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Captain Falcon's Match-Up Database! | (General Discussion); UPDATED: April 18th, 2010
- Thread starter Darky-Sama
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I do things like that as well PJGLZ, but the way you're putting it makes it seem as if you mean it's guranteed, wich is not. (Though you'll have to clear the air on that for me).
I'll admit attack strings with Falcon is actually useful. Just space right & don't get too confident about what you get going & attack strings are sure fire secks.
Also anyone else getting some Up-b into their game? I am >.>
Edit: We have a guaranteed sweet knee on Falco? Offstage GrabRelease -> Knee? I actually didn't know. (Will look at it later)
...By the sound of it I picture it really hard for Falco to get back onstage whether it's sweet or not.
I'll admit attack strings with Falcon is actually useful. Just space right & don't get too confident about what you get going & attack strings are sure fire secks.
Also anyone else getting some Up-b into their game? I am >.>
Edit: We have a guaranteed sweet knee on Falco? Offstage GrabRelease -> Knee? I actually didn't know. (Will look at it later)
...By the sound of it I picture it really hard for Falco to get back onstage whether it's sweet or not.
Darky-Sama
Smash Lord
If you run off the stage and flub a knee on Falco, you basically stole a stock if you play your cards right. Considering the hitstun that a flubbed knee promotes (and the fact that it IS a flubbed knee, you'll have low cooldown time from the point you hit Falco), you can have the ability to both recover and edgehog Falco, or come up with a rising Bair towards the stage for a stage spike.
I'm not just speaking blindly about that either. Both tested and proven to work.
I'm not just speaking blindly about that either. Both tested and proven to work.
Salem
Smash Champion
^^^^^^^^^
This
But right, we shouldn't really have a hard time playing against him, you can almost just B-throw and knee him while he's trying to recover to take a stock.
Laser's aren't as annoying as you'd expect in this MU.
If Falco can't recover with Forward-B he's already lost the game...
Unless you mess up the gimp.
He pretty much only has 4 options to get on the stage if you take him off it.
Forward-B on stage.
Forward-B on the ledge.
Up-B on stage.
Up-B on Ledge.
His ledge Forward-B tactics shouldn't work either if you time the knee.
Well I couldn't get it to work.
Is it a pummel release or air release?
For the air release I could only get to him if I jumped out a bit and kneed. (Though I was doing this at 2:30 AM without being able to make all the control noise I wanted >.>)
Is it a pummel release or air release?
For the air release I could only get to him if I jumped out a bit and kneed. (Though I was doing this at 2:30 AM without being able to make all the control noise I wanted >.>)
†Slader7†
Smash Ace
I get the point that Falco is fairly easy to gimp, but the problem is fighting on the stage. Now how can we get Falco offstage if lasers, downB, and CGs prevent us from doing so? The thing is Falco can still **** us even without his CG. His jab is better, his aerials have more priority, and his projectiles give him a steep advantage. All we have is CQC range (utilt, uair), a better time killing, and a fairly good offstage game.
I see this match up as 70-30
Falco's projectile range, speed, and better jab just gives him a good advantage over Falcon.
I see this match up as 70-30
Falco's projectile range, speed, and better jab just gives him a good advantage over Falcon.
mlorenzo
Smash Journeyman
the only way that falco can escape the the run off knee is by using side b. however he will still lose a stock but if falcon is at high percentage he will also lose a stock. and yes the problem is fighting on the stage.
Salem
Smash Champion
If Falco has a better Jab then we can use D-tilt instead, it has a less chance of getting shield grabbed and it knocks him into the air.I get the point that Falco is fairly easy to gimp, but the problem is fighting on the stage. Now how can we get Falco offstage if lasers, downB, and CGs prevent us from doing so? The thing is Falco can still **** us even without his CG. His jab is better, his aerials have more priority, and his projectiles give him a steep advantage. All we have is CQC range (utilt, uair), a better time killing, and a fairly good offstage game.
I see this match up as 70-30
Falco's projectile range, speed, and better jab just gives him a good advantage over Falcon.
Falco's F-air sucks our F-air beats his, our B-air beats his B-air if we hit his with the disjointed part if not they trade hits, same for N-air... His D-air and U-air are simliar to ours exept our D-air can actually kill without spiking and our U-air sends people horizontal (gimp Falco much?) in the end we'll probably be living up to 150%'s unless somebody is dumb enough to get hit with Falco's slow F-smash, don't get hit with that.
We should also barely be in D-smash range thats the kind of spacing needed as that's just out of his grab range.
His Up-smash will probably get stale and in his CG if we aren't close enough to the edge he'll usually DACUS or D-air which can be SDI+DI'd away from to get farther away from Falco, the DACUS's Up-smash can be easily dodged also by SDI+DIng and then dodging behind him iirc.
I can pull out a giant summary of how we beat Falco...
He's not as hard as you'd expect and the lazer's are...
†Slader7†
Smash Ace
I guess I have been playing against Falco the wrong way >.<
I'll be looking forward to the summary
teluoborg
Smash Otter
There's no such thing as aerial priority. When two aerials collide it's just about which one touches the opponent's hurtbox first, therefore it's all about range and disjointedness. And as far as I know our aerials have better range than Falco's.I get the point that Falco is fairly easy to gimp, but the problem is fighting on the stage. Now how can we get Falco offstage if lasers, downB, and CGs prevent us from doing so? The thing is Falco can still **** us even without his CG. His jab is better, his aerials have more priority, and his projectiles give him a steep advantage. All we have is CQC range (utilt, uair), a better time killing, and a fairly good offstage game.
I see this match up as 70-30
Falco's projectile range, speed, and better jab just gives him a good advantage over Falcon.
The only trick Falco has in his aerial game is his fast jump and fall speed (+ the fact that his hitboxes stay out for a loooooong time). Space well and you should beat Falco in the air.
About the lasers you just have to learn to perfect shield.
The rythm of Falco's SHLs and SHDLs is repetitive so it's even easier to get the timing down.
And be very careful when air dodging a laser because that's what every Falco is waiting for.
To sum up the matchup I'd say that :
Falco has a easy time building damage but a hard time KOing.
FalcoN has a hard time with ground battles but no problem when it comes to gimp/KO.
So what you MUST do is avoid taking "stupid" damage like lasers or CGs.
†Slader7†
Smash Ace
hmm, okay this is what I got so far as a summary:
Falco sucks offstage, gimp him
Lasers are overrated, do not fear them
use fast aerials
Falco is light, dies easily
Beware of CG and predict what will occur after the CG
Falco sucks at killing, but is good at racking up damage . . . . .
laser locks occur rarely
knee ftw?
objections?
Falco sucks offstage, gimp him
Lasers are overrated, do not fear them
use fast aerials
Falco is light, dies easily
Beware of CG and predict what will occur after the CG
Falco sucks at killing, but is good at racking up damage . . . . .
laser locks occur rarely
knee ftw?
objections?
Darth Destro
Smash Cadet
Psychoace
Smash Champion
next character..
Mit
Smash Ace
I think actual gameplay disproves most all of this theory that Falcon does not have a hard time against Falco. Falcon gets ***** by Falco. His entire moveset can outprioritize/outrange Falcon's, he can force approaches with his laser and punish just about anything we do when we get close to him (god help us if the match is on Final Destination), he can chaingrab and throw out very dangerous bair gimps when we try to recover from said chaingrab's ending, etc etc.
Just go watch those matches from Lionman against a good (although not even that great) Falco. They were extremely uphill battles for Falcon that ultimately ended with Falco winning the set. It's possible to beat him, yes, but it's definitely not easy in the slightest.
Just go watch those matches from Lionman against a good (although not even that great) Falco. They were extremely uphill battles for Falcon that ultimately ended with Falco winning the set. It's possible to beat him, yes, but it's definitely not easy in the slightest.
lordhelmet
Smash Master
It seems like everyone who wants to input has done so.
Everyone agree that it's 70-30 and we should move on?
Everyone agree that it's 70-30 and we should move on?
teluoborg
Smash Otter
I hate the fact that only one Falco came to discuss the matchup, but we should probably move on the next matchup.
And maybe later post the summary on the Falco boards to see if they agree (and maybe do that for the Snake boards too).
So what's next ? Wario ? Marth ? Zelda ?
And maybe later post the summary on the Falco boards to see if they agree (and maybe do that for the Snake boards too).
So what's next ? Wario ? Marth ? Zelda ?
lordhelmet
Smash Master
Someone needs to make a summary for Falco, then send it to DarkySama.
I think we should wait a bit right now, let's let Darky catch up on everything!
lordhelmet
Smash Master
So I was talking to Darky earlier, he has to take time off of Brawl right now. He has a lot of college **** to deal with right now, when I get my laptop (and if Darky is still busy) I will take over this thread.
Sovereign
Game Reaper
I say discuss Wario, next. There's some stuff I want to get out of the way concerning him. He's one of the easier high/top tiers we have to deal with.
teluoborg
Smash Otter
Hum bite doesn't destroy everything Falcon has. Well it destroys everything except Utilt and Usmash (yes usmash), but not everything D:
lordhelmet
Smash Master
Yeah, bite is a pain in the ***. Once you figure out how to work around it, it's not too hard to punish.
If he starts a bite and if you can get behind him, you get a free grab! Utilt is like our only move that will beat bite, so use that too.
If he starts a bite and if you can get behind him, you get a free grab! Utilt is like our only move that will beat bite, so use that too.
Sovereign
Game Reaper
The fact that this match isn't as bad as you make it seem. Wario is indeed a tough match for Falcon, but we have a lot of pluses going for us.
Grab Release options are huge. We can finish Wario at 90% with a guaranteed Knee from Grab Release or we can infinite Wario, and don't forget Knee's combo against Wario that ends with him at 69%.
Wario's bike is not only his tool to use. We can also utilize his bike is some of the same fashions he does. By holding "B" when throwing the bike in any direction, it will bounce, instead of the usual flop. This makes pressuring Wario with his own item very useful.
A lot of the fight, we'll have to bait Wario by running away with SH Bairs, or we could fake him, and run into him with Bairs hitting with the front part(nipple Bair). This matchup is about 55:45
Agree or Disagree?
lordhelmet
Smash Master
You make a point, but 55-45 is waaayy too high. Wario is top tier for a reason.The fact that this match isn't as bad as you make it seem. Wario is indeed a tough match for Falcon, but we have a lot of pluses going for us.
Grab Release options are huge. We can finish Wario at 90% with a guaranteed Knee from Grab Release or we can infinite Wario, and don't forget Knee's combo against Wario that ends with him at 69%.
Wario's bike is not only his tool to use. We can also utilize his bike is some of the same fashions he does. By holding "B" when throwing the bike in any direction, it will bounce, instead of the usual flop. This makes pressuring Wario with his own item very useful.
A lot of the fight, we'll have to bait Wario by running away with SH Bairs, or we could fake him, and run into him with Bairs hitting with the front part(nipple Bair). This matchup is about 55:45
Agree or Disagree?
60-40 at least, I'd say 65-35 though.
Sovereign
Game Reaper
Are you serious? I don't give a **** if you're top tier. If I'm able to beat your *** with what I got, and I have enough advantages on you to make the MU near even then so be it. Your top tier status affects no MU ratio, in any shape, form, or fashion. Lordy, I'm going to ask you to give me a better reason to put it at 60:40 or 65:35
Falcon has excellent KO power, and Wario is not that heavy. Wario has just a good KO powers, and has his Chomp, but if that's all you guys can think of, then you're fighting bad Wario's or fighting bad as Falcon against Wario. Chomp has lag, if missed, allowing us time to counter in some way. Our grab releases and possible infinite, at the very least tech chase, make this match up that much easier, since Wario has to get close in order to fight us. Shield grab is our greatest ally in this MU. I'm stickin' with my ratio, 55:45
I agree with this, Shield grabbing works wonders on wario, specially with the grab release set-ups, and gimping wario with falcon isnt that hard, since uair and up b can get wario off the bike off stage.Are you serious? I don't give a **** if you're top tier. If I'm able to beat your *** with what I got, and I have enough advantages on you to make the MU near even then so be it. Your top tier status affects no MU ratio, in any shape, form, or fashion. Lordy, I'm going to ask you to give me a better reason to put it at 60:40 or 65:35
Falcon has excellent KO power, and Wario is not that heavy. Wario has just a good KO powers, and has his Chomp, but if that's all you guys can think of, then you're fighting bad Wario's or fighting bad as Falcon against Wario. Chomp has lag, if missed, allowing us time to counter in some way. Our grab releases and possible infinite, at the very least tech chase, make this match up that much easier, since Wario has to get close in order to fight us. Shield grab is our greatest ally in this MU. I'm stickin' with my ratio, 55:45
Wario has some serious killing power with his uair, fair and fart. Bite is good for racking up damage, but that can be beat with utilt.
55:45 or 60:40 dont sound too far off for one of falcon easiest MU
smashkng
Smash Lord
You guys forgot how hard Wario is to grab. At the highest level play Wario will close to never be grabbed, less with Falcon's garbage grab range which means grab releases do close to nothing to Wario, that's why he is still top tier despite grab releases. And infinites on him except Yoshi are close to useless because Warios predicting grab release infinites will mash extremely quickly when you try to pummel him to ground break. Wario also has high priority in his moves even though he lacks disjointeness, which his aerials except bair and uair last forever. Despite grab release he can CG Falcon to 70%, then fthrow for 83%, which makes it even harder for Falcon like seen here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SnmA0lfsZCM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SnmA0lfsZCM
Sovereign
Game Reaper
Grab Release stems from being grabbed, and when that happens, Wario is Falcon's ***** for whatever Falcon plans to do next. If Wario's a fast masher, and can get out of a grab quickly, we only need one pummel before releasing him to the air, where we can knee him, Uair, Usmash, Fsmash(tilted upward), and other things. Wario is indeed near hard to grab, but not impossible. Reading/prediction and reaction is what is required. Falcon mains depend solely on that, so it's not that hard.
That CG mess is a *****, but Falcon mains should never stop moving long enough for Wario to grab them. If Falcon can grab the bike, or keep Wario off the bike, then we've got one less thing to worry about.
What is your ratio for this MU, SmashK?
Also, what stages do you guys suggest taking Wario to on a counterpick and what stages do you suggest banning from him?
teluoborg
Smash Otter
Dudes, stop saying shieldgrabbing works on Wario. It'll work once, maybe twice, then if the Wario isn't dumb he'll bite every single shield you put up.
And SS please don't say things like "grabbing Wario is hard but possible, but Warios won't be able to grab Falcon cause he never stops moving", they don't make sense at all.
If it wasn't for Wario's Dair and bite it'd be a good matchup for Falcon, but these two moves alone take away a lot of Falcon's options. Wario clearly has the advantage as long as he doesn't get in grab range. That's why it's not 55:45.
And the GR > knee doesn't KO at 80 nor 90%, because of Wario's weight + drifting speed it's more like 100-110%
And SS please don't say things like "grabbing Wario is hard but possible, but Warios won't be able to grab Falcon cause he never stops moving", they don't make sense at all.
If it wasn't for Wario's Dair and bite it'd be a good matchup for Falcon, but these two moves alone take away a lot of Falcon's options. Wario clearly has the advantage as long as he doesn't get in grab range. That's why it's not 55:45.
And the GR > knee doesn't KO at 80 nor 90%, because of Wario's weight + drifting speed it's more like 100-110%
smashkng
Smash Lord
Bite ***** everyone without disjointenes, and that's one of the things Falcon lacks. It even eats Falcon Punch, taking the damage but no knockback at all and biting Falcon.
Characters with predictable killing moves have extremely hard time killing Wario, like for example Falco, and all of CF's ground killing moves are slow and predictable. Watch out Farts starting at 0:55 if you're at high percents, or even as low as 80% if it's at 1:30-1:55 (1 second before Fully Charged kills MK at the extreme of FD at 26% with no DI). Wario doesn't suck at killing at all either, because up air, forward smash, ftilt and some others can also kill (two of them really fast and fsmash has super armor). If you're at high percents, also DI his forward throw or it's kill at 150% or at a percent like that if he gets a grab close to the edge. Remember Wario is one of the best punishers in the game, being able to punish moves with barely any lag at all (can even punish MK), and punishing in the air, which is something that almost no other character can do.
I would say something like 70/30 because Falcon is gimpable for Wario, easy to block his moves for Wario with his long lasting and near impossible to punish aerials (they at least trade hits with Falcon) due Falcon's crap priority which means Falcon is very limited in approach options and Falcon has tough time killing Wario because of his air speed and heavyweight and lack of a quick ground killing move of Falcon. Wario can camp but he beats Falcon even without it. About stages Warios almost always ban FD because it's easier to grab him and there no plataforms to jump there but Falcon is probably also easier to be grabbed there as well. But still grab releases on Wario do barely anything to him.
Wario also has the best weight-size combination in the game, so he isn't that easy to hit despite his weight.
Characters with predictable killing moves have extremely hard time killing Wario, like for example Falco, and all of CF's ground killing moves are slow and predictable. Watch out Farts starting at 0:55 if you're at high percents, or even as low as 80% if it's at 1:30-1:55 (1 second before Fully Charged kills MK at the extreme of FD at 26% with no DI). Wario doesn't suck at killing at all either, because up air, forward smash, ftilt and some others can also kill (two of them really fast and fsmash has super armor). If you're at high percents, also DI his forward throw or it's kill at 150% or at a percent like that if he gets a grab close to the edge. Remember Wario is one of the best punishers in the game, being able to punish moves with barely any lag at all (can even punish MK), and punishing in the air, which is something that almost no other character can do.
I would say something like 70/30 because Falcon is gimpable for Wario, easy to block his moves for Wario with his long lasting and near impossible to punish aerials (they at least trade hits with Falcon) due Falcon's crap priority which means Falcon is very limited in approach options and Falcon has tough time killing Wario because of his air speed and heavyweight and lack of a quick ground killing move of Falcon. Wario can camp but he beats Falcon even without it. About stages Warios almost always ban FD because it's easier to grab him and there no plataforms to jump there but Falcon is probably also easier to be grabbed there as well. But still grab releases on Wario do barely anything to him.
Wario also has the best weight-size combination in the game, so he isn't that easy to hit despite his weight.
Gardex
Smash Lord
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erial priotiriz dun exits
smashkng
Smash Lord
I think Wario dair, fair, nair and uair are a bit disjointed as seen here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WnkVukU5WOo
So is this the priority that beats other aerials?
From what I've heard and framework data I've researched, it has more to do with range than priority when it comes to aerials.
So, since Wario has "disjointed" hitboxes on his aerials, they would naturally beat out other characters' aerials that don't possess the same range on their moves.
So, since Wario has "disjointed" hitboxes on his aerials, they would naturally beat out other characters' aerials that don't possess the same range on their moves.
teluoborg
Smash Otter
^I was going to say this.
And "Falcon can't kill Wario" ?
Falcon has 4 reliable options to kill Wario : Utilt, Uair, Bair and grab.
Also Wario doesn't gimp Falcon easily, it's dumb but the small teleport of Falcon dive goes trough almost all of Wario's aerials, the bike and the fart (maybe not his Dair, this move is too broken).
So the two things you have to fear the most are Dair and Bite.
About the stage choice, the less platforms there are the better it is for Falcon imo.
PS : Wario's hitboxes : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WnkVukU5WOo
The more you know.
And "Falcon can't kill Wario" ?
Falcon has 4 reliable options to kill Wario : Utilt, Uair, Bair and grab.
Also Wario doesn't gimp Falcon easily, it's dumb but the small teleport of Falcon dive goes trough almost all of Wario's aerials, the bike and the fart (maybe not his Dair, this move is too broken).
So the two things you have to fear the most are Dair and Bite.
About the stage choice, the less platforms there are the better it is for Falcon imo.
PS : Wario's hitboxes : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WnkVukU5WOo
The more you know.
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