Important Carefully Ask PPMD about the Tiara Guy

[Kira-]

the fact is, doing wavedash back after the shine doesn't work if the Falco is doing his **** right

something beats wd back after the shine straight up? or like they can follow up smartly and get another opportunity

 

[Tee ay eye]

http://www.youtube.com/user/spiralflame88

start squealing over mango's marth, guys

 

[Winston]

Sorry, I didn't see the last line.

What is this proper spacing that beats the wavedash back though? The default pillaring pattern will have Falco sh and do a somewhat delayed aerial, because if he does an aerial right away he'd get shieldgrabbed if you just stayed in shield. There should be enough time for you to wavedash out.

Of course if falco does something other than the default pillaring or shinegrab he can beat this, but I don't see why he automatically beats it by spacing correctly like you're saying.

 

[mers]

Basic aerial-shine-aerial-shine shield pressure is full of gaping holes that allow Marth to wavedash, roll, or shieldgrab out of. Falcos can shift their timing to change where these vulnerable areas are, but careful play still allows you to punish. This is why Falco players do things like waveshine, double/triple shine, shine-grab, retreating aerials, etc. No matter which method you use to escape their pressure, its a gamble, but if you predict an aerial after the shine then wavedashing out is probably a good idea.

Basically, what Gustav Wind just said is correct.

 

[Vonzar the Soulrender]

Thanks for the advice, I main Link/Samus but I'm picking up Marth for when I feel like actually winning something. As soon as I get good enough to beat the top players in my pro region >_> (IE: never)

 

[OverLord]

an example on how to beat a wavedash oos with Falco.

If Falco is pressuring, Marth tries a WD after his shine, and Falco immediatly does a Nair out of shine, it comes out just in time to hit Marth in the face. If Marth stays in shield, Falco can space the Nair on his shield to not get grabbed, Marth tries a Shieldgrab, and BAM Fsmash by Falco (Lambchops/Mango).

Wavedash back works when Falco is not pressuring right, this means his shine is not hitting your shield right, or maybe at all. It can happen when Falco goes over you with a Nair, if he shines instead of UTilting, you can wavedash>Fsmash him in the face. You can also wavedashing back when you predict how Falco is going to approach you. But meanwhile the pressure, you can't do it safely, Falco has always time to put an aerial.

This doesn't mean you can't try it, but in my personal opinion, it's not safe at all.

 

[Dark Sonic]

^^The problem with what your saying is

"and Falco immediately does a Nair out of shine."

Right here you've done exactly what Gustav Wind just said. You altered the timing of standard shield pressure to punish a predictable action. However, in this very scenario, Marth can just remain shielding and fair OoS (why would he try to shieldgrab knowing that Falco can retreat from the nair? That's just the Marth player messing up) You can even tip the fair from this range and you know what that means? (free grab ) So it's just a guessing game that actually favors the Marth player. Just don't be too predictable with your wavedash OoS since if that's all you're going to do you're just gonna get naired every time. Punish that instant nair with a 60% combo to death a single time and I swear he'll stop doing it.


Wavedash back works whenever the Falco player is doing the standard shine->delayed aerial shield pressure. The reason that Falco players do this is because it has the best risk:reward ratio (as immediate aerials are punished on reaction, while shine grabs just don't give you much reward).


Fair OoS is actually just as bad as wavedashing OoS for escaping Falco's shield pressure. It has all the weaknesses of wavedash OoS, so the only difference is what you get out of it. Wavedash OoS gives you an f-smash which could send them off stage, while fair OoS knocks them over and might give you a tech chase (you're not tipping the fair at this range <_<).


Don't think that just because some maneuvers have a counter that they're not useful anymore. Especially when said counter has serious risk and little reward.

 

[OverLord]

no, the point is that every Falco will delay a Dair, but no one will delay a Nair O_o' (not as much as a Dair anyway)

Falco can Nair>Shine pretty safely if he's fast. Retreating the Nair is for baiting a grab, and if Marth goes for a Fair OoS, Falco can shield in time if he reatreted it, he can even do a jab after the Nair and get you exposed, but if Falco does not reatret it, he can FF and Shine again with like 13 frames while he could be punished.

You can wavedash back just in reaction to moments while Falco is not doing his stuff right, if he knows how to work on your shield and baiting, wavedashing is, IMO, not safe as a Fair/Dair OoS. Fair is safer, and yes, you can tipper if you space it right, I swear, even if he's right in front of you, jumping towards your shield.

Anyway, it's kinda a matter of experience. You will get to the point that you just feel and see what you can do in reaction to the pressure. There'll be moments that you'll see that a wavedash could give advantage, and others where a Fair/Dair will feel right. Just play and try to understand when you can or not.

 

[Dark Sonic]

^^And my point was

Why do you believe that fair/dair OoS is safer? There's pretty much nothing to support this. They both get beat by the exact same strategies in the exact same ways. Doing either one right after a shine risks getting hit by an immediate aerial, and waiting before doing either still risks falling to standard shield pressure. They both fall to the EXACT SAME baits. So telling players to not use wavedash OoS because fair OoS is safer is just going to hamper them because...it really is just a matter of playstyle preference.

 

[KAOSTAR]

the way I saw it was if falco was spacing to not get shield grabbed then when he comes up with nair he is toward the tip of the foot. shield di and the wd oos would probably escape that. its a small distance and it does take some time after the shine to jump nair.

if not ....

like dark sonic said. fair after the nair.

if they are closer with dair shines to the point they would fade back the nair to bait a sg, you can probably grab b4 they even nair.

basically you can't make scenarios where one side always ***** because they have 999 stat adaption lol.

 

[OverLord]

yeah in fact, Marth is safe just avoiding get pressured at all xD

anyway, Fair is safer cause it's a move, if it hits it gets to a freegrab/another Fair/Dtilt/whateva

wavedashing does not assure anything after it, you can WD and do something, but if Falco sees it, he will just shield whatever you're gonna do, or laser you and start pressure again (and it's pretty easy to follow up Marth lasering)


but as you said is also a matter of playstyle


so, the real advice is this: avoid get pressured. It works better than everything.


EDIT: yeah I forgot, if someone is good enough he can shield DI the Dair/Nair, it's cool, saw Fuzzyness doing it

 

[mers]

Anyway, it's kinda a matter of experience. You will get to the point that you just feel and see what you can do in reaction to the pressure. There'll be moments that you'll see that a wavedash could give advantage, and others where a Fair/Dair will feel right. Just play and try to understand when you can or not.

Even though I disagree with the point you made before this, this paragraph is EXACTLY right. When you get better, you see these opportunities and can make the decision between your various options. There are lots of reactions to Falco's shield pressure, and lots of ways for him to counter them. Its called pressure because it forces you to do something while limiting which options are safe. Its up to you to use the correct one.

 

[OverLord]

yeah

my other points are just what I think should work theoretically.. when it comes to fact, it's always different from person to person, but I think that discussing on something like this is good for people to know what they can do, and understand what is best for their playstyle.. so whatever it's fine and good for the discussion

 

[KAOSTAR]

yeah in fact, Marth is safe just avoiding get pressured at all xD

anyway, Fair is safer cause it's a move, if it hits it gets to a freegrab/another Fair/Dtilt/whateva

wavedashing does not assure anything after it, you can WD and do something, but if Falco sees it, he will just shield whatever you're gonna do, or laser you and start pressure again (and it's pretty easy to follow up Marth lasering)so, the real advice is this: avoid get pressured. It works better than everything.

Just in response to the argument of just dont get pressured. Ideally that would ****. but there is no way you can stop a good spacie from pressuring you at least a lil bit.

in my experience, there is no way to beat a falco that is pressuring you. Just think about it: Falco has lasers and ungrabbable aerials because of the shine. If he's pressuring, you're losing.

Position yourself in an area where he can't shoot lasers or constantly put the Falco in range of any tilts or aerials so that he doesn't pressure.

Basically just pressure him before he pressures you

thats terrible advice lol.

falco is going to pressure you in some way everytime he approaches. you have to learn to deal with it. I do think its good to be relentless when you get the chance, make your punishes count!

lasers at a distance are annoying, but marth can handle them. power shield on the go, or shield then wd oos. jumping over them is an option but more of a cop out.

you can angle your shield to make them potentially miss an L cancel or mess up their FF. that or if they aerial early you can grab b4 the shine granted the spacing is there.(shield di to get closer)

if they aerial late, the shine is given, but you can grab after it.

at mid percents you can up b oos in places you can grab but it has more speed and range.(can be used to escape to a platform)

if they leave those openings(they will, its your job to punish) fair oos to turn your defense into offense.

if **** gets hectic wd oos away and reset.

the better you are at dealing with pressure the better off you will do against falco.

I kind of agree, because all of that is good advice for dealing with pressure, but I also disagree. When a good Falco gets you in pressure, they have control of the situation and you'll probably get hit (too many mindgames available for them at this point).

Learning to stay out of Falco's pressure as much as possible is much more key overall imo.

im not disagreeing that staying out of pressure is important if you can. or even that ultimately its your key to victory.

but all falco needs is to make you shield.

they have incredible mix ups. but its not guaranteed. the point is you need to limit the damage you end up taking. its more likely you will get pressured than not.

but its not perfect, you gotta handle that pressure.

if I had to choose 1 ideally, ability to not get pressured.

if I had to choose 1 realistically, ability to deal with pressure.

telling ppl that if you get pressured there is nothing you can do about it is bad advice. it would be better if you give somebody ways to avoid pressure.

but the dude asked how to deal with being stuck in my shield.

the response was, its best to not get pressured....

bad advice imo and also not even relevant to the question since it didn't address a single one of the issues he had. realistically YOU WILL GET PRESSURED, now when in that situation how do I deal with it.

read my post ^_^

 

[Niko45]

I still maintain you should just stay out of shield pressure as much as possible. At mid-level you can WD out tipper the crap out of falco but better falcos will apply safer pressure and wait for a response from you for them to take advantage of.

You should never be getting into shield pressure from a neutral position. You can WD/jump too fast after lasers for them to follow up. Mostly tech chases can lead to falco shield pressure where, yea, you then need to be proficient at escaping, while mixing it up so the falco doesn't get a good read on what you're doing out of shield pressure. The more you get into shield pressure, the more comfortable they get pressuring you and reading your habits out of the pressure, so stay out of pressure as much as possible to keep them off balance.

I just think it's better to focus on this than to focus on what you're doing once in shield pressure, because really its pretty simple. You're either rolling in either direction, WDing in either direction, or hesitating in shield. Just mix these ups and adapt to whats working and focus on escaping, not counter attacking (for the most part, unless its blatantly there).

 

[KAOSTAR]

I still agree. but laser shine fade away aerial or laser shine wd back is gay. and sometimes you get cornered.

you can't turtle forever because lasers are spam city. so you do have to make your way towards falco.

like I said. rather not be pressured, but id want to know what to do when it happens. I just think its too likely of a situation to not worry about.

you can punish rolls on reaction. even if you shoot a laser and wait for a reaction. that could lead to a punish.

its incredibly difficult to completely avoid falco shield pressure.

my goals are always stay out of pressure and limit the damage I take from each falco approach then keep good stage position.

 

[OverLord]

so, we finally reached a mutual point

avoid pressure as much as you can, and deal with it keepin' in mind all the **** in this thread, gaining from experience the feeling of what is better to do in every situation..

I guess it should work fine

 

[JBM falcon08]

Overtriforce just made this thread 10x better.

 

[Tee ay eye]

overtriforce is from spain

 

[Strong Badam]

you guys should experiment by playing some falco players without ever shieldnig

 

[AceDudeyeah]

These shield pressure options discussed in the last 2 or so pages against Falco, are they any different against Fox? Just a smaller frame for you to react upon because of Fox's quick jump speed?

 

[OverLord]

Fox is a pain in the *** cause it's much faster.. if he's really fast, you can do almost nothing, just roll and get punished for rolling lol xD

no seriously, they can work against Fox, WD back works better than against Falco IMO

but I suggest crouching Fox's Nair>Shield to cancel momentum>Grab>Stock, kinda like M2K

against Fox is more a work of spacing and dash dancing, you need to grab him and then keep controlling the stock


PS: I'm not Overtriforce xD, but thanks, it's good for me to know someone appreciates my advices, discussing and confronts makes better ^^

 

[KAOSTAR]

If you CC and get hit and throw up a shield its not going to stop your momentum instantly like when you shield stop from a dash.

 

[mers]

True, but spamming shieldgrab is the quickest way to reliably grab from CC.

you guys should experiment by playing some falco players without ever shieldnig

This is actually a really interesting thing to practice. It definitely helps you learn new ways to deal with lasers and pressure.

 

[Strong Badam]

fox's shine has less damage and therefore less shieldstun than falco's (2 frames to be exact).
his faster shffl and jump speed makes it harder to escape his shield pressure, though.

 

[SwiftBass]

cactuar or whoever plays fox....

which do you use to aerial out of shield?(like a short hop bair)

Z? Cstick? a buttton?

 

[Brookman]

depending on what I want to do I use both a and the c stick :o

 

[SwiftBass]

depending on what I want to do I use both a and the c stick :o

is your choice influenced by what is happening to you? say I nair through your sheild(behind you) with falco....

 

[KAOSTAR]

I use z. if you nair through me I would jump x and aerial bair with z.

if I was trying a falling uair I would use c stick.

for me using z is easier to be fast. I can usually aerial right away with z but cant space as well. so I would use c stick to fade a bair away but if im sure ill hit I use z and try to bair oos as fast as possible.

c stick for delays or better aerial spacing

z for speed.

 

[Strong Badam]

I c-stick all of my nairs.

 

[OverLord]

kinda like Hax

 

[JesiahTEG]

c stickkkkk

 

[Cactuar]

I use cstick oos for everything but nair obviously..

 

[mers]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=alAYHtk4b3U

Ice is sick as hell. This set was amazing.

 

[OverLord]

yeah, he's too good.. spent like hours in Berlin playing with him, and he doesn't mind teaching you lot of stuff, I got way better this year primarily 'cause of his teachings


but I don't get why his set vs Remen got just 3 matches, it should've been a Bo5 :O

 

[Falcinho]

be afraid of Ice at Genesi2, be very afraid

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VNaDZIrxh-0

 

[KAOSTAR]

I like the way Ice spaces while fading back . Pretty cool lookin.

 

[ChivalRuse]

cactuar or whoever plays fox....

which do you use to aerial out of shield?(like a short hop bair)

Z? Cstick? a buttton?

I have trouble c-sticking to the right. Z works pretty well for me.

 

[_wzrd]

I like the way Ice spaces while fading back . Pretty cool lookin.

it is really useful too.
draws them into your range and you punish them for approaching/trying to approach.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Z-stick your Nairs!