Important Carefully Ask PPMD about the Tiara Guy

[TheCrimsonBlur]

Those are some great vids Tai, some of the best for learning the matchup. Another great set of vids are M2ks friendlies with Nintendude at APEX. Here's Part 1, Part 2, and Part 3.

By the end, you'll understand what M2K is trying to accomplish in the matchup. Its a really different style than Taj's but similarly effective. Essentially, it'll teach you how good Marth's platform camp game really is.

 

[mers]

obvious troll is obvious

You mean me? I was being serious. I always get ****ed up by Falcon on DK64, and I assumed that was how most people did on that stage.

Is that supposed to be good for me? What should I be doing to abuse the stage and not get destroyed by Falcon running circles around me there?

 

[Jun.]

camp top platforms and piss him off until falcon makes a mistake and do the usual punish.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

with marf? maybe if you played peach or puff or spacies. I dont think its possible for someone to run-away camp falcon.

 

[puff ball]

so is anyone a fan of megaman or pokemon

 

[Jun.]

with marf? maybe if you played peach or puff or spacies. I dont think its possible for someone to run-away camp falcon.

you'd be surprised how dumb dk64 can be

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

im more surprised at how dumb some people can be

 

[TheCrimsonBlur]

Um. Maybe you know something i don't but doesn't Falcon have like one of the best uairs in the game + incredible mobility...

Marth's platform camp game is good but...not that good. You can't camp Falcon...

 

[OverLord]

@ Reverend: it wasn't referred to you..

Dart was trolling (I hope) saying DK64 and RC are good against Falcon.. and you answered being serious.. then I said, troll is obvious..


don't play Falcon on weird stages..

 

[Jun.]

all sets vs falcon will somehow end up on yoshi story or FoD anyways. Falcon is screwed.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

i'd rather go to FD vs falcon than yoshis these days.

 

[Winston]

I always do bad on FD in that matchup since I don't know how to follow up uthrows consistently without platforms.

Are there rules of thumb for when uthrow combos into stuff on Falcon?

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

the rule of thumb is you want him off the stage not above you.

 

[TheCrimsonBlur]

Eh, uthrow between 55-72ish for fsmash. uthrow utilt/uair works at the 40s too. Otherwise, throwing him towards the edge is usually the best decision. I find techchasing him on reaction pretty easy so overall grabs tend to ****. Throwing him up at 0-16 rather than down/forward makes the techchase slightly easier too.

 

[JBM falcon08]

Falcon gets ***** by marth.

Its actually practical to grab him a whole stock and edgeguard.

discuss.

 

[TheCrimsonBlur]

This is a good example of what you can do with on-stage grabs vs. Falcon. Note that he could have fsmashed instead of naired at the end.

 

[Teczer0]

Falcon can actually jump out of upthrow before uptilt connects btw.

 

[TheCrimsonBlur]

Falcon can actually jump out of upthrow before uptilt connects btw.

Yea I probably should have mentioned that

But yea, if he jumps, uair. uair is a fantastic setup so you can get some pretty easy to do zero-to-deaths on Falcon.

Of course, you don't want to be uthrowing too much in the mid % (except at the 60s...i pretty much always uthrow at the 60s for the fsmash), gotta keep them weary of the techchase too.

 

[Teczer0]

Personally I prefer fair at midish percents. And if they try to DJ out of it I just follow them and try to regrab them.

And fair lets you connect an Fsmash iirc. I wonder if uptilt would connect at that range.....

 

[Dart!]

obvious troll is obvious

r you kidding me? i was serious.

DK64 works if you're good at tech chasing and gimping. rainbow works if you're good at stage control and stage awareness, brinstar is also good for stage awareness but the lava is gonna get you ****ed. hard.

EDIT: note that i didn't mean DK64 is good for marth and neither is rainbow. but in the event that i had to play on one of these three i'd rather do rainbow or DK64 than brinstar...unless i was feeling pretty ballsy with lava combos

 

[OverLord]

lol every stage is good if you don't get hit then..

the point is just that all those stages are good for Falcon, why should I counterpick a stage where my opponent feel comfortable?

 

[Dart!]

I wasn't debating whether you should CP it or not. i was talking about if you had to play there for whatever reason. read my edit

 

[OverLord]

ah ok cool

 

[Winston]

the rule of thumb is you want him off the stage not above you.

Eh, uthrow between 55-72ish for fsmash. uthrow utilt/uair works at the 40s too. Otherwise, throwing him towards the edge is usually the best decision. I find techchasing him on reaction pretty easy so overall grabs tend to ****. Throwing him up at 0-16 rather than down/forward makes the techchase slightly easier too.

Yeah, I try to get him offstage whenever I can, and I techchase on reaction as much as I can. However I feel there are situations where throw towards the edge is not strictly the best option.

if you are near the middle of a big stage and he's at middle percents, I feel like he can DI the throw away and make it difficult to cover the tech away.

depending on the spacing from the edge, he might be able to DI away and slide off to escape.

I think these situations are where adding the mixup possibility of uthrow adds value to your f/dthrows and increases your efficiency overall.

by the way, is bthrow useful for setting up techchasing?

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

the reason i dont have a problem throwing them to the edge is because once they are there they are trapped. Simple walling tactics will force them to break through you or escape past you via rolls or jumps. On FD there is no platform escape and roll escape is pretty simple to react to.

I realized lately that marth's ftilt is exceptionally good at dealing with falcon. Like a longer but slower dtilt, ftilt also stuffs air moves which was always a big problem for me

 

[Dart!]

ftilt also gimps falcon alot harder than fsmash because it won't launch them nearly straight up so they can falcon kyick double jump up b again. unless they expect it, it should raep them. if spaced properly on their unsweetspotted recovery

 

[ChivalRuse]

I love u-throwing with Marth. Not so much on FD though.

 

[Dart!]

upthrow full jump auto cancel nair on platform tip fsmash on falcon feels so good.

 

[makoforce]

ftilt also gimps falcon alot harder than fsmash because it won't launch them nearly straight up so they can falcon kyick double jump up b again. unless they expect it, it should raep them. if spaced properly on their unsweetspotted recovery

i never heard of a sweetspotting falcon lol, but not to sound like a noob or anything doesnt a tipped fair send people up

 

[Dart!]

tippered fair yes not ftilt

 

[Tee ay eye]

what reaches down furthest: f-smash, neutral B, d-tilt, or shffl dair?

put them in order, preferrably.

 

[ChivalRuse]

what reaches down furthest: f-smash, neutral B, d-tilt, or shffl dair?

put them in order, preferrably.

How does this work for you?

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=11073667

 

[Tee ay eye]

It works well for me

 

[Teczer0]

If you do it from midair, Shield breaker hits ridiculously low.

That hitbox thing missed marth's shield breaker in midair =(

 

[SwiftBass]

If you do it from midair, Shield breaker hits ridiculously low.

That hitbox thing missed marth's shield breaker in midair =(

OMG i am requesting that gif so hard right now. THAT IS A MUST SEE.

 

[Winston]

If the shield breaker is grounded though, I think it's

(lowest) dair - shield breaker/dtilt - fsmash

shield breaker has the advantage of staying out a bit longer than dtilt if you want to hit those tricky firefox angles

 

[Jun.]

using shield breaker correctly is such an art.

I wish i knew =[

 

[Winston]

Just spam it in friendlies until you know when and when not to do it =)

also, do most characters have a way to get back from the edge to the stage safely vs Marth?

 

[ThePoet]

everyone does, just depends on how your guarding.

 

[Winston]

Right, I figured that's the case, but some specifics would be nice. Getting back onstage from the edge/keeping them off the stage from the edge is like the worst part of my game ><

(in general, but it's especially problematic vs marth)