so much about mixing up whether to send them high or not..it's that at certain percentages some things are just strictly better...at mid high percents sending them off high gives you enough time to go out there and set up very easily....while at low percents they tend to have too many recovery options with you not having the right position after your aerials to follow up. and at super high percents sending them off low is of course better.

i'm overgeneralizing a little cause it depends on what move you finished your combo with (typically nair when i'm going for a damage dealing combo).

anyway i wish that i had a better idea of mixups that i could use involving bair...i think maybe i need to just learn to pivot rising FJ fair...too hard though..but if i could do this marth might transform into the best comboing machine in the game...

 

[Bones0]

I think this bair -> dash attack Ice does could be a nifty mixup out of uthrow or utilt or something. Especially if you just want to get them by the ledge.

 

[TheCrimsonBlur]

I really like empty hops underneath platforms threatening a hitbox->DJ->waveland->action

And yeah low bair is my ****. On-stage, it leads to easy techchase because they don't go very far (at low %s you can do tipper on missed techs straight up. Its very hard to tech because of how fast it is. Higher %s dash attack). If you push them offstage with a low bair they're as good as dead.

Bair in general is an awesome move. The fact that its like Marths 8th best move or whatever just shows how broken he is lol

 

[Bones0]

OMG that reminds me. If you have someone trapped near the ledge when they miss a tech, you can face towards the center. If they roll in you can dair/uair/grab, but what they usually do is get up in place/roll away because it looks like you can't hit them, and then you tip them with a bair and they get sent off at a low angle. It seems a bit better than fsmashing if they are just DIing high and recovering easily. It's also useful for characters that you may not get solid grab punishes on.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

Is Fthrow -> dash attack legit follow-up on DI away on certain characters such as peach? In armada vs M2K I recall seeing this a ton in some early sets. Even if you cannot react too it, but have to predict, a 50/50 on a move seems pretty good. Fthrow -> dash attack DI away, while fthrow -> fair covers most any other DI.

 

[Metal Reeper]

Is Fthrow -> dash attack legit follow-up on DI away on certain characters such as peach? In armada vs M2K I recall seeing this a ton in some early sets. Even if you cannot react too it, but have to predict, a 50/50 on a move seems pretty good. Fthrow -> dash attack DI away, while fthrow -> fair covers most any other DI.

Yes it is legit. Fthrow>Dash Attack also works in Marth dittos. Usually at higher % after the fthrow>fsmash stops working and the Uthrow>Utilt. Try around 60%. It's great I use it all the time.

 

[Niko45]

Pretty sure it is not legit but maybe at certain % or something.

It might be a real combo near the ledge since there's nothing for them to tech on there and that's what stops it from working on stage.

 

[knightpraetor]

i think it works best on floaty but fails to DI away and down except at mid-high percents..people tend to use it at low percent anyway because a lot of the time the opponent only gets slight DI away instead of all the way away and down and then gets comboed anyway.

but that's just my thought..anyone who has tested it more thoroughly feel free to enlighten us...most of my testing has been devoted to vs spacie stuff (as i think you would need really high punishment off the grab to have any chances)..if i had a peach to play with i would play with that stuff. however, upthrow in general feels better.

 

[ShroudedOne]

I feel like if Peach DI's down + away enough, she can ground tech the dash attack? I've seen it occur a few times, but I'm not entirely sure. If this is true, though, then it makes it tons riskier.

 

[knightpraetor]

i think that again that only works at lower percents..marth's way over use that move though.

 

[Beat!]

Fthrow -> dash attack is pretty good, but I think Niko's right. It usually only feels truly "legit" when the throw sends them off stage. There are probably a few exceptions, though.

Try around 60%

No. Do fthrow -> pivot fsmash instead (we're already assuming non-perfect DI if the dash attack is supposed to hit). Tipper fsmash will start killing around then, at least vs floaties, and even when it doesn't, it will put them in a worse situation than a dash attack would (unless they DI into your Ken combo or something).

 

[Bones0]

When would fthrow dash cancelled dsmash work (if ever)?

 

[Beat!]

Uhh, I doubt it would ever legitimately combo, but I can sort of see it working sometimes at high % against floaties who don't pay attention.

Fthrow -> pivot dsmash would be pretty **** if turning around could be avoided (maybe it can, but I always turn around).

 

[AustinRC]

Beat!, that is possible to do. It takes like an extra three frames or something like that. It's basically a double pivot.... However you won't reach them in time. I'm trying to come up with something to prevent peach from DI'ing down and away hopefully I'll come up with something though. Please be patient. I'll reveal most of what I know in a text format sometime after the next major tournament.