No man, snake can simply airdodge all we have to offer, and having no inescapable follow ups doesnt help us either :/
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Captain Falcon's Match-Up Database! | (General Discussion); UPDATED: April 18th, 2010
- Thread starter Darky-Sama
- Start date
- Status
Darky-Sama
Smash Lord
Example; Falcon can banana lock Diddy with a jump canceled glide toss, considering it goes the same distance as Diddy's GT. Yes, the chances are very low since Diddy has a MUCH easier time at banana/ground control, but it's possible, nonetheless. Nothing to really excel the metagame or alter the match-up, but... everything needs a basis, and that hasn't been put down on record IIRC. At least, when I discussed it with the AIB players, it wasn't known whatsoever.
I haven't really said much at all yet, though. I've just been agreeing or disagreeing with people and saying whatever hasn't been covered. Just throwing in some random factors that people could probably put to good use. Everything I've stated works for me, at the very least.
Darky-Sama
Smash Lord
^
He does have a point. Snake has an awkward air dodge. Fastfalling with Falcon could leave the option to punish him pretty easy, even if the Snake fastfalls as well. His options are limited because usually, if you miss with an aerial, chances are he's going to be facing away from you when he lands.
Forward tilting could hurt Falcon if he gets enough recovery time to pull it off, if not, everything else can be punished with a grab. Grenades won't be much of a problem if they aren't set off with another attack, so grabbing/throwing him would be the best option, without the pummel to set off the 'nade if he does pull one.
That's something that cant be used in a MU discussion as the opponent controls his/her reaction. (So we cant guarantee the opponent will or will not airdodge or any defensive/offensive action.)
Darky-Sama
Smash Lord
If we were to use that basis, then why would any boards discuss ANY character?
I mean, this is a BRAWL match-up discussion. Very few things are guaranteed for any character.
We're supposed to be pointing out the pros and cons of the match-ups.
Things we can do to opponents and things they can do to us.
Things that we can punish and things that will get us punished.
"Snake has a long, but poor air dodge. Use that as a pothole to your advantage."
^
Example; it can help, somehow.
I mean, this is a BRAWL match-up discussion. Very few things are guaranteed for any character.
We're supposed to be pointing out the pros and cons of the match-ups.
Things we can do to opponents and things they can do to us.
Things that we can punish and things that will get us punished.
"Snake has a long, but poor air dodge. Use that as a pothole to your advantage."
^
Example; it can help, somehow.
Sovereign
Game Reaper
Not really. This game's mechanics keep people from making black and white claims like this one below.
Darky-Sama
Smash Lord
Sacr3d S3raph1m, I can understand what you're saying. Making claims like that, normally it isn't as simple as it seems since it's based on split second reactions. But Snake's air dodge is awkward, like I stated previously. It's actually not hard at all to punish because it lasts so long, and the rate he falls from the air.
gameandwatch 4 Lyfe
Smash Journeyman
falcon has the advantage in the air. does anyone doubt that?
nair does not shut down falcons air game at all. falcons uair is just too sexy for snake. try to land grabs and get him in the air/offstage. thats not easy, and killing snake isnt easy either which is why im leaning towards 65:35ish
nair does not shut down falcons air game at all. falcons uair is just too sexy for snake. try to land grabs and get him in the air/offstage. thats not easy, and killing snake isnt easy either which is why im leaning towards 65:35ish
Darky-Sama
Smash Lord
Snake has more range in the air, but Falcon's is generally better since all of Snake's aerials leave him in a HIGHLY punishable state if he misses. That, and all of his aerials have landing lag (unless you time the NAIR correctly, that is). That limits him to his terribad air dodge or attempting his poor aerials.
I wouldn't consider them bad, but if he doesn't hit you, he's probably going to get ****ed over and punished harder than a schoolgirl in detention.
Sovereign
Game Reaper
You're online, I'm online, so let's fight some Snake vs. Falcon MUs to get an outline of somethings. You can be Falcon and I'll use Snake.
If you're up for it get online and I'll be hosting up a room for you.
If you're up for it get online and I'll be hosting up a room for you.
Darky-Sama
Smash Lord
I'll get on now, then. Haven't been on brawl in about a week, so it should be a good warm-up.
Dude.
When we gonna play dawg.
If your brawls with Darky don't take longer than 30 mins, I can still play ya.
But its already 2 in the morning here, so dont stop for me. If you want to play darky longer than 30 mins, just do so, and we'll brawl some other time.
Sovereign
Game Reaper
Yes, Mr.
, sir.After my matches with Darky, some to a lot of my opinions on the Snake MU have changed, and the reality of it is, Snake is too easy for Falcon to combo.
I managed to double SPKnee/KoJ Darky's Snake, because he was in such a terrible position in the air and offstage. It was either drop to your doom, or face the wrath of a second KoJ, and Darky did what a man would do, and took the KoJ.
Darky-Sama
Smash Lord
It's true; and vise-versa, I was able to perform quite a few wicked combos on him while he was Snake. I also realized how much stutter stepping away from Snake then Raptor Boosting owns. I don't know how many times I approached Sacr3d's Snake, stutter stepped a Raptor Boost to avoid the tilt ranges and follow up with a punisher in midair.Yes, Mr.
After my matches with Darky, some to a lot of my opinions on the Snake MU have changed, and the reality of it is, Snake is too easy for Falcon to combo.
I managed to double SPKnee/KoJ Darky's Snake, because he was in such a terrible position in the air and offstage. It was either drop to your doom, or face the wrath of a second KoJ, and Darky did what a man would do, and took the KoJ.
It doesn't matter if you mind game them or not with it; it's pretty much the most useful tactic you have on Snake with Falcon while on the ground.
Side Note: Climbing up the ladder on Pictochat -> Dropzone Knee, for the win.
Beeing right about what, kind sir?
Darky-Sama
Smash Lord
I proved our point to Sacr3d S3raph1m.
That the match-up isn't nearly as horrible as people say. If you have experience against Snakes, it's really not all that poor for Falcon, surprisingly. We even tried both of Snake's overall tactics to see what Falcon had against them. Grenade camping and defensive play; Tilt and grab abusing and offensive play.
phi1ny3
Not the Mama
Why not 75:25? That hints that you get rewards for reading well, but like the Lucario vs. Ganon scenario, the safe nature of the better char prevents that from happening realistically or change the sway of the MU if the opponent knows what he is doing (which should always be assumed in a MU discussion).
80-20 is like an infinite/guaranteed method that the char has like one punishing option to get away from, and that's if he tries a setup or something.
80-20 is like an infinite/guaranteed method that the char has like one punishing option to get away from, and that's if he tries a setup or something.
Darky-Sama
Smash Lord
30:70 still sounds about right to me.
Falcon has far too many options (as awkward and weird is that is, it's probably the only time you'll hear me say that), that can get around Snake to consider it as low as 20:80. Snake is a large target and the fact that Falcon's attacks are close to lagless and quick to come out offer him the ability to punish a LOT of Snake's attacks.
After testing the cooldown time between each of Snake's tilts, I've realized that even they are punishable. The main thing Snake has over Falcon in this match-up is the fact that he has an amazing grab. Grenade stripping and the grabs are the main problem Falcon will face. If you know how to approach Snake without getting hit by a tilt, or you've practiced on punishing the tilts in general, you're pretty much in the clear for that factor. As for the grabs? They can still pose as a large threat.
If it wasn't for the grabs, I would be tempted to say 35:65; but 30:70 seems about right otherwise.
Falcon has far too many options (as awkward and weird is that is, it's probably the only time you'll hear me say that), that can get around Snake to consider it as low as 20:80. Snake is a large target and the fact that Falcon's attacks are close to lagless and quick to come out offer him the ability to punish a LOT of Snake's attacks.
After testing the cooldown time between each of Snake's tilts, I've realized that even they are punishable. The main thing Snake has over Falcon in this match-up is the fact that he has an amazing grab. Grenade stripping and the grabs are the main problem Falcon will face. If you know how to approach Snake without getting hit by a tilt, or you've practiced on punishing the tilts in general, you're pretty much in the clear for that factor. As for the grabs? They can still pose as a large threat.
If it wasn't for the grabs, I would be tempted to say 35:65; but 30:70 seems about right otherwise.
Darky-Sama
Smash Lord
I was speaking generally on the grab range / speed, but yeah, the ability to follow-up after his down throw is a very large problem as well. It's based more on proper predictions, but he can regrab or punish with quite a few things from the down throw.
snake can do anything to you after his dthrow
"safe" techchasing
hold shield
if they getup attack, regrab
if they roll behind, ftilt oos
if the roll away, dash attack oos (maybe mortar slide if you want)
its gay, i see Chops do it all the time
^when he plays brawl lol
"safe" techchasing
hold shield
if they getup attack, regrab
if they roll behind, ftilt oos
if the roll away, dash attack oos (maybe mortar slide if you want)
its gay, i see Chops do it all the time
^when he plays brawl lol
I'm going to stay out of this discussion, as you guys are dead set on your opinion, but I just want post, that one move, doesnt net a character 5 'MU' points.
If a char would gat 5 MU points for every move he/she has that beat falcons, all falcons MU's would be approx. (20 times 5=)1000-0
Darky-Sama
Smash Lord
This isn't a normal attack. This is a grab, which has it's own category of attacks.
-4 choices of attacks (+ pummeling).
-Priority (for it being a grab).
-High Range.
-Ability to punish with a follow-up after down throw: Guaranteed (based on prediction).
A skilled Snake wouldn't overlook abusing their grab game on a character like Falcon either.
That's why I'm lowering my ratio from 35:65 to 30:70.
I should go post in the Snake match-up thread to get some people to come here. Only about two Snake users even payed us a visit. But I posted in the wrong thread anyway, since the other was inactive. Ah well.
-4 choices of attacks (+ pummeling).
-Priority (for it being a grab).
-High Range.
-Ability to punish with a follow-up after down throw: Guaranteed (based on prediction).
A skilled Snake wouldn't overlook abusing their grab game on a character like Falcon either.
That's why I'm lowering my ratio from 35:65 to 30:70.
I should go post in the Snake match-up thread to get some people to come here. Only about two Snake users even payed us a visit. But I posted in the wrong thread anyway, since the other was inactive. Ah well.
†Slader7†
Smash Ace
I still think the OP should be updated before we start with inviting more snakes for discussion =/
Darky-Sama
Smash Lord
Yeah, that's my fault. Been busy this week.
I'll have the Zero Suit MU added to the OP soon.
teluoborg
Smash Otter
I don't want to sound alarmist or what, but Darky maybe you should update the OP real soon before this thread dies like every other Falcon MU thread has died before (ie the OP saying he'll update soon and then nuffin).
Just write "summary pending" in the ZSS section and "currently discussing" in the Snake one so that we can invite more Snakes to discuss.
Just write "summary pending" in the ZSS section and "currently discussing" in the Snake one so that we can invite more Snakes to discuss.
Sovereign
Game Reaper
The more I play the Falcon vs. Snake MU, the more I realize that Falcon can indeed **** Snake. Take his *** to Battlefield and **** him royally on the platforms or coutnerpick him to Lylat, where he will still get ***** royally on platforms.
(Pseudo Combo) Fthrow -> Buffered Dash -> Upsmash @ 0-20%
Works wonders on an unsuspecting Snake, and has an okay to meh about of pushback if shielded in time. It's something to take into consideration if you want to keep pressure on Snake.
I've learned that Falcon has amazing pressure game on Snake, and if done right will give him no room for setting up his wall-o-explosives and camping you to death. You can't camp someone if they're in your face the entire fight, which is something Falcon is all about. Snake's got many tools at his disposal from Grenades to Tilts, but against someone as fast and as agile as Falcon, I don't think he can hold his own too long, before he's put in the air, where he can and will catch a double KoJ. <3 U Darky. lolz on Brinstar.
(Pseudo Combo) Fthrow -> Buffered Dash -> Upsmash @ 0-20%
Works wonders on an unsuspecting Snake, and has an okay to meh about of pushback if shielded in time. It's something to take into consideration if you want to keep pressure on Snake.
I've learned that Falcon has amazing pressure game on Snake, and if done right will give him no room for setting up his wall-o-explosives and camping you to death. You can't camp someone if they're in your face the entire fight, which is something Falcon is all about. Snake's got many tools at his disposal from Grenades to Tilts, but against someone as fast and as agile as Falcon, I don't think he can hold his own too long, before he's put in the air, where he can and will catch a double KoJ. <3 U Darky. lolz on Brinstar.
Red-Blue
Was selected randomly
smashkng
Smash Lord
Please, can be the next discussion be Link? Neither Link boards has ever discussed it not this Falcon boards.
Sovereign
Game Reaper
That would be nice, since I've never had an actual discussion on what flaws aside from his recovery Falcon could exploit. I think Link should be done next, since he's like the Snake of Low-tiers.
Red-Blue
Was selected randomly
Where do you keep getting this **** from?! xD
teluoborg
Smash Otter
More than half of the cast hasn't discussed Falcon yet so Link isn't the absolute priority (and not the snake of low tier either).
Now we got 3 things to do :
-wait for Darky to come back and make the Snake discussion go further (like, invite some Snake mains)
-go to the Yoshi boards and help them with their empty "Yoshi v. Captain Falcon" thread
-go to the Falco boards because all that they've got left to discuss is the F tier.
What do we do first ?
Now we got 3 things to do :
-wait for Darky to come back and make the Snake discussion go further (like, invite some Snake mains)
-go to the Yoshi boards and help them with their empty "Yoshi v. Captain Falcon" thread
-go to the Falco boards because all that they've got left to discuss is the F tier.
What do we do first ?
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