Captain Falcon's Match-Up Database! | (General Discussion); UPDATED: April 18th, 2010

[Player-3]

**** skippy.

Also one question.

Do you even know how to land a Falcon Punch in at the least... a serious match?

If you can, then I can maybe agree on you with you being the best Falcon.

actually yes

ive falcon punched Ice (retired extreme hardcore zelda player) in a tournament match, Kismet2 in a tournament match, BigLou in a friiendly, along with other randoms in tournament matches.

also ive placed 12th out of 30-40 pretty decently when i entered brawl often

 

[yoshq]

GUYS I think you should do the donkey kong matchup very soon! I actually use falcon for him, although I'm considering switching to fawks. I think this is a very even matchup for falcon, those dks just can't land their smashes when you run 60x as fast as them!

 

[Deleted member]

^_^
kay
But i dont play link

 

[Zeallyx]

GUYS I think you should do the donkey kong matchup very soon! I actually use falcon for him, although I'm considering switching to fawks. I think this is a very even matchup for falcon, those dks just can't land their smashes when you run 60x as fast as them!

Dk's reach (amongst other things, offcourse) makes him a tough matchup, actually

 

[lordhelmet]

I think DK isn't too hard. 60-40 :DK:

We still need to discuss Snake though, we've pretty much discussed what needs to be discussed. As for the ratio I've heard anywhere from 80-20 to 50-50... coming to a middle ground will be tough.

 

[Player-3]

dk is a fun matchup i love it

i mmed a dk that placed 7/40 last time i went to a tourny and falcon punched him

i lost 2-1 cuz i hadnt played brawl at all that day but he was trash talking falcon so i wuz liek >:

 

[yoshq]

a dk got depressed once when i beat him >_> he thought it meant he sucked at brawl haha.

 

[†Slader7†]

What match up are we CURRENTLY doing? I see posts about snake, DK, MK, Lucario and still ZSS. The OP needs to be updated

 

[Player-3]

snake since people are bull headed
:V

 

[gameandwatch 4 Lyfe]

60:40 snake
snake cant camp at all in this matchup. keep the pressure on at mid range so you can punish if he throws a grenade or something, but you are out of tilt range. you can airdodge behind a sheilding snake and jab/grab/sheild an incoming ftilt. read the snake and avoid his ftilt and this becomes a very winnable matchup. falcons approach isnt very reliable and snake has a much easier time killing, but if you can get him in the air, uair completely wrecks snake. mess with the snakes offstage when they recover. uair when he uses upb, follow his airdodge and uair again. falcon has better airspeed than snake iirc and uair ***** snake so spam it.
not an unwinnable matchup at all

 

[Zeallyx]

60:40 snake
snake cant camp at all in this matchup.

Very wrong. Snake can camp very effectively in this matchup.
The pressure falcon can put on snake, is not really pressure at all.

Snake can just take a hit just to do falcon twice as much damage as falcon does to him, lol.

 

[smashkng]

Snake camps very hard Falcon. Grenades, tilts and escape with DACUS ***** him. Falcon's speed isn't enough because it's usually misstakes of Snake that allows for Falcon to hit Snake. It's extremely hard to get in to Snake with Falcon. 75/25 Snake.

 

[Darky-Sama]

I've returned. I'll be updating the OP tonight.
Discussing Meta Knight won't do as much help to aspiring Falcons, so it can wait. Thanks to the Lucario Boards, we have a basis for the Falcon/Lucario guide on hand. We can further discuss Lucario soon after but for now; the discussion will now be changed to Snake.

Discuss.
The Snake boards will be alerted momentarily.

 

[gameandwatch 4 Lyfe]

dacus brings snake back to a neutral position, which doesnt benefit either character. grenades aren't that tough to avoid with falcons awesome ground and air speeds. you can approach snake by airdodging behind his sheild. punish his ftilt with grabs to set up your air game. go nuts offstage.
you guys are doing it wrong if you think this is 80:20

 

[Darky-Sama]

20:80? Are you guys crazy?
I wouldn't place this match-up any lower than 35:65; Snake.

Yes, it is Snake. But you've got to realize how much of a defensive character with massive cooldown time Snake is compared to Falcon; who is the complete opposite. Getting through Snake is a pain considering his tilts and amazing grab range, but you're highly overreacting if you think that's going to demolish Falcon's approaches entirely.

I'll add my reasons soon;
Working on the ZSS MU + waiting for Snake boards.

 

[smashkng]

dacus brings snake back to a neutral position, which doesnt benefit either character. grenades aren't that tough to avoid with falcons awesome ground and air speeds. you can approach snake by airdodging behind his sheild. punish his ftilt with grabs to set up your air game. go nuts offstage.
you guys are doing it wrong if you think this is 80:20

I don't think you can shield grab Snake's ftilt with CF (lol), along Ganon CF's standing grab range is garbage.

 

[Darky-Sama]

I've actually shield grabbed Snake's Ftilt before. If you shield grab as soon as the first hit from the Ftilt clashes with Falcon's shield, he has a split second to grab Snake before the second half of the Ftilt hits him. Though Falcon will take damage from the Ftilt, the grab takes priority over it and registers. The timing is so strict though, Falcon will have difficulty assuring it. He'd be better off shielding both hits and retaliating with something else.

 

[smashkng]

I've actually shield grabbed Snake's Ftilt before. If you shield grab as soon as the first hit from the Ftilt clashes with Falcon's shield, he has a split second to grab Snake before the second half of the Ftilt hits him. Though Falcon will take damage from the Ftilt, the grab takes priority over it and registers. The timing is so strict though, Falcon will have difficulty assuring it. He'd be better off shielding both hits and retaliating with something else.

But both hits Snake's ftilt are also disjointed (its hitboxes that are invisible getting hacked range). And is CF's Oos options good or horrible like Ganon?

 

[Darky-Sama]

They aren't necessarily HORRIBLE, but certainly not some of his better options. You can always jump cancel your shield + Cstick up to register an upsmash out of shield instantly, but his options are fairly limited. If you just lower your shield, he can use his up tilt to easily space and outrange. The up tilt actually has loads of priority compared to the rest of Falcon's moveset.

 

[gameandwatch 4 Lyfe]

you can sheild and dashgrab after snake ftilts because there is some cooldown time on it and falcon is fast. you can also PS the first hit and grab.
thank god someone agrees with me, i thought the falcon boards had lost it. dont assume position on the tier list affects a mathup. i mean its pretty well known that zelda BEATS ddd and falco...

 

[TwentyTwo]

60:40 based on what premise?

Stage control - Snake
Weight - Snake
Kill potential - Snake
Long range - Snake
Close range - Snake
Mid Range - You might be able to argue, but it's not like we can't light toss grenades, leave a c4 in this area.
Offstage - We recover high, and you chase us to the ground, it becomes rock paper scissors, airdodge, aerials, and b-reversals. You on the other hand can suffer from mortar edgeguarding/edge hugs.

65:35 at least.

 

[Zeallyx]

60:40 based on what premise?

Stage control - Snake
Weight - Snake
Kill potential - Snake
Long range - Snake
Close range - Snake
Mid Range - You might be able to argue, but it's not like we can't light toss grenades, leave a c4 in this area.
Offstage - We recover high, and you chase us to the ground, it becomes rock paper scissors, airdodge, aerials, and b-reversals. You on the other hand can suffer from mortar edgeguarding/edge hugs.

65:35 at least.

This^

And believe me, the right ratio for this matchup, when compared to all falcons other Matchup ratio's, and when just looking at the facts, is 80-20 snake's advantage.

MK is 90-10, MK's advantage
Yoshi is 60-40, yoshi's advantage
Samus is 60-40, Samus' advantage
Luigi is 65-35, Luigi's advantage
Diddy is 70-30, Diddy's advantage
GaW is 75-25, GaW's advantage
Snake is 80-20, Snake's advantage

it adds up, whoo : D

 

[Nidtendofreak]

you can sheild and dashgrab after snake ftilts because there is some cooldown time on it and falcon is fast. you can also PS the first hit and grab.
thank god someone agrees with me, i thought the falcon boards had lost it. dont assume position on the tier list affects a mathup. i mean its pretty well known that zelda BEATS ddd and falco...

More like evenish with D3, and I don't remember how the Falco match-up broke down.

She does beat ICs though.

 

[gameandwatch 4 Lyfe]

no.
long range means nothing in this matchup because falcon can close the gap in no time. grenades cant really keep falcon away at long range.
snake obviously wins at close range and killing which is why the matchup is in his favor.
falcon can do many more things to gimp/rack up offstage damage on snake than the other way around. falcons uair is an amazing move that works wonders on snake. you can follow his airdodge if he dodges the first uair and land your 2nd uair, and string something together.
falcon is heavy too with pretty good DI, he will live longer than you would think.
im not saying this isnt in snakes favor, it definitely is, it just really isnt that bad

 

[Player-3]

60:40 based on what premise?

Stage control - Snake
Weight - Snake
Kill potential - Snake
Long range - Snake
Close range - Snake
Mid Range - You might be able to argue, but it's not like we can't light toss grenades, leave a c4 in this area.
Offstage - We recover high, and you chase us to the ground, it becomes rock paper scissors, airdodge, aerials, and b-reversals. You on the other hand can suffer from mortar edgeguarding/edge hugs.

65:35 at least.

65:35 is okay i guess

i guess im just too good for normal players
]:

oh right i forgot

if the snake decides to pull a nade while your juggling him with uair, just use up b, doesnt activate it and its free damage lul

 

[Zeallyx]

no.
long range means nothing in this matchup because falcon can close the gap in no time. grenades cant really keep falcon away at long range.
snake obviously wins at close range and killing which is why the matchup is in his favor.
falcon can do many more things to gimp/rack up offstage damage on snake than the other way around. falcons uair is an amazing move that works wonders on snake. you can follow his airdodge if he dodges the first uair and land your 2nd uair, and string something together.
falcon is heavy too with pretty good DI, he will live longer than you would think.
im not saying this isnt in snakes favor, it definitely is, it just really isnt that bad

65:35 is okay i guess

i guess im just too good for normal players
]:

oh right i forgot

if the snake decides to pull a nade while your juggling him with uair, just use up b, doesnt activate it and its free damage lul

You guys severely underrate snake.

And gameandwatch 4 lyfe doesnt understand the falcon vs snake matchup.
Seriously, Dash grab after a Ftilt? Why would snake miss as every attempt falcon can make puts falcon in a position where snake can simply choose his attack.

Or he can choose to get hit, and still get away with mroe damage on falcon.

Again, you guys are severely underrating snake.

Also, (I'll) get SuSa in here, too. : )

 

[Player-3]

no knee, i secondary snake for lulz i dont underrate him i just know how to play agaisnt him

sadly enough you still get ***** if the snake doesnt mess up

it is in no way 80-20 though

 

[Zeallyx]

no knee, i secondary snake for lulz i dont underrate him i just know how to play agaisnt him

sadly enough you still get ***** if the snake doesnt mess up

it is in no way 80-20 though

Its not a matter of skill. As the matchup ratio is based on high level of play.
And in high level of play, snake is top tier, and falcon bottom tier.

If you don't understand that, then you are a few steps behind, bro.

And yes, it is 80-20, or can you debunk any of the other mu ratio's I've provided? (a few posts back)

 

[Player-3]

dear god not susa

SUSA NO SUPER THEORYCRAFT BROS I SUCK AT THAT GAME

 

[Salem]

Its not a matter of skill. As the matchup ratio is based on high level of play.
And in high level of play, snake is top tier, and falcon bottom tier.

If you don't understand that, then you are a few steps behind, bro.

And yes, it is 80-20, or can you debunk any of the other mu ratio's I've provided? (a few posts back)

High level play?

Please, Falcon's metagame is barely known.
For all we know he could have some broken way in his metagame to not even get hit, which we don't know about.

 

[SuSa]

Hey Salem.

We're worried about now, not the future.

@Player-#
I played OGV at Active Gamers. :x Really legit Falcon from Nevada. He almost took our first game in pools off me.

Then I nearly 3 stocked him at 267%. But dieded.

So first match my thoughts:
"Wow, I was right. Seems pretty even for me. Glad I felt this was 55-45 with pretty limited offline experience."

After first match:
"Holy ****.... Falcon... really can't do ****... at all.. this is pathetic... he has like, 2 options... IF I mess up a little.... and even then, those options suck.... this is AT LEAST 70:30 Snake"

/no theorycrafting (stated, although it's there), just straight up my thoughts based on 1 set in pools. lawl

 

[noradseven]

I kinda agree with P3 on the matchup thing, sure snake can totally own him, at close range...who can't he. but nades are really not too much of a problem with falcon, plus once falcon gets snake into the air and keeps the pressure on, its a rock paper scissor game in falcons favor.

Too bad that snake is so heavy, and does crazy knockback, and that he beats falco on the ground.

Also snake becomes alot less scary after you learn to SDI on reaction to alot of his dumb ****.

I would kinda put the match around 65:35 and 70:30, I mean in all honesty... snake is gay.

 

[SuSa]

Do not read this Player-3

Spoiler

Falcon is fun to avoid when all his grounded attacks are slower then reaction time (save jab), which means jab, grab, nair, uair, bair are your only really viable moves.

For bair, you have to be facing away from us. Which means nair shouldn't hit, and backhit uair is... slow.. and you'd probably get hit before you hit us with it. Which means, if you are facing away from us in the air. You have ONE option. Which lacks range to beat Snake's attacks.

Now when you are facing towards us, you have jab/grab/nair/uair. Out of those, nair and uair are your best choices. (You shouldn't get into range to jab/grab) which leaves you 2 moves for the matchup, not counting up-B (which is really, your only viable special in this matchup. We can pivot grab side-B, we can shield and grab down-B... and... Falcon Punch.. is well... Falcon Punch)

 

[Salem]

Hey Salem.

We're worried about now, not the future.

@Player-#
I played OGV at Active Gamers. :x Really legit Falcon from Nevada. He almost took our first game in pools off me.

Then I nearly 3 stocked him at 267%. But dieded.

So first match my thoughts:
"Wow, I was right. Seems pretty even for me. Glad I felt this was 55-45 with pretty limited offline experience."

After first match:
"Holy ****.... Falcon... really can't do ****... at all.. this is pathetic... he has like, 2 options... IF I mess up a little.... and even then, those options suck.... this is AT LEAST 70:30 Snake"

/no theorycrafting (stated, although it's there), just straight up my thoughts based on 1 set in pools. lawl

267%?

Learn to refresh yo, seriously it helps. >_>
Just saying.

@Norad:

Yes, thats also something needed in this match-up, thats also something I would explain in the Lucario match-up, it's the most important thing in that match-up and is what i'm mostly gonna discuss, which is my secret.

 

[Zeallyx]

High level play?

Please, Falcon's metagame is barely known.
For all we know he could have some broken way in his metagame to not even get hit, which we don't know about.

wtf..


I dont know how to react..
are you trolling, Salem?

Or..
Are you seriously implying falcon has hidden potential, and some way to play him he can get around his own moveset and lack of almost everything?

Let alone potential. Falcon doesnt have that sort of fancy crap.

Falcons MG is only using falcons least punishable moves while choosing the least easy punishable way of playing.

Look, other characters MG's actually have more to it, but falcon lacks the moveset to do otherwise then rely on speed (which is useless against projectile users) and mobility (which helps him, but not enough, unfortunatly) and mindgames (which aren't a part of a MU discussion).

And when a characters MG is based on mindgames and punishing, he/she isnt tourny viable in a game with characters at the top with so much more potential/better movesets.

As all characters can walk, and all have mobility.
But I'd rather have a nanner ready, or some lazers.

or reach, when I do get close, or tilts with the knockback of smashes, or offcourse almost no lag on almost all moves.

Falcon has none of the above, making his MG simple, but still hard to pull off effectively, as falcon relies on the player, and the player alone.

As the things falcon does has going for him are telegraphed, or simply not good enough.

And Norad, there is no such thing as falcon putting pressure on snake.

As Snake can choose to get hitted by almost every move falcon has, and get away with it while leaving falcon with more damage than himself.

 

[Deleted member]

Yea i saw susa beat OGV, but i do think he was playing too aggressively, especially in this matchup which requires a ton of patience.
But alas.

 

[SuSa]

Yes, please play slowly and allow me to setup a fortress of explosions around myself.

 

[lordhelmet]

I would say that 65-35 is the most reasonable, generally agreed on match-up for Snake. Our biggest problem is that few (if any) of us are playing in high-level competitions, and that leaves us fighting mediocre Snakes. Which in turn makes us believe the match-up is easier than it really is.

70-30 IMO

Because once the Snake figures out that every single move he has beats out all of ours, we're pretty much screwed.

 

[Darky-Sama]

I would say 25:75 as the lowest for Falcon. No higher than 35:65 though.

This match-up isn't nearly as bad as people think. I've only met a handful of Falcons who even KNOW how to handle themselves in the Snake match-up properly. That doesn't mean the ones who do know their match-ups don't stand much of a chance either. That's just levying the ratio based on players with two different skill levels.

Snake owns Falcon in just about every way; this is a given. But considering Falcon does operate in contrast to Snake (low cool down time on attacks, high mobility and a character more focused on their air game than their ground game), it's really hard to accept his ratio is as low as 20:80; especially for the people like myself, who've had lots of experience with this match-up.

After playing people like Ally and Bunnyma, I'd give the match-up a 35:65.
Others might not see it the same way, but in my opinion, 35:65 seems about right.

 

[Deleted member]

Yes, please play slowly and allow me to setup a fortress of explosions around myself.

Its not play slowly, its like saying that MK not playing full on rushdown is playing slowly.

Btw we need to MM snake vs yoshi (even though i quit him) and snake vs falcon ^_^