Important Carefully Ask PPMD about the Tiara Guy

[KAOSTAR]

thanks! thats useful crimson.

i notice moves like utilt have iasa frame 32. move total is 37 tho.

generally shud we be holding a direction after our moves to make use of iasa frames just like how we treat dtil?

you should cancel lag when you can. its never bad to be faster.

 

[Smash G 0 D]

Black - M2K
Red - Ken
Green - Cactuar, KM
Blue - Azen
White - Husband

 

[Bob Money]

I've been told that I control space on the stage to the point that people feel that they are near or off the edge almost the entire match.

My spacing strategy is to put the opponent into my effective range, which is slightly further than tipper distance (call this Far Spacing), then when attacking, that effective range changes to try and keep the person at slightly less than tipper distance (Close Spacing).

Using the Far Spacing, your primary objective is to bait the opponent. My biggest tool for baiting is approaching the opponent until I am at the Far Spacing, then stopping. A still opponent is extremely indimidating, and will generally force the other person into action. From there, it's all about knowing how to punish (reaction). Throwing out safe moves, such as sh back and fair, is included in Far Spacing.

With Close Spacing, the primary objective changes to pressuring your opponent until they trap themselves in a few different ways. The first trap is shielding. If you start pushing your opponent and they shield, you have the advantage. You know their options are limited to either jumping out of shield into attack, shield grabbing, dodging, rolling. If they don't use one of these options, their shield will deteriorate and you will have attack advantage as you can easily shield stab or even shield break (nb) if their reaction speed fails them. When they shield, I usually do one of three things, dependent on my current spacing. If I am already aerial, I will choose to either float back into perfect fsmash tipper range, land and wait, or float forward, late fair their shield, then dash through. With good timing (near frame perfect), you can not be shield grabbed, and the opponent will likely try, leaving them at a huge frame disadvantage, and allowing you to punish them however you please. At high level play, it's rare that someone will just run straight and grab as that is why people spot dodge. Dash dance in to grab range to pressure the dodge, back out and then in for the grab.

If you get used to these two spacings, it also becomes much easier to tech chase pretty much anything.


I describe this game, and most fighting games for that matter, as having two main factors. The first is the push and pull game. This is that time when you are approaching and baiting your opponent, waiting for each other to mess up. The second is the punishment game. Low level players will only be able to really punish with individual hits, but at the highest levels, those little gaps that you create using the push and pull game lead into death combos.

The only other parts of smash that are different from most fighting games are the edgeguarding and recovery games, as they don't really fall under either of those catagories.

Amazing post.

 

[booshk]

Amazing post.

agreed. i do these things but there's no way i couldve described that good, lmao where'd you dig that up?

 

[Bob Money]

Ah I fav'ed that post a long time ago, I refer to it once in awhile when I kinda forget how to play marth.

 

[earla]

bob, do u happen to have any other fav'd epic educational posts like that one? please share

 

[Wenbobular]

I recommend this post

http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=4305366&postcount=474

 

[painlord k11]

those posts are awsome and I really wish azen did come back. Azen and chillin team ftw well chu dat and chillin team is still awsome =D

 

[Jun.]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2QwYRfoJaRc&feature=search

sharing this video cause its intense and for the careful playstyle of TANI's marth. He likes to put a close fair and dash back to not get grabbed. very effective!

Props to DJ Mirror for telling me about TANI

 

[DJMirror]

It's proven that the darker your Marth is, the better it is.

Black - M2K
Red - Ken
Green - Cactuar
Blue - Um, PewPewU
White - ........

Black - IB, Mew2King, Heart Break Kid, QueenDVS, Taj, FullMetal and Strawhat (So many black Marth players)
Red - Ken, EK, KDJ, Forward, Falcomist, KillaForCash, Koto, & Tani.
Green - Cactuar & Amsah (Rare kind...Hella special >__>)
Blue - PewPewU, Azen, Niko, Bob$, PKMVodka & Tai (I feel like too many people sleep on Tai & Niko)
White - G$, Fastliketree & Husband (Love watching Husband getting wrecked)

Well these are my favorite players to watch.

Just saying.

 

[Tee ay eye]

Spoiler

Black - IB, Mew2King, Heart Break Kid, QueenDVS, Taj, FullMetal and Strawhat (So many black Marth players)
Red - Ken, EK, KDJ, Forward, Falcomist, KillaForCash, Koto, & Tani.
Green - Cactuar & Amsah (Rare kind...Hella special >__>)
Blue - PewPewU, Azen, Niko, Bob$, PKMVodka &

Tai (I feel like too many people sleep on Tai

Spoiler

& Niko)
White - G$, Fastliketree & Husband (Love watching Husband getting wrecked)

Well these are my favorite players to watch.

Just saying.

I agree wholeheartedly with this entire post.

 

[Vanitas]

Dont forget Diakonos in the green marths lol

 

[Anomic_Punk]

Ether plays red marth, too.

That guy is mad good!

 

[Strong Badam]

not really.

 

[KAOSTAR]

tai is legit. I think he will be on stage one day as a top level marth player.

 

[Tee ay eye]

people should start talking about how awesome taj's marth is

he is too emo about marth nowadays

also LOL @ strong bad's ice cold response to anomic_punk

 

[Strong Badam]

anytime .

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Props to dart for beating chexr twice. I kinda see what u mean about the puff matchup now.

 

[Niko45]

Black - IB, Mew2King, Heart Break Kid, QueenDVS, Taj, FullMetal and Strawhat (So many black Marth players)
Red - Ken, EK, KDJ, Forward, Falcomist, KillaForCash, Koto, & Tani.
Green - Cactuar & Amsah (Rare kind...Hella special >__>)
Blue - PewPewU, Azen, Niko, Bob$, PKMVodka & Tai (I feel like too many people sleep on Tai & Niko)
White - G$, Fastliketree & Husband (Love watching Husband getting wrecked)

Well these are my favorite players to watch.

Just saying.

Thanks for the shoutout. I'd put Diakonos under the green marths, and Tec0 under the black marths. I actually got to play both Tec0 and HBK's marths this weekend which was awesome. And in general, PewPewU is my new must-watch Marth player. That Marth ditto with M2K? Legit as ****. I really like KFC as well, but there's not much footage of his Marth these days.

 

[ChivalRuse]

Props to dart for beating chexr twice. I kinda see what u mean about the puff matchup now.

So you can understand why we think Marth has to sweat that matchup?

 

[Niko45]

Yea, Marth vs Puff is pretty much even until Puff bairs you to death or manages to rest you somehow. Marth has no type of similarly devastating response to these. He can combo Puff to about 40-50% and then after that point every stock is consistently painfully tedious to take. If you can manage to go 4 stocks without getting triple bair'd to edgeguard or shield pressure rested, you might get the W. Good luck with that, though...

It's a different kind of losing matchup than, say, Sheik. Sheik can just trash you for very few mistakes. Puff is never really going to trash Marth, but he's going to consistently beat him.

 

[KAOSTAR]

its even until somebody makes a mistake.

jiggz makes a mistake marth gets a lil baby size punish, on the contrary puffy gets those armageddons. the ability to punish is what keeps puff swangin his ****.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

every matchup sucks if you think of it in those terms. gtfo scrubby trolls

 

[KAOSTAR]

every matchup sucks if you think of it in those terms. gtfo scrubby trolls

this isn't true at all. alot of MUs there is a clear difference between equal and having some sort of advantage.

more extreme, but I don't think bowser needs to make a "mistake" for sheik to tap that ***.

 

[Strong Badam]

yes, bowser needs to make a mistake. if he gets grabbed, then he sucks, cuz he could have frame-perfect up-b'd on reaction to the 1st frame of the grab animation.
duh

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

^ exactly

 

[KirbyKaze]

Sheik pees on Marth.

 

[OverLord]

play Dahean, then tell me

 

[Winston]

Does he still play? I heard he retired O.o

 

[KirbyKaze]

play Dahean, then tell me

Alright .

 

[Tee ay eye]

Is Marth worth using on DK64, Rainbow Cruise, and/or Brinstar, or do you guys think that success would be easier met by putting the same amount of effort learning those stages into learning another character on those stages? Matchups should probably brought into consideration, too.

Rainbow Cruise: Fox, Falco, Falcon? I honestly have no clue who this favors lol
Brinstar: Jigglypuff, Peach, Sheik, Falcon
DK64: Jigglypuff, Peach, Sheik, Falcon, Fox, Falco?

 

[Bob Money]

I like DK64 vs puff, you get edgeguarded less and Jiggs has a hard time approaching the middle of the stage. There are better Counterpicks though obv. Peach live forever on this stage and you can't tipper her through platforms. shiek is impossible to catch and can get the barrel kinda easily if she needs to. Falcon maybe if you dont like small stages and FD/Dreamland are gone.
Spacies ....fox and falco are both okay on DK64, nothing amazing though unless the fox camps the **** out of you.

never pick brinstar with marth he just sucks there, he cant zone at all.
Cruise I can see being decent vs peach to semi camp her and fair her while shes trying to jump around.
Falcon can play the hit and run game and he can tech chase you through out the whole stage cuz he's so fast and jumps a long distance. Falco just has too many chances to live on Rainbow, he can get gimped but like its random. and fox just ***** too hard with the low cielings and camping.

 

[Tee ay eye]

well, OBVIOUSLY i'd never pick any of these stages, bobby

however, because of tournament rulesets, we can only ban ONE of these three abominations

therefore, what should a marth player do when he's forced to one of these stages?

 

[ChivalRuse]

Is Marth really that bad on KJ64?

If you at least learned that stage, you could ban Brinstar vs floaties and Cruise vs fast fallers.

 

[Bob Money]

oops yeah thats what I meant, brinstar is pretty unplayable imo. but fox on rainbow cruise is hell.
I say play it safe on DK64. at the very least its hard for fox and falco is forward b sweet spot there and you cant get wave shined on that stage that well. ill have to try peach on rainbow and camp her with fairs and stuff. that might actually be really good. I cant see peach dieing on dk64 before 200-250 percent though unless you get some fortunate kills. even spiking her on that stage doesnt mean alot. and she can recover through the stage which is tough.

 

[Tee ay eye]

yeah, that sounds like a pretty good info base for playing on those stages with marth.

does anyone think that it's worth putting the effort into a new character for those stages?

 

[skyheart]

mmmmmmmmy charles!!!!

 

[Alukard]

alukard you play samus, leave jk, hyped for RoM3?

LOL ... samus started my interest ... i've played marth in tourney for 90% of my time playing melee ... thats actually how i met cactuar ... played him in marth dittoz at smashtality and a gauntlet ... and yea of course i'm hyped for ROM3 ... hopefully i can get matches in this time ! LOL

Alu Alu Alu

this ***** right here ... ur sooo good *****!

fuking hazz look alike LOL

He ***** my Marth in all of them. He's really effing good at that MU.

i find that hard to believe ... just cuz i know ur not driven to win as much anymore ... i still think m2k can easily beat him if he just accepted the fact that peach is going to get back to the stage if u dont get a kill move on her ... he jumps off too too much ... risky tsk tsk ...

gotta stand in place like cactus

 

[KAOSTAR]

yes, bowser needs to make a mistake. if he gets grabbed, then he sucks, cuz he could have frame-perfect up-b'd on reaction to the 1st frame of the grab animation.
duh

LOL. what an *******!

 

[OverLord]

@ Tai

I don't know.. personally I think that if you don't want to play another character, then don't play him.

Just ban Brinstar cuz is a pain in the ***, KJ64 is not good but you can still use Marth, on RC I suggest being campy with Fox, but I used Marth sometimes, and it worked fine. The only thing is being very safe and defensive in those stages. Camp like a *****.


@ Gustav

yeah he retired, nonetheless he was freakin **** vs Sheiks, i you know the matchup WELL, it's more like even, I'd say 55-45