mlorenzo
Smash Journeyman
i agree with darky-sama the matchup is 35-65 or 40-60
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Captain Falcon's Match-Up Database! | (General Discussion); UPDATED: April 18th, 2010
- Thread starter Darky-Sama
- Start date
- Status
SuSa
Banned via Administration
Where's the next SoCal tourney you are attending?
D
Deleted member
Guest
Well i attend all the tournies in san diego if you ever come down for one XD
Salem
Smash Champion
OMG
I can contact Bunnyma also Via talking to his bro, maybe I can do a better job then you and use that to get the match-up ratio I want. >_>
But later on first, cause I need another day's energy for all Falcon.
Darky-Sama
Smash Lord
You should. Me and Bunnyma played like... 332395tp84vm matches before the playoffs because he needed ZSS practice for when he played PatG. Then I started using my Peach, Wario and Falcon for awhile to get their training in. It's actually pretty good practice playing against him. lol.
Sovereign
Game Reaper
The only amazing Snakes that knew what they were doing when I played them, were SuSa(online) and Infern Angelis from God Kais(offline).
Snake's got too many tools for this matchup to be won by a pro vs. a pro. It's possible to win, but very unlikely, if both players have equal skill. I managed to beat SuSa on Lylat, got wrecked on SV, and I forget the last stage we played on, but he won the overall set. He didn't say much about lag, so I think it was cool, as I had no problem with our match.
Infern was different, as he applied C-4 and mine pressure all in one, something that I didn't see SuSa do much of. Tilts ruined everything I did, from my own air attacks and specials, to whatever I could pull out...
25-75
is my ratio.
Snake's got too many tools for this matchup to be won by a pro vs. a pro. It's possible to win, but very unlikely, if both players have equal skill. I managed to beat SuSa on Lylat, got wrecked on SV, and I forget the last stage we played on, but he won the overall set. He didn't say much about lag, so I think it was cool, as I had no problem with our match.
Infern was different, as he applied C-4 and mine pressure all in one, something that I didn't see SuSa do much of. Tilts ruined everything I did, from my own air attacks and specials, to whatever I could pull out...
25-75
is my ratio.
†Slader7†
Smash Ace
Flame is correct, if both players are in equal skills, Falcon will suffer horribly.
While the Snakes I've played make the match up around 30-70, I do believe that the match up is 25-75
Snake has too many options and Falcon has only a handful. Sure you can Knee snake's recovery but the problem is getting him offstage.
While the Snakes I've played make the match up around 30-70, I do believe that the match up is 25-75
Snake has too many options and Falcon has only a handful. Sure you can Knee snake's recovery but the problem is getting him offstage.
D
Deleted member
Guest
Bait the grenade and grab. For real.
Spotdodge gets by simply running up shielding and grabbing the spotdodge.
Z grabbing while they hold a nade is dumb, foward tilt is stupid, but really, theres not really any top level american falcons, and theres really no amazing european snakes (i went to europe so im not making any blatent assumptions)
Spotdodge gets by simply running up shielding and grabbing the spotdodge.
Z grabbing while they hold a nade is dumb, foward tilt is stupid, but really, theres not really any top level american falcons, and theres really no amazing european snakes (i went to europe so im not making any blatent assumptions)
Red-Blue
Was selected randomly
You obviously went to ALL of Europe and you obviously played ALL Snake players. Totally.
gameandwatch 4 Lyfe
Smash Journeyman
europe sucks anyway.
i could see 65:35
falcon has options, snake has better ones, but this isn't unwinnable (im assuming 70:30 or worse is unwinnable)
you guys really think this is an unwinnable matchup?? you're all crazy
i could see 65:35
falcon has options, snake has better ones, but this isn't unwinnable (im assuming 70:30 or worse is unwinnable)
you guys really think this is an unwinnable matchup?? you're all crazy
Darky-Sama
Smash Lord
I can understand 30:70 as well.
As we've said; a professional Snake vs. a professional Falcon:
The Snake is obviously going to have a much easier time winning. More tools to his disposal, projectiles, priority and better killing potential. That doesn't mean the match-up is nearly as pathetic as people are saying.
20:80 is pushing it though.
As we've said; a professional Snake vs. a professional Falcon:
The Snake is obviously going to have a much easier time winning. More tools to his disposal, projectiles, priority and better killing potential. That doesn't mean the match-up is nearly as pathetic as people are saying.
20:80 is pushing it though.
Yes, in fact, it does.
And 70-30 would make snake easier as sheik, which isnt true.
Falcon vs snake 80-20, snake's advantage.
Darky-Sama
Smash Lord
That's discussing a whole different character.
Sheik has a forward tilt that destroys fast fallers.
Pikachu has a chaingrab that destroys fast fallers.
Peach has a chaingrab -> ftilt -> ftilt -> utilt that destroys fast fallers.
Snake however, does not.
Snake can't guarantee a 60%+ combo either.
- - -
Disregarding that though, I do see your point. Snake shouldn't be considered easier than Sheik. But considering the advantages over Falcon that both of their move sets provide, that seems to be what we're looking at. Not far from each other, at the very least.
Sheik has a forward tilt that destroys fast fallers.
Pikachu has a chaingrab that destroys fast fallers.
Peach has a chaingrab -> ftilt -> ftilt -> utilt that destroys fast fallers.
Snake however, does not.
Snake can't guarantee a 60%+ combo either.
- - -
Disregarding that though, I do see your point. Snake shouldn't be considered easier than Sheik. But considering the advantages over Falcon that both of their move sets provide, that seems to be what we're looking at. Not far from each other, at the very least.
No, but snake easier, or just as hard as sheik isnt right.
Sheik = 70-30
Diddy = 75-25
Snake = 80 -20
MK = 90-10
It all adds up.
teluoborg
Smash Otter
Knee I like you a lot but you can't use the sheik MU ratio that you made up yourself as a valuable argument.
No matter how right you are about it you can't, and we're not going to discuss the Sheik matchup just to settle the Snake ratio.
....
..
...
Well we could, but that would be silly.
Anyway to me the match up is hard, very hard, but not unwinnable.
So it's nowhere below 30:70.
No matter how right you are about it you can't, and we're not going to discuss the Sheik matchup just to settle the Snake ratio.
....
..
...
Well we could, but that would be silly.
Anyway to me the match up is hard, very hard, but not unwinnable.
So it's nowhere below 30:70.
As you, too, say I'm right about the ratios I listed, I made a very good point. (And if you didnt mean it that way, doesnt take away that waht I posted in the post before this one is, indeed, correct)
If you list snake as 70-30, snake's advantage, alot of future matchups will turn out to be wrong, as they some clearly harder matchups than others will have the same ratio as said others, as the times five fits in fifty is limited and it has to be divided by 38 playable characters as correct as possible.
Snake 80-20 gives the best idea of the snake matchup, and if you look at this ratio next to all other ratios in the future, it will make sense.
And you have to look at all matchup ratios when giving a character a matchup ratio, or else it will all make no sense when we are done giving every matchup its ratio.
Snake vs falcon, 80-20, MK's advantage.
Yeah, what he sa- *trips*Snake gets pretty pwned by
People need to dashdance -> grab more. ALmost as good as sonic's.
SAKURAAAAAAIIIII
Sakurai: you cant has grab
teluoborg
Smash Otter
Then you must see with Darky to modify the actual "matchup ratio translation" that we can read in the MU index (and that I'm taking as a reference when I give ratios).
And by "modify" I mean adapt it to a character as bad as Falcon, like what the Ganon boards refer to when they have to choose between 10:90 and 0:100.
That's the smartest thing to do right now cause else we'll keep arguing on different ratios with the same reasoning behind.
To me it's "difficult but winnable", and the index says "difficult but winnable" is 30:70. If the index changes the ratios'll change.
And if very different matchups have very similar ratios it's because ratios don't specify the nature of the difficulty. That's why ratios suck if there's no database beside (and also why we shouldn't be arguing so much on numbers).
Sorry for the content of thjs post, I'm tired.
And by "modify" I mean adapt it to a character as bad as Falcon, like what the Ganon boards refer to when they have to choose between 10:90 and 0:100.
That's the smartest thing to do right now cause else we'll keep arguing on different ratios with the same reasoning behind.
To me it's "difficult but winnable", and the index says "difficult but winnable" is 30:70. If the index changes the ratios'll change.
And if very different matchups have very similar ratios it's because ratios don't specify the nature of the difficulty. That's why ratios suck if there's no database beside (and also why we shouldn't be arguing so much on numbers).
Sorry for the content of thjs post, I'm tired.
your extremely stupid
im a top level world falcon i just dislike brawl
that and silentspectre and hax will **** anyone up with falcon in brawl
no, getting snake offstage is not that difficult.
yeah its hard but its not IMPOSSIBLE
are you getting your chars mixed up? if that why your ratios are so wrong?
gameandwatch 4 Lyfe
Smash Journeyman
For The Last Time You Cant Judge A Matchup Based On Position On The Tier List
knee, you keep saying the ratio falls in line, but that isnt how it works brother.
for example:
DDD vs...
MK: 35:65
Snake:55:45
Diddy: 50:50
Zelda: 45:55
matchups can be all over the place dude. (im not saying those are correct, but theyre close enough. you get my point...)
knee, you keep saying the ratio falls in line, but that isnt how it works brother.
for example:
DDD vs...
MK: 35:65
Snake:55:45
Diddy: 50:50
Zelda: 45:55
matchups can be all over the place dude. (im not saying those are correct, but theyre close enough. you get my point...)
No. Though what you quoted was my bad, as snake aint no MK ofc lulz. But the ratios I provided are correct.
Go get a person of the corresponding character board. They'll tell you in more detail, like te lucario board did for lucario.
Ofc it isnt based on position on the tier list.
Why would I've put sheik as such a bad matchup if I was doing that '-_-
The ratios I provided are based on falcons matchups.
And saying matchups can be all over the place sounds plain idiotic.
lolyoshi70-30MK60-40Falcon60-40Link-80-20lolol
no, man.
Why do you capitalize every first letter of the words in the first sentence of your post?
If you wanted to make it stand out, just bold it or summin'.
lol, no offense to anybody but other character boards dont really do anything considering not really anyone good (besides me and lionman and willz) play falcon competitivly enough to merit enough people having legit matchup experience
snake is not 80-20.
70-30, still a little high but its much closer to correct
yoshi is like... 60-40, MK 85-15, falcon 100-0, link 55-45
although i agree with this part of the post, matchups arent usually EVERYWHERE, but there are variations, just look at diddy, he loses bad to luigi peach and marth, but goes near even with mk and snake
D
Deleted member
Guest
lol
I dunno who you are (besides on this board), nor have i seen you place well, but i could be wrong.
And being one of the best falcons does not mean you are a top level falcon, if you mained MK you would not be one of the best Mks in the US i would guess.
SS is not that good, havent seen hax.
Dayu and champ are the best ive seen/played.
Yoshi matchup is 50:50 btw, or slightly in falcons favor, you just gotta know how to play it
dayu?
champ was awesome but he doesnt play anymore
i USED place top 12/35-40 fairly regularly back when i entered it.
i sucked back then.
im going to enter a tourny sat though and make 1st, gonna beat kismet and biglou and reflex easy
im also falcon ditto mming reflex saturday unelss he doesnt make it
];
As you agree with the second part of my post, you sorta agree with the first part, too =P
Take that back. SS is beast.
D
Deleted member
Guest
Fine then
But Ive seen both and Dayu is way better =)
But Ive seen both and Dayu is way better =)
gameandwatch 4 Lyfe
Smash Journeyman
it seemed like you kept making the argument that snake should be 80:20 cuz mk, diddy, and others were very bad, that seemed really stupid to me. i guess i misinterpreted what you were saying. my bad.
Darky-Sama
Smash Lord
Personally, I don't see Diddy as a big problem either. If you know how to jump cancel glide toss, you can banana lock him too. Not nearly as easy as Diddy can, but hey, it's still possible. Falcon's projectile control is sexy.
Back to Snake though.
Taking the official ratio legend, 30:70 does seem about right.
I didn't just make that up either, it's one used on almost ALL the boards.
Lets not conclude a ratio yet though, we need to discuss more.
-Snake's NAIR wrecks our air game.
-Snake's TILTS wreck our ground game.
Both can be mindgamed and punished through faking out and baiting.
Agreeable? Yesz?
Back to Snake though.
Taking the official ratio legend, 30:70 does seem about right.
I didn't just make that up either, it's one used on almost ALL the boards.
Lets not conclude a ratio yet though, we need to discuss more.
-Snake's NAIR wrecks our air game.
-Snake's TILTS wreck our ground game.
Both can be mindgamed and punished through faking out and baiting.
Agreeable? Yesz?
Sovereign
Game Reaper
Darky, the problem is, you can't include mindgames/baiting in a match-up discussion, because that makes it personal.
So simply don't include mindgames/baiting in match-up discussions because it won't help any general Falcon player play better against a Snake. You can tell them what to look out for, but you can't tell them how to mindgame/bait for anything. They'll have to figure that on their own. That's why the ratios for Falcon are usually estimated as they are, simply because you don't apply the what ifs/mindgame/baiting aspects. Your own personal experience will shift the match-up in your favor as you play, which is why opinions will always differ in these discussions.
So simply don't include mindgames/baiting in match-up discussions because it won't help any general Falcon player play better against a Snake. You can tell them what to look out for, but you can't tell them how to mindgame/bait for anything. They'll have to figure that on their own. That's why the ratios for Falcon are usually estimated as they are, simply because you don't apply the what ifs/mindgame/baiting aspects. Your own personal experience will shift the match-up in your favor as you play, which is why opinions will always differ in these discussions.
teluoborg
Smash Otter
This is true. But there is still a way to include the baiting/mindgame possibilities in an objective way.
Let's say that Falcon's mobility is a useful tool in this matchup because it allows Falcon to approach Snake quickly when he is not in a neutral position.
@Darky : Nair doesn't **** that bad. It can be SDI'd and punished in the landing lag. I'm far more afraid of Bair or an instant nade pull.
Oh yeah, and let's talk about the stages you should CP against Snake :
-RC of course if he doesn't ban it. Still be cautious in the first part of the stage cause he can have a good control on it.
-JJ maybe, since Snake will mainly kill with utilt and falcon will use horizontal KO moves. And the water screws his recovery more than yours.
-Norfair seems a bad idea cause Snake's control is too good on small platforms and Norfair is made of them.
-Delfino ? I think the stage changing makes Snake's camp harder, but I'm not sure.
I don't remember all the stages with high ceiling.
Let's say that Falcon's mobility is a useful tool in this matchup because it allows Falcon to approach Snake quickly when he is not in a neutral position.
@Darky : Nair doesn't **** that bad. It can be SDI'd and punished in the landing lag. I'm far more afraid of Bair or an instant nade pull.
Oh yeah, and let's talk about the stages you should CP against Snake :
-RC of course if he doesn't ban it. Still be cautious in the first part of the stage cause he can have a good control on it.
-JJ maybe, since Snake will mainly kill with utilt and falcon will use horizontal KO moves. And the water screws his recovery more than yours.
-Norfair seems a bad idea cause Snake's control is too good on small platforms and Norfair is made of them.
-Delfino ? I think the stage changing makes Snake's camp harder, but I'm not sure.
I don't remember all the stages with high ceiling.
You overrate falcon to an extent its not funny anymore.
And as falcon doesnt have anything to underrate, I am not underrating falcon. (Mostly because faking out, and baiting cannot be a part of a MU discussion, partially due to the opponent beeing able to do the same, and falcon has the worst moveset in brawl, so in that department there isnt anything to underrate, which doesnt help falcon, either.)
Vs a Diddy at the top of its metagame (ADHD) you will not get nanner combo's in. Or when you are very lucky, maybe one.
Get ADHD in here, so he can explain to you in more detail how you are wrong. (Yes I'm lazy. Sorry.)
And mindgames can not ba a part of a MU discussion. Snake just wrecks our air and ground game. period.
You are forgetting falcon can only put 0% pressure on snake.
An approaching falcon wont scare a snake player, so baiting is futile in high level play.
The snake can completely play his/her own game, and still two stock you.
And when you do get a hit in, falcon has very limited options to follow up, as snake wrecks our air and ground game.
And on top of that, snake can take a hit and still leave falcon with more damage on him after the close combat, and then he can continue his long ranged attacks (nades, DACUS possibly, depends on how far away falcon is and, and his missles).
And then when he gets close to you, or when you eventually come close to him (again), he wrecks your ground game with his tilts, throws and the C4's/mines he set up while you were at a distance.
Falcon cant approach snake. Leaving falcons pressure percentage on snake at 0% (Also due to the other reasons I've written in this post.)
80-20, snake's advantage.
smashkng
Smash Lord
Or if CF gives some trouble from close, Snake can just escape from him with DACUS and continue with camping. CF's **** on offstage Snake doesn't prevent Snake from making the matchup near unwinnable.
Agreed being so hard for Falcon. I have ***** few who thought it's easy to play with Falcon against Snake. Snake beats in almost everything: priority (by far), range, attack speed, power, much easier time landing kills, weight, projectile camping and DACUS escaping really makes the matchup so impossible, stage control, and damage in attacks. This is way too unfair for Captain Falcon.
Darky-Sama
Smash Lord
@ Sacr3d S3raph1m;
Speaking the obvious. That depends solely on the players. But take this into consideration then. Punishing and baiting; from my perspective. Getting close enough to Snake so he can't hit you, and watch his reaction.
That's basically a mind game. They might expect you to try and hit them and attempt a tilt or to pull up a shield, which gives you time to punish there after. Not easy at all to perform on Snake, since his Ftilt and Utilt have about an extra character space of range, but certainly not impossible.
Then, what if he doesn't fall for it? You have plenty of options. Spaced smashes, short hop NAIRs, anything to get a reaction from them or cause them to dodge or attack back.
You can't say that mind games are NOT a key aspect to any player's success. This isn't Melee, you can't stay offensive and expect to pull off a zero to death combo with Falcon without failure. Switching your play style to throw them off mid-match is the only way to assure any advantage with Falcon in nine-tenths of his match-ups.
@ Knee;
Did I say that Diddy isn't going to own Falcon? No, I didn't. People seem to stress way too much over Falcon's meta game and how pathetic he is. All I'm simply saying is - - is that he has much more potential in some of these match-ups than you agree to give him credit for. It's sad, really.
We all know Falcon doesn't have an advantage. Doesn't mean we can't point out the small things Falcon DOES have to manage with to aid him. That's the whole point for the match-up thread. :/
Speaking the obvious. That depends solely on the players. But take this into consideration then. Punishing and baiting; from my perspective. Getting close enough to Snake so he can't hit you, and watch his reaction.
That's basically a mind game. They might expect you to try and hit them and attempt a tilt or to pull up a shield, which gives you time to punish there after. Not easy at all to perform on Snake, since his Ftilt and Utilt have about an extra character space of range, but certainly not impossible.
Then, what if he doesn't fall for it? You have plenty of options. Spaced smashes, short hop NAIRs, anything to get a reaction from them or cause them to dodge or attack back.
You can't say that mind games are NOT a key aspect to any player's success. This isn't Melee, you can't stay offensive and expect to pull off a zero to death combo with Falcon without failure. Switching your play style to throw them off mid-match is the only way to assure any advantage with Falcon in nine-tenths of his match-ups.
@ Knee;
Did I say that Diddy isn't going to own Falcon? No, I didn't. People seem to stress way too much over Falcon's meta game and how pathetic he is. All I'm simply saying is - - is that he has much more potential in some of these match-ups than you agree to give him credit for. It's sad, really.
We all know Falcon doesn't have an advantage. Doesn't mean we can't point out the small things Falcon DOES have to manage with to aid him. That's the whole point for the match-up thread. :/
What you do is overrating falcon.
Pointing out what he can do is fine, but it isnt anything new, so it wont change the ratios of falcons matchups in falcons favor.
Edit: In your reaction to Sacred Seraphim, you overrate falcon again.
You forget that snake beats falcon in range, too.
And mindgames are a part of brawl, yes, but aren't used in Mu discussion due to the fact they are to abstract to list and aren't character specific.
Darky-Sama
Smash Lord
I never said it would change things. It's just things I feel need to be added. And I'm not overrating Falcon. I'm simply pointing out the blunt facts that are standing up for my reasoning. Things that aren't the bland, common knowledge that EVERYONE should already know.
Like I said, we all know Falcon isn't going to have the advantage, but the least we can do here in the match-up thread is give some advice or tips to HELP players understand the match-up better, and what they can do to get around some of the common and more... harmful things to destroy our frail metagame.
You make it sound like I'm deciding things for the thread.
I'm simply giving my opinion, just as you are.
Let others speak their minds; then we'll come to a conclusion.
The discussion is still Snake.
Like I said, we all know Falcon isn't going to have the advantage, but the least we can do here in the match-up thread is give some advice or tips to HELP players understand the match-up better, and what they can do to get around some of the common and more... harmful things to destroy our frail metagame.
You make it sound like I'm deciding things for the thread.
I'm simply giving my opinion, just as you are.
Let others speak their minds; then we'll come to a conclusion.
The discussion is still Snake.
Sovereign
Game Reaper
My best advice for anyone trying to learn a match-up against a certain character is to simply play as that character.
I play with just about the entire cast in Brawl, and no some to most of the ins and outs to their styles, and know what to avoid, and what to bait and blah blah blah.
Most Falcons or players lose to certain characters because of these three things:
1. Match-up dis/advantages
2. Match-up experience
3. Character specific knowledge, meaning you've played as the character before, and know something about how they work.
Those three things are what I consider to be a must have if you're going to even stand a chance in a match that's not in your favor, and if it is, that doesn't give you the right to be lazy and not know what you need to know to win, because you'll find out that there's something you didn't know, and it'll cost you.
Beating Snake with Falcon is very hard, yes, but it can be done. No one is saying it's impossible, but the odds are heavily stacked against you. The only thing giving you any slight chance at winning is your own knowledge of the match-up and personal skill. That's mostly where the 25 or 30 in the 25-75/30-70 ration comes from.
I play with just about the entire cast in Brawl, and no some to most of the ins and outs to their styles, and know what to avoid, and what to bait and blah blah blah.
Most Falcons or players lose to certain characters because of these three things:
1. Match-up dis/advantages
2. Match-up experience
3. Character specific knowledge, meaning you've played as the character before, and know something about how they work.
Those three things are what I consider to be a must have if you're going to even stand a chance in a match that's not in your favor, and if it is, that doesn't give you the right to be lazy and not know what you need to know to win, because you'll find out that there's something you didn't know, and it'll cost you.
Beating Snake with Falcon is very hard, yes, but it can be done. No one is saying it's impossible, but the odds are heavily stacked against you. The only thing giving you any slight chance at winning is your own knowledge of the match-up and personal skill. That's mostly where the 25 or 30 in the 25-75/30-70
ration comes from.Point taken.
But you havent said anything that isnt common knowledge (?)
I could be wrong though, please repeat said knowledge and I'll shut up :embarrass.
who is dayu ive never heard of him not saying hes not good but im just wonderingFine then
But Ive seen both and Dayu is way better =)
alright i read this and its pretty legit
even though with those reasons the ratio is wrong, 70-30 because your not inlcuding what happens to snake when falcon gets him in the air
yeah, thisMy best advice for anyone trying to learn a match-up against a certain character is to simply play as that character.
I play with just about the entire cast in Brawl, and no some to most of the ins and outs to their styles, and know what to avoid, and what to bait and blah blah blah.
Most Falcons or players lose to certain characters because of these three things:
1. Match-up dis/advantages
2. Match-up experience
3. Character specific knowledge, meaning you've played as the character before, and know something about how they work.
Those three things are what I consider to be a must have if you're going to even stand a chance in a match that's not in your favor, and if it is, that doesn't give you the right to be lazy and not know what you need to know to win, because you'll find out that there's something you didn't know, and it'll cost you.
Beating Snake with Falcon is very hard, yes, but it can be done. No one is saying it's impossible, but the odds are heavily stacked against you. The only thing giving you any slight chance at winning is your own knowledge of the match-up and personal skill. That's mostly where the 25 or 30 in the 25-75/30-70
30-70 not 75-25 though.
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