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Important Carefully Ask PPMD about the Tiara Guy

Europhoria

Europhoria

Smash Lord
Joined
Feb 24, 2007
Messages
1,476
Location
Toronto, Ontario
ArcNatural said:
I feel like Marth can do well in teams providing your teammate is excellent at being aggressive and decent at 2v1.

If you can basically wall/holdstock, and then just hold off your opponent when your teammate edgeguards it seems ok. But your basically banking on that your teammate is better 1 v 1 vs whoever your up against.

I think the only dependable teammate for Marth nowadays is Fox. Most Falcon's play campy nowadays (better in singles, not so sure about doubles) and that defensive quality causes problems. Same with Sheik. Both Falcon and Sheik have potential though, I just think the current metagame singles style is hindering the team mindsets. I feel Jiggs is too slow along with Marth being slowish causing too many 2v1 setups vs faster teams.

Falco might do well with Marth but I feel like Falco just has better teammate options.
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I think Puff is the best team mate. I've always loved teaming with Puff though. It's so easy to protect a rest happy Puff like PKM or Darc and the killing power they bring is un matched; it feels like Puff basically wins the game for you if you can keep them alive and throw out random moves in their directions to create lag/rest chances. It's too easy, you just need to grab someone around the Jiggs that's above like 15% for a free kill, it doesn't matter if you take a 50 damage combo for it either because you're trading moderate amounts of damage (at worst) for an entire stock. It's not about Puff being slow cause she's not following you, you stay close to her. I can post a lot about this lol

Fox is good, Sheik has to be Kirbykaze or equivalently skilled Sheik at aggressive play/teams combos (defensive Sheik makes this team awful)

Saying what I bolded is horrible, it's basically saying Marth is good at the support role if your partner can grossly carry the team. Ganon, Falco, Sheik, Peach, Falcon, Puff, even Fox all play better support roles then this doof
 
ArcNatural

ArcNatural

Banned ( ∫x, δx Points)
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Europhoria said:
I think Puff is the best team mate. I've always loved teaming with Puff though. It's so easy to protect a rest happy Puff like PKM or Darc and the killing power they bring is un matched; it feels like Puff basically wins the game for you if you can keep them alive and throw out random moves in their directions to create lag/rest chances. It's too easy, you just need to grab someone around the Jiggs that's above like 15% for a free kill, it doesn't matter if you take a 50 damage combo for it either because you're trading moderate amounts of damage (at worst) for an entire stock. It's not about Puff being slow cause she's not following you, you stay close to her. I can post a lot about this lol

Fox is good, Sheik has to be Kirbykaze or equivalently skilled Sheik at aggressive play/teams combos (defensive Sheik makes this team awful)

Saying what I bolded is horrible, it's basically saying Marth is good at the support role if your partner can grossly carry the team. Ganon, Falco, Sheik, Peach, Falcon, Puff, even Fox all play better support roles then this doof
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When Marth starts breaking top 5 at major tournaments again when he ISN'T the support role character then I'll believe you. But as it stands the best to teams using Marth (while old) were Ken/Isai and Chillin/Azen and both teams Marth was the support role. Even in your team (Marth/Jiggs) Marth is the support. It may not be pure support (other characters do it better) he is still mainly a support role.

Also, it sounds like your depending on the Jiggs to **** off Marth's grabs and when your opponents try to edgeguard/**** Marth. Sounds like team carrying to me. Because if your counting on these things to happen and your Jiggs teammate can't get these punishes, Marth certainly isn't going to be able to step up and take over that role. Especially against teams that he can't edgeguard effectively.

And Marth IS good at the support role if your partner can carry the team. So I don't know what your refuting. If you think Marth is successful at being aggressive then ok, but I don't think your saying he ISN'T good in that case. Who wouldn't be good in this situation?

And all the characters you mentioned above for the most part do play better support roles. Which is why Marth isn't as good as those characters in for pure support (maybe even with Ganon/Falco/Peach in certain matchups). I'm not being very precise here as I do think some of them he may or may not be better than, but there are clearly better support oriented characters. Marth has the benefit of being slightly faster and quicker to recover or not at all. Which gives him the ability to be slightly more aggressive and stay on top of the other team more to create more pressure on split second 2v1 situations due to his range and grab/tipper possibilities.

I don't think Marth is horrible at teams, but there are reasons he isn't among the elite. Inability to be pure support or pure offensive without causing problems for your teammate. As other characters (namely: Jiggs/Sheik/Fox for both, Peach for support). I'm sure there are other characters but these ones are clearly better overall than Marth in these roles.

Marth's best utility in teams seems to be either if you try to edgeguard him he can stall pretty well to give opportunities for teammate, and his ability to play the priority game and basically force your opponent to try to 2v1 your teammate, which, as long as you and your teammate are prepared for that scenario is ideal for causing tipper/grab punishment havoc.

Which is why imho opinion that your partner being decent at 2v1 (good reaction time to effectively fight or stay safe against two opponents with you dealing pressure from behind) and being able to at least be even 1v1 is important. I guess what I'm saying is, if Marth is slightly worse 1v1 it's still ok as long as your partner is even, but if your partner isn't at least even with the 1v1 situations I don't see any team with Marth being the best player (in terms of you doing well in the match where your partner is losing) ever placing top 5 or winning in a national tournament.
 
Europhoria

Europhoria

Smash Lord
Joined
Feb 24, 2007
Messages
1,476
Location
Toronto, Ontario
Oh no, don't confuse me. Marth is definitely the "support role". But Jiggs just can't win 2v1 and carry the team in the sense like a technical Fox could *without* any real help from Marth. She can protect herself in a 2v1 if that's what you were getting at, but she needs you to do a lot of work for Rest to carry you to victory against better players. The strategy depends on you keeping her alive and forcing rest chances. Besides, who better to be aggressive character on a team then one that can't be combo'd or punished. It feels like a different mind set to me. You just need to be ready to drop combos, edge guards, or whatever to go save Puff/go force free rests.

I think the best teams are like Falco/Fox/Sheik + Jiggs lol. I've always wanted to see like Dope or Unknown522's Falco + Darc/Pkmvodka. I think it would be hilariously broken. It's like Marth protecting them Puff, except you can do it from 100 yards away while edge guarding someone at the same time.

I think Marth's strength in teams is his ability to hold stocks for a long time (recovery/fairly good shield game), and keep his partner alive/set up damage for his partner. Whether you do that by extending a combo, or just f-throwing someone into their **** doesn't matter. Shield game feels so important in teams, especially with Marth. Sometimes I feel like all you can do is shield through all the chaos and then try to work something. Being able to escape and deal the pressure and chaos is nice, it lets you get free rest set ups.

I think the issue is his killing power is god awful, and his best **** is kind of slow and fairly punishable. In a double fox happy environment that sucks. I dunno, my real message here to everyone is play Falco/Jiggs in teams. It's not like Marth is gonna do well in teams ever lol
 
G

genkaku

Guest
Does Marth's Dair have a meteor hitbox? 'cause that CPU just canceled it.
 
Tee ay eye

Tee ay eye

Smash Hero
Joined
Jun 1, 2008
Messages
5,635
Location
AZ
which way would a marth want to smash DI in order to escape the second hit of Falcon's nair?
 
Fortress | Sveet

Fortress | Sveet

▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀
Joined
Dec 21, 2005
Messages
16,256
Location
Northern IL
youll get kneed no matter what you DI except if you DI up in which case he has to uair you. I've played the MU with chris enough to know this. I try to SDI every hit in the combo to escape to my maximum potential, and i think i'm pretty good at it... if you're not good at it either practice it in friendlies or DI some other way.
 
Dart!

Dart!

Smash Master
Joined
May 12, 2010
Messages
3,755
Location
East Peoria, IL
OverLord said:
Dart had definitely understand how this game works.

against Falcon:

- pick brinstar and don't get hit.
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NO, you have no go to finish moves off of lava...you get lava'd then knee'd, he's gonna punish you too hard.

rainbow or dk64 are better choices
 
earla

earla

Smash Lord
Joined
Aug 29, 2008
Messages
1,422
what tips have you guys got on avoiding getting grabbed by ic's?

at the moment im spacing fairs + dairs. sometimes i get blizzard'd to grabbed = my stock gone.
 
Jun.

Jun.

Smash Lord
Joined
Dec 17, 2007
Messages
1,797
Location
UC San Diego
earla said:
what tips have you guys got on avoiding getting grabbed by ic's?

at the moment im spacing fairs + dairs. sometimes i get blizzard'd to grabbed = my stock gone.
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you space dtilts, ftilts, even sideB's and utilts on the ground. Never grab ic's.
 
ChivalRuse

ChivalRuse

Smash Hero
Joined
Jun 13, 2007
Messages
8,413
Location
College Park, MD
earla said:
what tips have you guys got on avoiding getting grabbed by ic's?

at the moment im spacing fairs + dairs. sometimes i get blizzard'd to grabbed = my stock gone.
Click to expand...
A lot of ICs players telegraph their desyncs. If they roll, spotdodge, or dash dance, you should know to be especially wary of blizzards.
 
Tee ay eye

Tee ay eye

Smash Hero
Joined
Jun 1, 2008
Messages
5,635
Location
AZ
i usually use dtilt to poke ice climbers, but it IS punishable.

if they try to punish it, you can space fair, nair, or dair to beat their approach

sorta

im not that good at this MU, though, but ive been learning it in the past 2 weeks

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b2Qy4tOjeTc

this vid helped me

Tony's amazing vs ice climbers because he has very extensive experience with Wobbles.

He's beaten fly amanita, and he beat Chu at Ken's Bi-Weekly in 06 or 07.
 
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