Important Carefully Ask PPMD about the Tiara Guy

[Rubyiris]

I've taken over or begun invading most of the char spec boards.

sup .

 

[DippnDots]

****'s about to get real

 

[TheCrimsonBlur]

Alright, I have a question! What would Marth have to do to evolve his metagame?

I've thought this question over a lot. I think it is important for every Marth to ask themselves this. I am confident I have reached the answer.

Tech skill. I could write a very, very long post about it, but thats the answer. Marths are not as comfortable with their character as other high-tier mains are. I almost want to write out, with tons of video evidence, WHY and HOW we are failing in tech skill but I feel it might be more effective to just eventually show it.

If its not me who reaches that level, someone else will. We will see the rise of Marth again, but first we all, collectively, have to go into our rooms, turn the lights off, and press buttons. Really fast.

 

[OverLord]

I guess it would be better to not get hit, as fast as you can!

 

[Smooth Criminal]

If its not me who reaches that level, someone else will. We will see the rise of Marth again, but first we all, collectively, have to go into our rooms, turn the lights off, and press buttons. Really fast.

That sounds soooooooooooooooooooooooooooo ****ing dirty, Crimson. Innuendo, much?

XD

Smooth Criminal

 

[stelzig]

I've thought this question over a lot. I think it is important for every Marth to ask themselves this. I am confident I have reached the answer.

Tech skill. I could write a very, very long post about it, but thats the answer. Marths are not as comfortable with their character as other high-tier mains are. I almost want to write out, with tons of video evidence, WHY and HOW we are failing in tech skill but I feel it might be more effective to just eventually show it.

If its not me who reaches that level, someone else will. We will see the rise of Marth again, but first we all, collectively, have to go into our rooms, turn the lights off, and press buttons. Really fast.

I think finding ways to KO at different percents, and perhaps simply getting even better at gimping/edgeguarding would be a better answer.

Oh, and don't get hit.

 

[TheCrimsonBlur]

What I meant is that I think Marth is more well-suited for a poke heavy harrassment game rather than what we do now: a reaction based high punish game. But its pretty hard to do that when even the top Marths struggle at swinging their sword from both directions lol.

Dtilt and retreating fair. They're broken. We don't even use them much.

 

[OverLord]

I think we should concentrate on being smooth and frame-perfect on such things like wavedashing/wavelanding, upairs, d-tilts and reacting.. and not getting hit, seriously, it's not a joke this time.. I often play friendly matches just trying to not get hit, and not approaching and comboing.. it works for improving spacing and mindgames..

I see more this playstyle in Europe though.. You can see Zgetto, Ice, Amsah always playing smooth and elegant more than super flashy..

I remember Zgetto this summer in Birmingham doing simple things, not super fast, just doing those things perfectly, so that you have time to react from opponents moves after each of yours.. it definitely opened my mind..

 

[TemPesT-]

i gotta work on uptilting instead of upsmashing every time i'm doing something before i try and uptilt lol

 

[ILM]

Just a quick question about Marth, since this seems the right place to put it. When I'm grabbed by a Sheik, which way should I DI to get out of the downthrow? I've been experimenting with it but so far, no luck.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

if they aren't chain grabbing you, DI away from sheik and keep holding that way to DI the ftilt away. If you DI that way, sheik has a free regrab so many sheiks will choose to CG you until you don't DI away and then combo you. If you play against a sheik like that, your best bet is to DI behind her and keep holding that direction and press B to sideb so you dodge a regrab attempt. If they choose to utilt/ftilt/usmash you, you will likely still get hit but at least you will be DIing that hit away and you won't have used your jump.

 

[ILM]

Thanks, I have problems with getting regrabbed over and over again, so I'll try putting what you said into action.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

make sure you don't try to sideb towards the sheik because you will end up DIing the ftilt/utilt/usmash in which = free slap =

 

[MT_]

Anyone have general tips for getting the first hit against Falcon? There's this really fast but safe Falcon that's essentially on the same level as me who is in complete control of his movement game and it's soooo hard for me to get the first hit in the matchup for some reason. However, when either of us DO get a first hit, it usually ends up in **** for whoever got hit. I wish I had videos but there are no recording setups at the tourneys I've been going to .

General tips will be nice though. I know that Marth and Falcon both don't have any real approaches versus each other but I find myself getting caught by Falcon's nair whenever I am dashdancing, and when I'm not dashdancing I always get baited into whiffing utilt (though it isn't always punished). The only time I ever get first hits I feel like is a lucky hit from like dash attack or pivot fsmash, or when he (rarely) stupidly runs into my utilt. It's getting to become rather frustrating to get the **** first hit!!! haha

 

[Tee ay eye]

someone should write a detailed post answering MT's question.

since it would probably be useful to me in some way.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

WOW im pissed. I spent 20 minutes doing an in depth write up of the match-up and my browser fails to post and i lost the whole thing

 

[maXXXpower]

full hop f-air or retreating full hop f-air.

done.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

lol if you're playing ganon. falcon will just run under you and uair you. i dont think he cares if he trades with a weak hit fair cause he can still combo you out of his own lag loool

 

[MT_]

@Sveet yeah I was thinking that too. Full hop fair is not exactly the smartest thing, even if it is retreating lol. Retreating short hop fair is a lot better but still not the safest thing if the Falcon is good at aiming at the timing gap between fair and utilt (if he even decides to approach, that is). Thing is, retreating short hop fair (or retreating anything) only works defensively and isn't going to hit a smart Falcon that isn't going to approach when you can do that.

Sad that you lost your writeup

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

yeah. i really dont feel like rewriting it either, tbh. either someone else will do it now or someone will ask sometime later and ill have motivation to do it

 

[Falcinho]

Watch Strawhat Dahean vs Darkrain, i think he did a good job.

The good thing about Falcons who only wait for you to approach is that you can push them to the ledge relatively easy.

And since you said you're getting nair'd too often: It's somehow works for me to CC grab those most of the time.

 

[KAOSTAR]

yea **** like full use of pivots would be amazing.

stay in DD and up tilt foxes away. space their landings with d tilt.

crazy shield drops and more circular shield pressure.

tech marth would **** sooo hard.

marth is behind.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Marth vs Falcon is all about who is more defensive. Falcon's defense ***** marth's few options at approaching from neutral. Marth's defensive options **** falcon's appraoch from neutral. Whoever gets a hit will do **** amounts of damage to the opponent. Personally, I think falcon's combos are safer and more guaranteed, overall. My biggest problem for a long time was that I love to be aggro and its difficult in the MU because of how well falcon can tuck and dodge around marth's spacing.

In general, all of marth's moves beat falcon's if they clash, but falcon has the ability to run circles around marth and can punish any amount of lag with high reward.

If I were marth, I would try to get very close to a falcon who is just bait->punishing and try to stand still and cover my hurtbox with tilts and aerials if he is being aggressive.

 

[Dart!]

Marth vs Falcon is all about who is more defensive. Falcon's defense ***** marth's few options at approaching from neutral. Marth's defensive options **** falcon's appraoch from neutral. Whoever gets a hit will do **** amounts of damage to the opponent. Personally, I think falcon's combos are safer and more guaranteed, overall. My biggest problem for a long time was that I love to be aggro and its difficult in the MU because of how well falcon can tuck and dodge around marth's spacing.

In general, all of marth's moves beat falcon's if they clash, but falcon has the ability to run circles around marth and can punish any amount of lag with high reward.

If I were marth, I would try to get very close to a falcon who is just bait->punishing and try to stand still and cover my hurtbox with tilts and aerials if he is being aggressive.

so playing the right way? start doing that and you'll beat orly

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

meh i've given up on marf. maybe not forever, but i want to focus on fox without using marth as my crutch

 

[JBM falcon08]

Marth vs falcon seems pretty dumb to me.

It seems as though you aren't always better off to try and dash dance off with him. Marths dasdance is godly but falcons just too fast.

I seem to have a better chance if i approach with aerials more so than rely on dd.

 

[makoforce]

why does my dtilt have so much lag at the end when i do them?

 

[mers]

why does my dtilt have so much lag at the end when i do them?

Dtilit has IASA (Interruptible As Soon As) frames, and quite a lot of them. The moment Marth starts pulling his sword back, you can do several things: shield, walk, any A move, and probably a lot of other stuff. If you hold forward/back on the joystick as soon as you dtilt, on the first possible frame Marth will interrupt his dtilt with a walk, which you can then do anything from.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

while the rest is true, u cant iasa with shield

 

[OverLord]

^this

but you can actually D-Tilt, hold away and press R/L to get a Shield out of your tilt

 

[TemPesT-]

you guys talking about the iasa frames reminded me of a thread showing a marth dtilt then hold back to avoid shield grabs... just wonder have any marth players been using it and having any success with it? i forgot about it until just now.

something about how he's like in his turning animation, just puts him outside of many ppls grab ranges.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

ya its just spacing. if u hit with the tip you can dodge shield grabs if you hit with the inner hitboxes they can grab you before iasa

 

[AlcyoNite]

dr pp gave me some of the best advice ive ever heard for the marth vs falco matchup:

delayed f-airs and d-tilt

i promise, its sooo good.

 

[KirbyKaze]

I promise you Fair OOS is good vs Falco too but you don't hear me talking about it.

**** why am I posting somewhat useful information.

I should be talking about leaping into action with dynamite-encrusted baboon hearts or something.

**** you Marth boards.

 

[Rubyiris]

sveet: let this be a lesson to ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS write anything more than a line or two in notepad and copy/paste it over.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

I suppose... I hate notepad tho

 

[KirbyKaze]

i've used wordpad

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

meh **** it, i know i'll never change my habits of formatting my posts on the site cause itll only **** up once every year.

 

[KAOSTAR]

meh i've given up on marf. maybe not forever, but i want to focus on fox without using marth as my crutch

ive done the same. so far its working out pretty well.

 

[mers]

you guys talking about the iasa frames reminded me of a thread showing a marth dtilt then hold back to avoid shield grabs... just wonder have any marth players been using it and having any success with it? i forgot about it until just now.

something about how he's like in his turning animation, just puts him outside of many ppls grab ranges.

Yep. It actually works even if you don't tipper. It really depends on their grab range, because no matter what you start turning away before they grab. So if their range is long enough to grab your pullback (Sheik), then you should probably tipper. Against, say, Falcon, you can do it surprisingly close.

Here's my question. Why do Marths hardly ever fthrow -> wavedash or dash and pivot -> fsmash on floaties? It works to way higher percents than you'd expect if you do it quickly enough. I realize that the timing is hard, but Fox and Falcon mains are used to responding instantly out of throw animations, so you'd think we could get it down.