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Captain Falcon's Match-Up Database! | (General Discussion); UPDATED: April 18th, 2010

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smashkng

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Stop saying grab is reliable. It isn't at all. A Wario at the highest level play possible is extremely hard to grab. Falcon's up tilt is slow, Wario must be in the air and above Falcon for him to up air (Wario has faster and better air mobility than Falcon) and bair can't hit on the ground unless you wait, which makes it predictable. Falcon has trouble killing Wario.

Falcon's up b is slow and so is his side b. He can hit you before the grab box appears. Wario can at least damage Falcon offstage.
 

Gardex

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Aerial priority is all about hitting the other guy's hurtbox first.

So it depends alot on where and when the aerials are used. Falcon uair will in that case beat out Wario's dair if wario is slighty under Falcon(atleast that's what I think will happen, seeing how small the hitbox is on the top when Wario is doing the dair)
 

teluoborg

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Sorry Smashkng I didn't mean to say that it's easy to grab Wario, just that grabbing can be considered as a KO move in this MU, and a decent one since it goes trough shields and has versatile start-ups like jab or first hit Nair.

I think you're under estimating the range of Falcon's moves. Bair and Utilt are disjointed (Bair is not that disjointed, but enough to deal with Wario's air game (except Dair and bite ofc)) and Uair reaches in front of and behind Falcon.

Sure Wario has a beast drift speed but his aerials are not disjointed enough for him to be completely safe (well, except Dair).
So yes he can weave in and out to minimize the risk, and that's why he's so good, but there always is a window of vulnerability when he tries to land a hit (yeah except with Dair).


@Gardex : I don't see Wario using Dair when he's not above his opponent. Rising Dair ?
 

Psychoace

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^I was going to say this.

And "Falcon can't kill Wario" ?
Falcon has 4 reliable options to kill Wario : Utilt, Uair, Bair and grab.


Also Wario doesn't gimp Falcon easily, it's dumb but the small teleport of Falcon dive goes trough almost all of Wario's aerials, the bike and the fart (maybe not his Dair, this move is too broken).

So the two things you have to fear the most are Dair and Bite.

About the stage choice, the less platforms there are the better it is for Falcon imo.



PS : Wario's hitboxes : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WnkVukU5WOo
The more you know.
platforms give you safer options with up air. Battlefield is falcons best stage.

65/35 dair will **** falcon and he can space it so he won't get grabbed. wario's are also gay and will fart on you.
 

PhantomX

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Grab Release stems from being grabbed, and when that happens, Wario is Falcon's ***** for whatever Falcon plans to do next. If Wario's a fast masher, and can get out of a grab quickly, we only need one pummel before releasing him to the air, where we can knee him, Uair, Usmash, Fsmash(tilted upward), and other things. Wario is indeed near hard to grab, but not impossible. Reading/prediction and reaction is what is required. Falcon mains depend solely on that, so it's not that hard.

That CG mess is a *****, but Falcon mains should never stop moving long enough for Wario to grab them. If Falcon can grab the bike, or keep Wario off the bike, then we've got one less thing to worry about.

What is your ratio for this MU, SmashK?

Also, what stages do you guys suggest taking Wario to on a counterpick and what stages do you suggest banning from him?
Really man? Like... I'm not even really going to discuss this matchup b/c it's pointless, but did you just say you're going to be grabbing Wario, who spends most of his time in the air... but he's not going to be grabbing you? His grab range is larger than yours and your speed is all on the ground... where grabbing happens.
 

Nidtendofreak

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Dies of laughter
*agrees*

Falcon is not going to land a grab against a good Wario. Ever. Terrible range, and not really enough hitstun on his jab to have a good shot at it.

Heck, I find it hard to land a grab against anyone who isn't Ganondorf as Falcon, let alone the character who plays "Don't get grabbed" the best.

Sure, Falcon has his Uair in this match-up...but not much else. Wario's bite beats basically everything Falcon has. Same with the Bike. And probably his Dair.

7-3 Wario's A.

Though to correct Phantom: Falcon has a lot of speed in the air as well. He was among the top 5 overall aerial speed IIRC. Or really close to it, like 6th.
 

teluoborg

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PhantomX said:
...His grab range is larger than yours and your speed is all on the ground... where grabbing happens.
Eh ?
I'm not gonna say that SS is right, but you're using the argument that "Falcon is speedy on the ground" to prove that "Wario can't be grabbed". What ?

This is how I see things, tell me if I'm wrong :
Wario is no MK, he has to come back on the ground every 2 jumps (3 if you use the bike),
+
Falcon has the running (and in some way drift) speed required to chase Wario.
=
Wario cannot land safely away from Falcon.

So yes grabbing Wario is a pain, but it's not impossible.

Also the bike is overrated, it's fun to see how many things get trough it (the most awesome being falcon dive). Moreover, Falcon runs faster.

PS :
The drift speed top 5 :
1-Yoshi
2-Jiggs
3-Wario
4-Wolf
5-Falcon

The drift acceleration top 2 :
1-Wario
2-everyone else

PPS : I don't think it's 7-3, more like 6-4 (on neutrals at least, though I don't know what stages Warios like).
 

Psychoace

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*agrees*

Falcon is not going to land a grab against a good Wario. Ever. Terrible range, and not really enough hitstun on his jab to have a good shot at it.

Heck, I find it hard to land a grab against anyone who isn't Ganondorf as Falcon, let alone the character who plays "Don't get grabbed" the best.
lol then your doing it wrong.
 

Player-3

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*agrees*

Falcon is not going to land a grab against a good Wario. Ever. Terrible range, and not really enough hitstun on his jab to have a good shot at it.

Heck, I find it hard to land a grab against anyone who isn't Ganondorf as Falcon, let alone the character who plays "Don't get grabbed" the best.

Sure, Falcon has his Uair in this match-up...but not much else. Wario's bite beats basically everything Falcon has. Same with the Bike. And probably his Dair.

7-3 Wario's A.

Though to correct Phantom: Falcon has a lot of speed in the air as well. He was among the top 5 overall aerial speed IIRC. Or really close to it, like 6th.
naah falcon can get a grab on wario

but NEVER a shieldgrab

sometimes a grab but still
lol

you dont need a grab to kill wario

just uair
uair
uair
uair
uair
uair
uair
uair
uair
uair
and bair for the kill
 

Sovereign

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Dudes, stop saying shieldgrabbing works on Wario. It'll work once, maybe twice, then if the Wario isn't dumb he'll bite every single shield you put up.

And SS please don't say things like "grabbing Wario is hard but possible, but Warios won't be able to grab Falcon cause he never stops moving", they don't make sense at all.


If it wasn't for Wario's Dair and bite it'd be a good matchup for Falcon, but these two moves alone take away a lot of Falcon's options. Wario clearly has the advantage as long as he doesn't get in grab range. That's why it's not 55:45.

And the GR > knee doesn't KO at 80 nor 90%, because of Wario's weight + drifting speed it's more like 100-110%
Don't paraphrase what I said. If you're going to quote me, do it off my post, instead of what you just did, because I said nothing of the sort.

I said, "Falcon mains should not be sitting still long enough for Wario to grab them..."

The same does apply to Wario, but it's not impossible on either end.

SK, grabs on Wario are and can be considered useful tools in the MU despite what think it would look like at higher levels of play. It's nothing to bait, react, and score a grab on Wario.

This match is not that hard. I severely doubt it being harder than 60:40 :wario:

Anything higher than that is a complete over estimation of how good Wario is compared to Falcon. Falcon has tools to combat Wario. Some don't recognize it because all they see is a character with a lack of "disjointed" hit boxes.

For stages, I cp to my favorite stage, Lylate Cruise, and when I took a high level Wario there, in an offline fight, the match was not nearly as hard as one would think. Platforms help prevent Wario's Bike pieces camping, and they help Falcon's combos by a lot. If Wario was to land on a platform from a previous hit, the limited space would make it that much easier to score hits, tech or no tech.
 

Sovereign

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Really man? Like... I'm not even really going to discuss this matchup b/c it's pointless, but did you just say you're going to be grabbing Wario, who spends most of his time in the air... but he's not going to be grabbing you? His grab range is larger than yours and your speed is all on the ground... where grabbing happens.
Why is that? Just share your opinion. It doesn't hurt to shed light. It's an MU discussion. I don't think holding back your opinion would help anymore than it would hurt.

I keep hearing this mess about good/high/top Wario's won't get grabbed since they stay in the air, but like (insert person here) said, they have to land. Wario only has one kill move in the air... well two: Waft and Uair. Falcon has excellent vertical weight, so he won't die easily from a Uair, but Waft will be trouble, although it is somewhat predictable. Once Wario manages to get Falcon to higher percentages he will spend his time on the ground, trying to get the KO, so eventually he'll get grabbed. Unless he walls Falcon off stage with Fair, Bair, Dair, and Nair.
 

Acedude55

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oh lawdy lawdy what happened in here

My ratio for this matchup is 35-65

I'll come along some other time to give my words on it
 

DMG

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DMG#931
...

What happened in this thread? My eyes are bleeding. The visual pain I am suffering...

Oh god lmao.

Seriously though, this matchup is 60:40, possibly 65:35. Shield grab, uncommon. Regular grab, very possible.

Best things for Falcon are retreated aerials. That and Dash attack (yes I said it, dash attack).
 

Sovereign

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...

What happened in this thread? My eyes are bleeding. The visual pain I am suffering...

Oh god lmao.

Seriously though, this matchup is 60:40, possibly 65:35. Shield grab, uncommon. Regular grab, very possible.

Best things for Falcon are retreated aerials. That and Dash attack (yes I said it, dash attack).
Agreed

10Agreeds
 

Sovereign

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It would appear there is a LARGE disagreement on the Match up Ratio

I suggest an online match just to get a better kind of idea of Wario vs Falcon
You are going to get burned so bad by the tourney-goers/offliners. They don't approve of online matches, as Wifi's lag makes the matchup unrealistic and can waver in one to another character's favor, instantly.

I don't mind online matches, since it'll give us a brief overview of how hard or not that hard the matchup really is.
 

DMG

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It better be something good like Ganon's guaranteed Warlock Punch from grab release.
 

DMG

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DMG#931
I'm dead serious. There was even a thread about it on the Ganon boards. It died cause people were like "It doesn't work" and kept complaining/spamming/trolling even though we had video proof and top players confirm that it worked.
 

Sovereign

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I'm dead serious. There was even a thread about it on the Ganon boards. It died cause people were like "It doesn't work" and kept complaining/spamming/trolling even though we had video proof and top players confirm that it worked.
I'm a sucker for anything that sounds good, so vid please? Poor Wario.
 

PhantomX

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The main thing that makes top level Wario players harder to grab than the lower level ones is that they buffer jumps out of everything they do, meaning you have like 4 frames to grab them. However, the same Wario players will know your grab range and thus space away from it. Add to that the fact that Wario's nair is very low in delay and can be activated right as he hits the ground and you'll be hardpressed to get the grab (it's hard for even entirely grab centric characters that can grab Wario out of almost all his aerials/jumps like D3 and ICs). Wario's standing grab is deceptively long, and when buffered on landing he gets a little extra slide. I know Falcon isn't slow in the air, but he's certainly not going to CATCH Wario in the air (since, as you guys just pointed out, he's slower than Wario on it). Also, when your only good tool on our character is grab, do you know what we're going to make sure to bait and punish you for (which we do amazingly due to our aerial acceleration and movespeed which allows for crossups or feigned approaches)? Your grabs.

Nair gimps Falcon, hard nair has a fairly horizontal trajectory and weak nair hits falcon out of UpB startup (as does fair). Wario can hit Falcon all the way to the blast zone and then bike up to safety. Gimping him isn't hard. Only good thing about this matchup for you guys really is that since grab is dangerous, you won't have to worry about much, if any, fsmashes, which do 21% a pop. Your priority is garbage, while Wario has one of the highest ground priorities around.

The reason I said it's not worth it to argue is b/c for whatever reason low tier mains always like to overrate the matchups in their favor, so I've just stopped caring about them (take Salem as an extreme example).
 

DMG

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Falcon doesn't lose that hard to Wario, but to suggest something like Falcon winning? That would be foolhardy.
 

teluoborg

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We need to bring Darky back from the dead :/
Upair is great, but it's not a lethal tool. It certainly is your most (if not only) reliable move in the matchup :\
Bair has good uses here too. Good ko power and great (disjointed ?) horizontal range.

I think Wario will win in the air if he's above or below Falcon, and that Falcon can and must use his mobility to avoid this position.

Then again, gimping Falcon with Wario is not easy, since Falcon dive goes trough a lot of Wario's aerials (Fair, Nair, Bair) his bike and his fart.

I'm not the kind that overrates his low tier main, but imo what trully destroys Falcon is range.
And Wario has a crappy range compared to his position on the tier list.

That's why I stick to a 60-40 "Wario has advantageous tools in this matchup (mainly Dair and bite), but it's by no mean unwinnable for Falcon".
 
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