Important Carefully Ask PPMD about the Tiara Guy

[Roche_CL]

I find much more reliable to jab reset from a missed tech. Just my opinion. Side B seems to vary too much, sometimes floaties get off the ground and they can airdodge inmediately, also CCable.

I'd like to discuss Ftilt, my idea about it, comparing to Fsmash:
-Hitbox maybe goes a little lower, and doesnt hit on top ofyour head.
-Tipper is really strong.
-No tipper sucks.
-Less lag than Fsmash, similar startup time.

When to use it in :
Edgeguard:
-Spacies who are Up-Bing from above the plataform and can grab the ledge downwards or avoid and direct it upwards. I've seen last m2k vs pp videos and he tends to Dtilt, wich starts and ends faster, so you cover them if they direct to the ledge, and you can react if they go upwards. This option don't cover full horizontal direction and pp punished that in their set.
Im really not that sure about this, i wish i could test it but i dont have anyone now.
Maybe you can Ftilt and cover downards and straight and still be able to react if they go upwards.

Approach:
-Years ago i discovered that when you were on those DD wars, one option was to wavedash foward and Ftilt, comes really fast and it is less risky than randomly Fsmash. I know that DD and Dtilt are maybe the best options for spacing and approach, but sometimes against slower chars (not fox, or falcon), or those who tend to jump over (ganon, Dr Mario), you can still use it as an option. I like it specially in marth Dittos.

so what you guys think about the underrated Ftilt?

 

[Bones0]

If you aren't frequently edgeguarding spacies with ftilt, idk what's wrong with you.

 

[knightpraetor]

ftilt is the edgeguarding truth...safer than fsmash against firefox..easier to time....knockback better..so you can actually follow up and finish if they tried survival DI.

i like ftilt against floaties or characters that attempt to box you out. not really taht reliable against fox/falco/falcon but decent if it is guaranteed to send off stage even with a nontipper ftilt

 

[.Chipmunk.]

ftilt hits above platforms as well, and it can mess with people who try to time spotdodges for fsmash because it travels from low to high instead of high to low.

 

[MasterShake]

Does tipper ftilt hit slightly below the edge?

 

[Inty17]

Can we talk about rolling? I hate rolling and I try to never roll on purpose, but I find I have to use it to get out of pressure sometimes.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

ftilt hits above platforms as well, and it can mess with people who try to time spotdodges for fsmash because it travels from low to high instead of high to low.

I can never get Ftilt to hit on platforms on PS1 or BF except on certain characters for some reason.

Does tipper ftilt hit slightly below the edge?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B9uzuFbJgvY

Can we talk about rolling? I hate rolling and I try to never roll on purpose, but I find I have to use it to get out of pressure sometimes.

Overusage is bad. Never using is bad.

 

[knightpraetor]

ftilt to cover platforms ***** in the ditto...fsmash is fine though for covering platforms as opponents come down in all honesty.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

Oh, yeah. DD into pivot ftilt is the way of the future.

 

[ShroudedOne]

That sounds really difficult. But pivoting seems to be "the future" for Marth, I guess, in that it seems to be getting really common now. Which is good.

 

[Divinokage]

Can we talk about rolling? I hate rolling and I try to never roll on purpose, but I find I have to use it to get out of pressure sometimes.

WD OOS to get out of pressure too, there will be always frames where youll be able to do that.. and doing that also allows Marth to do a direct counter-attack if the opponent decides to attack again after you've gained enough space.

That sounds really difficult. But pivoting seems to be "the future" for Marth, I guess, in that it seems to be getting really common now. Which is good.

Ya right, pivoting is a thing from the distant past. lol

 

[Bones0]

I agree with Kage. You should roll sometimes, but Marth's WD OoS is so good it's usually the better option.

 

[DuckPimp]

fthrow to pivot fsmash

discuss?

 

[Dr Peepee]

Been trying to get this on Peach and Puff a lot

.....

I suck at it but am gonna practice it specifically next chance I get lol.


It's good vs them. I'm not sure about vs any other characters honestly but I imagine with the magic of DI and surprise it could work on characters like ICs or Ganon or maybe a spacie getting Fthrown offstage as well.

 

[Bones0]

People still don't do pivot fsmash when uthrowing spacies. It's way easier because you have so much time to set it up and read their DI (or lackthereof). Spacies always go for the DI on top so Marth has to pivot (at lower %s) or to avoid fsmash (around 70-80%), and they usually end up Twist DIing the fsmash because they are holding down to shine out.

 

[Construct]

Sweetspotted up-b out of uthrow (on FFers) or to finish aerial combos is the truth

I still ****ing suck at pivots, they're too hard lol

 

[Beat!]

Fthrow pivot fsmash definitely shines vs floaties, but it can also be really good vs other characters. Sheik at high % comes to mind. Also, Marth dittos.

Upthrow - pivot fsmash on spacies at 70-80% sounds decent, but Marth's combo tree lets him keep the combo going for even longer than that (strong and weak uairs) and still finish with tipper fsmash, so it would be a bit sub-optimal.

 

[Jake13]

Not sub-optimal

Example: m2k v pp winners finals last match on fd (I think). M2k upthrows > tip fsmash and ****s up pp's di

That's why its so good, messes ppls DI up terribad unless they expect it


Also, if you're talking fthrow to the right > dash right > pivot left > fsmash right. That's the business and can kill puff NP at like 80-90% (stage dependent)

 

[Beat!]

What?

As you said yourself, PP screwed up the DI. Had he DI'd better, he would've lived. How is that not sub-optimal, when following the combo tree correctly would've ensured a kill regardless of DI?

 

[AustinRC]

Thinking about doing an instructional video for pivoting specifically with Marth. Sooo many people have been talking about it lately I figure it'll probably really help.

Also people you don't have to pivot fsmash after upthrowing spacies. You only have to pivot grab if you want to continue chain grabbing.

 

[Winston]

Sweetspotted up-b out of uthrow (on FFers) or to finish aerial combos is the truth

marth's up B is a terrible finisher when they DI it.

 

[Construct]

Thinking about doing an instructional video for pivoting specifically with Marth. Sooo many people have been talking about it lately I figure it'll probably really help.

Also people you don't have to pivot fsmash after upthrowing spacies. You only have to pivot grab if you want to continue chain grabbing.

That would be super helpful.

I thought for the like 70-90% u-throw fsmash tippers on no DI you just took one step in the opposite direction and then fsmashed, that's what i've always done. Crimson Blur had a really good post on it somewhere.

marth's up B is a terrible finisher when they DI it.

All my friends are scrubs (i am too though), so that's probably true. It works up to really high percents on spacies out of uthrow though, so i've been using it when I just can't seem to close out a stock and it's been great

 

[AustinRC]

I thought for the like 70-90% u-throw fsmash tippers on no DI you just took one step in the opposite direction and then fsmashed, that's what i've always done. Crimson Blur had a really good post on it somewhere.

quoted for truth! It's just that easy.

 

[Jake13]

What?

As you said yourself, PP screwed up the DI. Had he DI'd better, he would've lived. How is that not sub-optimal, when following the combo tree correctly would've ensured a kill regardless of DI?

maybe he was expecting an up air and DI'd accordingly. it works bc ppl expect something else and DI for that. something about mindgames maybe? If you always did the optimal thing you could always be read


austinRC for prez of pivoting

 

[MT_]

austinRC for prez of pivoting

Oh come on now Jake. Everyone knows that Austin learned how to pivot (and everything else he knows) from copying me.

 

[Beat!]

maybe he was expecting an up air and DI'd accordingly. it works bc ppl expect something else and DI for that. something about mindgames maybe? If you always did the optimal thing you could always be read


austinRC for prez of pivoting

Was there something about "would've ensured a kill regardless of DI" that was unclear? Because otherwise, whether he "DI'd the up air accordingly" or not is irrelevant.

Yes, sometimes it may be better to not go with the optimal option. If it's an important match and you're feeling nervous or unsure of your execution, for example. That has nothing to do with what I said, though (I even admitted that uthrow tipper is a decent option in that situation). I just said it's suboptimal. Because it is.

 

[MT_]

Was there something about "would've ensured a kill regardless of DI" that was unclear? Because otherwise, whether he "DI'd the up air accordingly" or not is irrelevant.

Yes, sometimes it may be better to not go with the optimal option. If it's an important match and you're feeling nervous or unsure of your execution, for example. That has nothing to do with what I said, though (I even admitted that uthrow tipper is a decent option in that situation). I just said it's suboptimal. Because it is.

Just sayin', but claiming that Marth can 100% guarantee the kill off of uthrow is definitely debatable (especially on stages that aren't FD). If that were the case, then unless Marth players really suck at execution for a character with a (relatively) low tech skill barrier, Marths in general should be doing a lot better against spacies.

 

[Niko45]

Marths have always seemed to perform great against spacies relative to marth's other matchups (which are supposed to be easier).

 

[S l o X]

I think it's because:
1. Everyone likes fast paced matchups. It's melee and a lot of people are eager to jump in / see combos happen. People are also impatient in other match ups as opposed to v Fox / Falco.
2. There is a lot of hit > wait v other characters as opposed to hit / grab > death combos on spacies. Playing vs floaties is just naturally more fun.

Then there are a select few who love slow matchups like PP and I think would be perfect for Marth vs floaties but we have seen very little of it.

 

[Roche_CL]

yeah, is just that, when you play a decent fox, if you are good you can **** him, but if he gets a little better and gets good with punished, any mistake will cost you lot of % or a kill, same with falco.
I remember recking all those spacies back in my days, then they got good, i stopped playing (so i tend to miss some L-Cancels), and i get ***** sometimes :s

what do you think of the falcon matchup, and sheik's?
i find way too hard the falcon matchup, and sheik's seems to be more easy, maybe is just that i dont have good sheiks, or too good falcon players xd.

 

[Dr Peepee]

I think it's because:
1. Everyone likes fast paced matchups. It's melee and a lot of people are eager to jump in / see combos happen. People are also impatient in other match ups as opposed to v Fox / Falco.
2. There is a lot of hit > wait v other characters as opposed to hit / grab > death combos on spacies. Playing vs floaties is just naturally more fun.

Then there are a select few who love slow matchups like PP and I think would be perfect for Marth vs floaties but we have seen very little of it.

I love all matchups with Marth(except Sheik lol), it's just I prefer slower ones with Falco I suppose. I'm not terribly picky in general to be honest I just don't have to GOGOGO all of the time haha.

yeah, is just that, when you play a decent fox, if you are good you can **** him, but if he gets a little better and gets good with punished, any mistake will cost you lot of % or a kill, same with falco.
I remember recking all those spacies back in my days, then they got good, i stopped playing (so i tend to miss some L-Cancels), and i get ***** sometimes :s

what do you think of the falcon matchup, and sheik's?
i find way too hard the falcon matchup, and sheik's seems to be more easy, maybe is just that i dont have good sheiks, or too good falcon players xd.

I am pretty unsure about Falcon matchup in general but it's doable no matter who "wins" it. Marth gets hard punishes on Falcon through tech chasing and upthrow uptilt/Fair combos and gimps. Falcon punishes Marth hard with throws and Uairs and they both easily edgeguard each other.

Sheik is bleh =( It's probably doable but the Marth has to be playing extremely well and in a specific fashion to win.

 

[SwiftBass]

Marths have always seemed to perform great against spacies relative to marth's other matchups (which are supposed to be easier).

Well look at the representation of falco and fox in comparison to the likes of pikachu, ganon, CF etc etc. They are still a very significant part of the meta. A characters ability to combo spacies I think is one of the longest standing parts of the metagame.

 

[Ripple]

I swear I'm the only marth that likes the sheik MU

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

^I've come to enjoy it. I still lose all the time, but it always seems even. Marth just gets fewer free hits, but I might be wrong about that.

Marths have always seemed to perform great against spacies relative to marth's other matchups (which are supposed to be easier).

Those two are just super common. Everyone will build up an understanding of spacies earlier than any other character. The only exceptions are your outlier character picks in your own area. You get marth, shiek, falcon, jiggs, fox, falco, peach exp, and then the random roy or ganon player. The biggest reason I think is because spacies vs marth are wreck or be wrecked match-ups since its easy for huge punishes on each.

Marth vs Jiggs, you do not get a one hit and a series of free hits. You work for each hit and you could have a huge number of mistakes in there.

 

[Divinokage]

I swear I'm the only marth that likes the sheik MU

Did you forget about Dart so quickly?

 

[Niko45]

Yea I think the common-ness of spacies certainly plays a huge role. But do other characters see the same effect?

Marth just has to be on point with his footsies against floaties. It's much easier to recover from mistakes against spacies cause you can catch up just as quickly as you fell behind where as that is less the case in at least some floaty matchups. Discipline is key.

 

[Dr Peepee]

I think comebacks are totally possible vs floaties, but they just take longer lol. Get a nice grab combo at low percent, and don't drop the juggle/get a setup into tipper Fsmash and you're back in the game.

40000000000% agree with Niko's last sentence though. Patience and discipline is how you get the floaty(or floatier) matchups done. It's not even like you do nothing in them you just can't fling yourself everywhere like you're a spacie lol.

 

[Ripple]

Did you forget about Dart so quickly?

I can't tell if this is sarcasm or not so ill assume its not and say dart hates sheik

 

[Divinokage]

I guess you can **** at the matchup but still hate it? Though that doesnt seem plausible to me because if you hate something, your potential to be good at it is reduced by a lot.

 

[AustinRC]

Oh come on now Jake. Everyone knows that Austin learned how to pivot (and everything else he knows) from copying me.

Oh and also Jake, marry me? :D