Captain falcon vs Pokemon trainer: Falcon's advantage - indepth

[Zeallyx]

alright, so I'd say:

falcon > squirtle: 60-40
falcon > charizard: 55-45 (imo, because:

flame thrower can be a pain, I agree, but it is also punishable, as I've seen it used as an aerial approach, wich was easy to counter. As an edge guard, flame thrower can rack up damage dangerously fast, but in this angle, it is counterable with falcon's up b. even though DI out+up b>sweetspot the ledge is safer.

Also, as charizard is a large opponent, he is very sweet kneeable. Even though the knee is quite a endlagging move, the IASA frames in the knee's ending lag make it shorter, not much, but it can safe our lives.

We wont fastfall the knee often though, only to punish baited smashes/jabs etc.

The SH endinglagless knee can sweet spot charizard fast, giving him 19% damage, and its quite easily done in my experience. And it can also KO offcourse.

If it wasn't for the jab interruptions and/or rocksmash, I'd say this matchup was even. But with falcon's speed and moves that seem to work on charizard nicely (SH endinglagless knee and Uair due to charizards laggy Dair for example) I'd say falcon has an advantage over charizard.

and:

Ivysaur>falcon: 60-40

Ivy's bullet seed and some of his arials, his Fsmash (although it has quite some after lag, it can KO nicely and is great for punishing) and razor leaf to force an approach, I say ivysaur is the hardest for falcon to deal with, and has an advantage over falcon.

With a 60-40 in falcon's favor
a 55-45 in falcon's favor
and a 60-40 in PT favor, I say the overall matchup is:

58-42: falcon's favor. (weird number though )

 

[Xiahou Dun]

With a 60-40 in falcon's favor
a 55-45 in falcon's favor
and a 60-40 in PT favor, I say the overall matchup is:

58-42: falcon's favor. (weird number though )

I've said before. That's not how a matchup ratio works with PT. They just quite smply won't use the disadvantaged poke against you. You take the middle ground between the ebst and second best matchups in the Trainer's favour to calculate overall.

So it would be 52.5-47.5 in Trainer's favour. But to be honest I'm not going to discuss numbers. You can save that for your actal Matchup thread, I don't care for ratio's they're mostly stupid and irrelevent. I'm only gonna talk about what Falcon can do and what Trainer can do back.

 

[Zeallyx]

I've said before. That's not how a matchup ratio works with PT. They just quite smply won't use the disadvantaged poke against you. You take the middle ground between the ebst and second best matchups in the Trainer's favour to calculate overall.

So it would be 52.5-47.5 in Trainer's favour. But to be honest I'm not going to discuss numbers. You can save that for your actal Matchup thread, I don't care for ratio's they're mostly stupid and irrelevent. I'm only gonna talk about what Falcon can do and what Trainer can do back.

Wait..I don't understand:
Falcon has the advantage over two of three pokemon, and its still PT advantage

 

[Xiahou Dun]

Wait..I don't understand:
Falcon has the advantage over two of three pokemon, and its still PT advantage

PT can easily go a match using Charizard minimally just to stock tank and allow Ivy's fatigue to recover and Squirtle barely/not at all. Sure having an advantage against two and a disadvantage against one seems great in the numbers but you'll end up fighting the vast majority of the game against the Pokemon you are disadvantaged against. (Not that I agree you have the advantage over both Charizard and Squirtle but meh I've heard worse...)

 

[Zeallyx]

PT can easily go a match using Charizard minimally just to stock tank and allow Ivy's fatigue to recover and Squirtle barely/not at all. Sure having an advantage against two and a disadvantage against one seems great in the numbers but you'll end up fighting the vast majority of the game against the Pokemon you are disadvantaged against. (Not that I agree you have the advantage over both Charizard and Squirtle but meh I've heard worse...)

I see..
still, the disadvantage against ivy is 60-40, and when we get to KO ivy, we still get to fight one of his other pokemon.

I don't completely agree with the way you look at it, but it does seem logical, but still..kinda..out there? I'm not sure how to discribe it, I just don't completely agree

 

[SmashBrother2008]

Pokemon Trainer mains are busy enough trying to reason with arrogant High Tiers

Then he proceeds to say...

Why bother spending more pointless time arguing with the worst character in the game

LOL WUT

 

[Demenise]

I think you're underrating Charizard.

Every time I see you mention Charizard, you're mentioning his lag. You're taking about how you can hit Charizard before the Rock Smash, meaning you get a free hit. You're talking about Charizard missing a DAir (which I doubt will happen if Charizard is being played right) and getting a knee in. You're talking about Charizard jumping and missing with Flamethrower, or you being able to Up B him out of it.

No, just not.

First off, Rock Smash. A good Pokemon Trainer isn't going to run into your face and Rock Smash. A good Pokemon Trainer SPACES IT so you can't hit them before the move is executed. After the move is executed, you're not going to approach him; Side B lasts way too long and is much, much too disjointed for that. If you take any sort of risk, you're pretty much asking to be killed. Of course, you can take advantage of the lag, but ONLY if Charizard messes up.

Second DAir. Charizard won't throw around DAir like it's a lagless attack. It's a spike with a prolonged hitbox. When recovering, expect yourself to be intercepted; it's highly unlikely you'll get through the attack alive. Again, if they, for example, fastfall a DAir on stage, the Charizard will be punished, but how often will that happen?

Flamethrower. If done at the right time, it definitely can stop your approach and recovery off of the edge. According you, you can Up B this attack. However, you can't use it right away; it won't hit the second you get caught in the Flamethrower. If he continues the flames, you Up B him, you win. Woohoo. However, what if Charizard stops it right before you Up B? If such thing happens, you'll leap into midair. You'll be completely vulnerable to an attack, costing you even more than if you simply DIed out of it. Not the best risk.

Charizard is a MUCH better character than you give him credit for. 55:45 Charizard at least, in my opinion.



By the way, I play both characters often and do know how they function.

 

[Charizard92]

Actually, Xiahou dun is pretty much right. When you look at a matchup against PT's Pokemon, each one has a different set of odds, so It is possible to get a couple of advantages. When calculating PT as a whole, any good PT will try to avoid using his worst Pokemon (in this case Squirtle), so a PT mainer will start with Ivysaur, and continue until fatigue sets in (or 1.5 minutes for the PT who likes to have a certain set of numbers), switch to Charizard (which is close to even) and if Charizard dies, beat you away a bit with Squirtle until a moment of opportunity arrives where PT can switch freely. Because of this, the matchup against PT as a whole is the average of the TOP 2 Pokemon instead of all 3. In that retrospect, it is 55:45 PT advantage, instead of 45:55 C. Falcon advantage. There will be a day where you will win against somebody, PT ain't that person.

Edit: OK, this was written before Demenise posted, but still, same thing.

 

[Wogrim]

alright, so I'd say:

falcon > squirtle: 60-40
falcon > charizard: 55-45 (imo, because:

flame thrower can be a pain, I agree, but it is also punishable, as I've seen it used as an aerial approach, wich was easy to counter. As an edge guard, flame thrower can rack up damage dangerously fast, but in this angle, it is counterable with falcon's up b. even though DI out+up b>sweetspot the ledge is safer.

Also, as charizard is a large opponent, he is very sweet kneeable. Even though the knee is quite a endlagging move, the IASA frames in the knee's ending lag make it shorter, not much, but it can safe our lives.

We wont fastfall the knee often though, only to punish baited smashes/jabs etc.

The SH endinglagless knee can sweet spot charizard fast, giving him 19% damage, and its quite easily done in my experience. And it can also KO offcourse.

If it wasn't for the jab interruptions and/or rocksmash, I'd say this matchup was even. But with falcon's speed and moves that seem to work on charizard nicely (SH endinglagless knee and Uair due to charizards laggy Dair for example) I'd say falcon has an advantage over charizard.

and:

Ivysaur>falcon: 60-40

Ivy's bullet seed and some of his arials, his Fsmash (although it has quite some after lag, it can KO nicely and is great for punishing) and razor leaf to force an approach, I say ivysaur is the hardest for falcon to deal with, and has an advantage over falcon.

With a 60-40 in falcon's favor
a 55-45 in falcon's favor
and a 60-40 in PT favor, I say the overall matchup is:

58-42: falcon's favor. (weird number though )

Green stuff = wtf logic is that?

 

[SmashBrother2008]

Green stuff = wtf logic is that?

I think he's talking about ISIA frames that charizard is littered with allowing CF's quick and frequent jabs to break up his game. Rock smash? idk were 2knee was going with that...

But he's got a point.

 

[F5Hazardousdoc]

Argh.. this topic moved fast in a few hours.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xiahou Dun
Pokemon Trainer mains are busy enough trying to reason with arrogant High Tiers
Then he proceeds to say...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xiahou Dun
Why bother spending more pointless time arguing with the worst character in the game
LOL WUT


Exactly what I was thinking. Way to sound JUST LIKE THE GANON BOARDS. lol we got AT's so we're better dan u ok

:|

I feel inclined to ignore every post you make for your ignorance...

Gawd, I'm off to play KirinBlaze, and when I come back I'll bring back what I learned about Pkmn trainer ok?

 

[Demenise]

Actually, Xiahou dun is pretty much right. When you look at a matchup against PT's Pokemon, each one has a different set of odds, so It is possible to get a couple of advantages. When calculating PT as a whole, any good PT will try to avoid using his worst Pokemon (in this case Squirtle), so a PT mainer will start with Ivysaur, and continue until fatigue sets in (or 1.5 minutes for the PT who likes to have a certain set of numbers), switch to Charizard (which is close to even) and if Charizard dies, beat you away a bit with Squirtle until a moment of opportunity arrives where PT can switch freely. Because of this, the matchup against PT as a whole is the average of the TOP 2 Pokemon instead of all 3. In that retrospect, it is 55:45 PT advantage, instead of 45:55 C. Falcon advantage. There will be a day where you will win against somebody, PT ain't that person.

Edit: OK, this was written before Demenise posted, but still, same thing.

Your post is actually a lot different than mine and cover separate topics; why are you thinking that mine has any relation to your thougt? o.o

 

[F5Hazardousdoc]

Back, and with alot of interesting things.

Ok, I think this matchup's even.

Against Squirtle: The CG is legit, very legit. The uair can be landed too, you just gotta not screw up. Squirtle is a tough bugger to catch though, but has to get close to fight, so its a CG fest. However, squirtle can still do some damage if you're not careful, so I'd be wary.
65:35 Falcons favor against squirtle.

Against Ivy: Ivy's range is a b**** to get past. However, Ivy has a chunk of lag after moves and is ALOT easier to grab than squirtle. Iyy's aerial game is predictable and easy to even outrange with uair. Offstage, one falcon dive = death to Ivy. The grab release to uair is also legit, another option for getting ivy into the air and offstage.
55:45 Falcon's favor

Against charizard: ****. Yeah he'll **** you. Grab range is HUUUUUUUUGE and rock smash hurts hard. Too bad falcon's fast enough to avoid it. A predicted rock smash has enough lag on it to warrant use of falcon punch. Big target for knees, nairs, hell, whatever. Charizard's spike WILL own you, BAD. Charizard basically pulls a bowser on you with grabs and stuff.
65:35 Charizard's favor.

I'll say 50:50 Neutral. My matches with Kirin went both ways, mostly depending on how well he did with squirtle. Outside of that and the occasional WTF moment, like the game freezing for about 5 seconds JUST AT THE MOMENT I NIPPLE SPIKE HIM *so EPIC* and him dair spiking me, but I meteor cancel perfectly into a falcon dive stage spike, and him dairing me at 30% for KOs... TWICE.

BIG NOTE: During the course of the match, we happened upon Battlefield. I grab released squirtle, and he hit the platform, and it dawned on me to knee. Its unconfirmed, but I believe the knee may be unavoidable if he lands on the platform, or at the very least VERY HARD TO AVOID. Kirin said that he tried to stop it, but lag could be the culprit. Could set up into a uair to push him off for a Nudge Combo.

 

[Tenki]

Against Ivy: Ivy's range is a b**** to get past. However, Ivy has a chunk of lag after moves and is ALOT easier to grab than squirtle. Ivy's aerial game is predictable and easy to even outrange with uair. Offstage, one falcon dive = death to Ivy. The grab release to uair is also legit, another option for getting ivy into the air and offstage.
55:45 Falcon's favor

just a note, if someone's aerial game is predictable, it's a player fault, not a character fault. Unless of course it's something like "AHH I MISSED A LAGGY MOVE, NOW HE'S GONNA KNEE ME!", because that's just you eating a punishment.

Ivysaur tends to be the worst of most PT's pokemon.



Did he space with F-tilts and B-airs? U-air definitely won't be outranging B-air, especially if Ivy is doing them out of SHFF's (he can end it almost laglessly and SH a second B-air to continue it)

 

[F5Hazardousdoc]

just a note, if someone's aerial game is predictable, it's a player fault, not a character fault. Unless of course it's something like "AHH I MISSED A LAGGY MOVE, NOW HE'S GONNA KNEE ME!", because that's just you eating a punishment.

Ivysaur tends to be the worst of most PT's pokemon.



Did he space with F-tilts and B-airs? U-air definitely won't be outranging B-air, especially if Ivy is doing them out of SHFF's (he can end it almost laglessly and SH a second B-air to continue it)

Yes, but thats the point. You know what Ivysaur is gonna do considering where you are. Ivy's aerials are just too one directional. Bair being the most versatile of them all, but even then... If I'm in front of you, fair. Behind, bair. Below, bair/dair/nair, and above, uair. When I see you coming at me I know you're gonna fair or nair, probably nair. Not many options in the air, but its good that Ivy's got a decent anti-air game. I try to bait moves out of the ivy, and if he doesn't give me any, I'll utilt spam him into giving me a ftilt so I can hop over and bair. Ivy's range is nothing to sneer at, but he's definately got nothing good against falcon.

 

[Wogrim]

What kind of grab stuff does Charizard have to warrant a 65-35? Good grab range doesn't mean a lot if it doesn't combo.

 

[Steeler]

lol you cannot punish rock smash with falcon punch

pt ratios are the most complicated science in this game. you cannot make an accurate pt ratio no matter how hard you try.

because pt is so dependent on skill. matchup ratios hardly matter. so most of the time stuff is just "even" as long as all three pokemon are around that same range.

 

[Wogrim]

lol you cannot punish rock smash with falcon punch

pt ratios are the most complicated science in this game. you cannot make an accurate pt ratio no matter how hard you try.

because pt is so dependent on skill. matchup ratios hardly matter. so most of the time stuff is just "even" as long as all three pokemon are around that same range.

You're not getting off that easy

 

[Tenki]

What kind of grab stuff does Charizard have to warrant a 65-35? Good grab range doesn't mean a lot if it doesn't combo.

Most of these have like a 5-6 frame startup, but
grabrelease>D-tilt (counterable via shield)
grabrelease>regrab (counterable via spotdodge)
grabrelease>rocksmash/F-smash (lol if you spotdodge)

Charizard's D-throw has almost the kind of knockback you can expect from Ness's B-throw, so you'd best DI it to live. Otherwise you'll be dying at 90-110%'s.

Charizard's F/B-throw by the edge just plain sets you up for edgeguard. It's not necessarily combo stuff, but if you get hit by F-air after you double jump, or if you try to recover below the ledge, you're pretty much dead.

Yes, but thats the point. You know what Ivysaur is gonna do considering where you are. Ivy's aerials are just too one directional. Bair being the most versatile of them all, but even then... If I'm in front of you, fair. Behind, bair. Below, bair/dair/nair, and above, uair. When I see you coming at me I know you're gonna fair or nair, probably nair.

That's Ike syndrome.

So what are you going to do since you apparently know Ivysaur will use U-air towards you (since Ivysaur is so one directional with his moves)?

Attack through it? Airdodge?

Keep in mind that Falcon's U-air, despite its range and ability to pop up its hitbox "inside" the opponent's range, is NOT so disjointed and it tends to trade hits more often than straight up outprioritizing stuff.

Logically speaking, if you're trying to get somewhere, attacking would be your best choice, as long as you can break through your opponent's attacks.

If not, then your best choice would be to airdodge.

and if you airdodge?

Ivysaur eats that stuff up :[

 

[Xiahou Dun]

I see..
still, the disadvantage against ivy is 60-40, and when we get to KO ivy, we still get to fight one of his other pokemon.

I don't completely agree with the way you look at it, but it does seem logical, but still..kinda..out there? I'm not sure how to discribe it, I just don't completely agree

Yeah PT matchups are hard to pin something solid on. The way I mentioned is generally accepted as "Close enough".

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xiahou Dun
Pokemon Trainer mains are busy enough trying to reason with arrogant High Tiers
Then he proceeds to say...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xiahou Dun
Why bother spending more pointless time arguing with the worst character in the game
LOL WUT


Exactly what I was thinking. Way to sound JUST LIKE THE GANON BOARDS. lol we got AT's so we're better dan u ok

Way to misquote. The disregarding problem was the meat of what I was talking about. I'm not saying lol who cares about Falcon. I was saying arguing with a character who just because they are a better character then you completely disregards you and labels the matchup their advantage without any discussion on the matter is annoying enough. Now when a Character who is also bad, and widely considered the worst claims an advantage? Well that's fine. Our ego's aren't too inflated to take it. But PT has no patience at all for your if you can't be bothered to give a reasoning and just claim an advantage with little reason or discussion. As I said earlier if the OP wasn't so awful in regards to how PT is actually played this thread would not have gotten off to such an unfriendly start.

TL:DR

Even a character with some reason to be arrogant enough to disregard everything your character can do is annoying.

When a character knows they are bad and among the worst you'd kind of expect them to put some actual thought into claiming an advantage.

I feel inclined to ignore every post you make for your ignorance...

Well please don't miss the one where I explain you took it completely the wrong way eh?

KirinBlaze

0_O

 

[KirinBlaze]

0_O

Very off topic but, I'm guessing that face is because 'KirinBlaze' is the name of 'Xiahou Dun's' 4th weapon from Dynasty Warriors 4? He happens to be one of my more favored characters and I liked the way the weapons name sounded. xD That's all for me.

 

[Xiahou Dun]

No it was err. Some. Other reason...>.>

 

[F5Hazardousdoc]

Very off topic but, I'm guessing that face is because 'KirinBlaze' is the name of 'Xiahou Dun's' 4th weapon from Dynasty Warriors 4? He happens to be one of my more favored characters and I liked the way the weapons name sounded. xD That's all for me.

Mind = Blown

Most of these have like a 5-6 frame startup, but
grabrelease>D-tilt (counterable via shield)
grabrelease>regrab (counterable via spotdodge)
grabrelease>rocksmash/F-smash (lol if you spotdodge)
Yeah, this is why I don't like charizard :'( Also, he'll jab cancel into another grab instead of just regrabbing.

Charizard's D-throw has almost the kind of knockback you can expect from Ness's B-throw, so you'd best DI it to live. Otherwise you'll be dying at 90-110%'s.
Also yes, that thing has some crazy weird knockback on it.

Charizard's F/B-throw by the edge just plain sets you up for edgeguard. It's not necessarily combo stuff, but if you get hit by F-air after you double jump, or if you try to recover below the ledge, you're pretty much dead.
Yeah, don't forget bair for edgeguarding, while its hitbox is smaller than fair's, its more reliable, and it'll KO Falcon this close to the blastzone.

That's Ike syndrome.
Ike syndrome is getting jab locked by Kirk or Renegade. XD
Ike's aerials aren't one directional, Nair covers all sides, Fair covers above and below, and uair can be used to drop on people. Dair and bair are the only directional moves, and I CAN PREDICT THEM JUST AS EASILY.

So what are you going to do since you apparently know Ivysaur will use U-air towards you (since Ivysaur is so one directional with his moves)?
Avoid em. Like I would if I could predict Marths/MKs/Wario's... BUT I CAN'T.

Attack through it? Airdodge?
Lolno. AVOID. Airdodge and DI away. Uair doesn't have RANGE. Fair has range, but it doesn't reach up or down much. So I'd just avoid getting close in the air except under my OWN power.

Keep in mind that Falcon's U-air, despite its range and ability to pop up its hitbox "inside" the opponent's range, is NOT so disjointed and it tends to trade hits more often than straight up outprioritizing stuff.
You said uair, why in all of hell would I be dropping Falcon's uair on somebody? I'd use uair's range to beat out dair, bair *the underside*,fair *the underside* and nair.

Logically speaking, if you're trying to get somewhere, attacking would be your best choice, as long as you can break through your opponent's attacks.
If I am approaching, it'd be with grabs, jabs or utilts. Ivy's anti air game is too strong, but his ground game is weak to falcon's speed. Only approaches in the air would be if he were in the air, or if he just used razor leaf or is jabbing/dtilting

If not, then your best choice would be to airdodge.
You could... NOT GET CLOSE

and if you airdodge?

Ivysaur eats that stuff up :[

Yeah PT matchups are hard to pin something solid on. The way I mentioned is generally accepted as "Close enough".
Sounds like "lets just ignore the fact that we *might* have a disadvantage to twist things our way. YAY"

Way to misquote. The disregarding problem was the meat of what I was talking about. I'm not saying lol who cares about Falcon. I was saying arguing with a character who just because they are a better character then you completely disregards you and labels the matchup their advantage without any discussion on the matter is annoying enough. Now when a Character who is also bad, and widely considered the worst claims an advantage? Well that's fine. Our ego's aren't too inflated to take it. But PT has no patience at all for your if you can't be bothered to give a reasoning and just claim an advantage with little reason or discussion. As I said earlier if the OP wasn't so awful in regards to how PT is actually played this thread would not have gotten off to such an unfriendly start.

TL:DR

Even a character with some reason to be arrogant enough to disregard everything your character can do is annoying.

When a character knows they are bad and among the worst you'd kind of expect them to put some actual thought into claiming an advantage.
I'm definitely not trying to say Pkmn trainer is garbage, but to judge falcon because of his tier spot and simply say "We have better things to do, wait in line" won't suffice. You can bicker with the top tiers all you want, but if you're going to show a condescending side to somebody lower on the tier list, then I'll feel free to make all the assumptions I want. Which I will continue to make, because you still are holding this "Falcon is last so he's GOTTA have no way to win" air about you. I've had this argument before, all the falcon mains want is RESPECT. We can knee you just as well as you can dthrow > dair spike.

The reason this topic didn't start off so well due to our lack of knowledge on PK trainer is... well NONE OF US MAIN HIM, we're using Falcon! I thought that this was self explanatory, but yet you try to use this to DISCREDIT us. TKONTK puts ALOT of thought into his topics, he's probably one of the most determined falcon mainers here... We just don't PLAY pkmn trainer, so obviously we wouldn't know how he works. But don't come here, claming "you guys are such idiots, thats not how pkmn trainer plays, we can do this, this, and this to you", and totally ignore that falcon has tricks of his own. That's simply the reverse of Falcon mains not knowing how pkmn trainer plays.

TL:DR
The pot calling the kettle black. Double standards are bad, ok?


Well please don't miss the one where I explain you took it completely the wrong way eh?
Oh trust me, you make yourself PERFECTLY clear /sarcasm

lol you cannot punish rock smash with falcon punch
I said "warrants" the use of Falcon Punch should a prediction go correct. Lots of cooldown on Rock Smash, and correct spacing can avoid the rock chunks.

pt ratios are the most complicated science in this game. you cannot make an accurate pt ratio no matter how hard you try.
Aka, lets pretend our disadvantage doesn't exist so we can win argument. INFALLABLE logic.

because pt is so dependent on skill. matchup ratios hardly matter. so most of the time stuff is just "even" as long as all three pokemon are around that same range.
I loled. Are you quite finished?
Do you know what NEUTRAL MATCHUP means? If you do, then you wouldn't have to repeat the exact definition of it to everyone here who already DOES know.
And no, skill != matchup ratios. I'm not even GONNA get into this one... if you don't know what matchup ratios do, then I suggest you leave the topic *opens door*

 

[Xiahou Dun]

Sounds like "lets just ignore the fact that we *might* have a disadvantage to twist things our way. YAY"

Maybe. I guess some PT Mains do this. I however just can't be bothered to give a matchup ratio because I couldn't care less for a number ratio even if I tried really hard. I'm just talking about the matchup based on what moves can and can't be used and how. I'll leave other people to bicker about a difference in percentages. :/ Besides if you have 1 pokemon you completely wreck 1 that has an advantage on you and one close to neutral and call it your advantage by terms of evening out then you're just ignoring that you DEFINATELY have a disadvantage to twist things your way as the disadvantaged Pokemon will simply not see the fight at all.

Which I will continue to make, because you still are holding this "Falcon is last so he's GOTTA have no way to win" air about you.

Heh you have the complete wrong end of the stick again. Let me just say it as quickly and simply as I can.

Falcon does not get wrecked by Pokemon Trainer. It is possible and likely that he may have a small advantage although I feel it's more towards neutral or slightly in Trainers favour, regardless it's close to neutral and at worst a small advantage to one or the other. I'm not sure yet.

Now I got that one out of the way. Stop telling me I'm saying Captain sucks and can't possibly have an advantage. I'm not judging your character just your knowledge of the Character you are talking about.

I only had a problem with the MASSIVE lack of thought that seemed to be put into the first post. Everything about Pokemon Trainer was completely baseless and assumed. Had you had a lot more thought put into it prior to claiming an advantage PT mains may have came in and agreed with you or debated a few points but remained civil. Maybe TKONTK is a good member and a good Falcon but he's not good at analysing Trainer's moves and certainly shouldn't be calling an advantage base don his analysis.

The reason this topic didn't start off so well due to our lack of knowledge on PK trainer is... well NONE OF US MAIN HIM, we're using Falcon!
I thought that this was self explanatory, but yet you try to use this to DISCREDIT us. TKONTK puts ALOT of thought into his topics, he's probably one of the most determined falcon mainers here...

Of course this is understandable. Pokemon Trainer is among the least well understood by other characters. But lack of knowledge is fine. But it wasn't admitted. Had he simply said "I feel Falcon may have an advantage in this matchup but I don't know much about them" and asked for input on the matchup it would have been fine. But he gave his baseless info and labelled it an advantage based on that.

We just don't PLAY pkmn trainer, so obviously we wouldn't know how he works. But don't come here, claming "you guys are such idiots, thats not how pkmn trainer plays, we can do this, this, and this to you", and totally ignore that falcon has tricks of his own. That's simply the reverse of Falcon mains not knowing how pkmn trainer plays.

Eh I gave as much Falcon advice as I could in the thread personally. See: the ability to knee through Fair with good spacing and Up Air juggle to take advantage of Charizard's Blindspot below him and general juggle potential that comes with being a heavy to how to escape Ivy's Bullet Seed. Yes I had more info about Trainer then Falcon as I know more about him but I take offense to you saying I was biased and disregarded what Falcon could do. The only thing I personally tried to do in my posts was actually inform you about what Pokemon Trainer does and can do, you already know Falcons moves and if you understood Pokemon Trainer better too then you could get back to the matchup and look at if you truly have an advantage. I'm only asking you to know Trainer's move before saying you have an advantage.

TL:DR
The pot calling the kettle black. Double standards are bad, ok?

Not really. I'm not saying Falcon sucks so we have an advantage. I'm saying Falcon might have an advantage but you need the right info to base it on first before you call it out.

And I'm tired of repeatng myself so much so if you take it wrong again I'm not gonne bother with you anymore. I don't mind being disagreed with but when you're being very hostile to me over somethign I never said in the first place I don't really have any patience for it. If it helps any with assuring you I'm not biased I don't main Pokemon Trainer. I'm just here to inform because I know a lot about them...

Btw Squirtle's Jab is Frame 1 fast with ridiculous usefulness and is annoying as hell to fight against it but you can actually shield the 2nd hit afte rbeing hti by the first if you're fast enough(Unless you'r eon high percentages as the first hit will then raise you off teh floor) obviously if the PT doesn't quickly cancel the jab into a jab jab grab they are gonna get grabbed. Which bearing in mind the previously mentioned Grab Release...Yeah it's very useful for you as you can imagine.

 

[Tenki]

I need to respond outside of quotes so people can address my points.


[1] Ike syndrome is getting jab locked by Kirk or Renegade. XD
Ike's aerials aren't one directional, Nair covers all sides, Fair covers above and below, and uair can be used to drop on people. Dair and bair are the only directional moves, and I CAN PREDICT THEM JUST AS EASILY.


[2] Avoid em. Like I would if I could predict Marths/MKs/Wario's... BUT I CAN'T.


[3] Lolno. AVOID. Airdodge and DI away. Uair doesn't have RANGE. Fair has range, but it doesn't reach up or down much. So I'd just avoid getting close in the air except under my OWN power.


[4] You said uair, why in all of hell would I be dropping Falcon's uair on somebody? I'd use uair's range to beat out dair, bair *the underside*,fair *the underside* and nair.

[5] If I am approaching, it'd be with grabs, jabs or utilts. Ivy's anti air game is too strong, but his ground game is weak to falcon's speed. Only approaches in the air would be if he were in the air, or if he just used razor leaf or is jabbing/dtilting


[6] You could... NOT GET CLOSE

[1] What I meant are that people assume Ike's aerials are so slow and predictable. But they turn that around on people just as easily.

[2] I'm not talking about SPECIFIC AERIAL MOVES because that'd be kind of pointless to have to predict a SPECIFIC DIRECTION of aerial as opposed to WHEN the aerial comes out/will be used.

[3] Erm. I didn't specify this, but I meant "You're falling downwards, and you know Ivysaur is going to use U-air on you (since it's one directional, and obviously the aerial that Ivysaur will use when you're above it, right?)

[4] I don't believe I mentioned 'dropping' a U-air on someone. So why the hell would you? I think Ivysaur's D-air might have a bit of range below it. Either way, if it start up its D-air as you get in U-air range, your U-air will either get outprioritized or trade hits. The other aerials you mentioned are a matter of the PT player choosing the 'wrong direction', since Ivysaur's aerials only hit 'one direction'

[5] and [6] are both back to the "you're falling down and Ivysaur is under you" situation from [3]. My fault for not specifying the situation. Since Ivysaur's aerials hit one direction, I thought you'd assume that if Ivysaur is using U-air, you're above it, right?

 

[Jim Morrison]

[4] I don't believe I mentioned 'dropping' a U-air on someone. So why the hell would you? I think Ivysaur's D-air might have a bit of range below it. Either way, if it start up its D-air as you get in U-air range, your U-air will either get outprioritized or trade hits. The other aerials you mentioned are a matter of the PT player choosing the 'wrong direction', since Ivysaur's aerials only hit 'one direction'

B-air is a half circle around him, creating sort of a shield.

 

[DoB04]

imo as hard as it is to get a solid matchup percentage in pt, you cant ignore a few stuff
example
falcon has a major advanatge on squirtle (chain grab, free up air, POSSIBLE infinite, POSSIBLE free knee on platforms)
ivy has a GOOD advantage over falcon. Why? because falcon also has a few things going for him. he can easily edge guard an ivysaur offstage since he can't RAR a bair to space out, he has a free uair which can lead to edgeguarding or a kill at really high percentages (which means racking up damage is a nice strategy)
despite this, ivy still has range, a projectile and priority that tops falcon. so although the advanatge is there, it's still easy for the falcon to turn the table against him with those few advantages he has. Thats why ivy's advantage is relatively small.
now Charizard, Charizard doesnt have a reliable projectile, although he does have good spacing.
he's big, which is an auto falcon advantage mainly because of knees and up bs...
they both have good grab games, tilts, smashes and both of their recoveries are moderate...
overall, i say they are even.
so a PT when fighting a falcon, will have one GOOD advantage (ivy) one neutral advanatge (charizard) and one MAJOR disadvantage (squirtle)
when fighting a PT, he'll rely on ivy and charizard, and despite ivy's advantage, falcon can easily get around him if he manages to get him offstage or rack up damage for a free uair (note that this will not always happen, but you can't ignore this small advantage)
when fighting charizard, the matchup is even.
when squirtle is inevitably brought out, falcon has that big advantage going for him, and depending on his percentage, he WILL kill squirtle. squirtle's chances of turning the tables on him are very minor (since squirtle does not have anything major going for him)
for that reason, i say this is falcon's advantage with a 55-45

 

[Tenki]

imo as hard as it is to get a solid matchup percentage in pt, you cant ignore a few stuff
example
falcon has a major advanatge on squirtle (chain grab, free up air, POSSIBLE infinite, POSSIBLE free knee on platforms)

...

now Charizard, Charizard doesnt have a reliable projectile, although he does have good spacing.
he's big, which is an auto falcon advantage mainly because of knees and up bs...
they both have good grab games, tilts, smashes and both of their recoveries are moderate...
overall, i say they are even.
so a PT when fighting a falcon, will have one GOOD advantage (ivy) one neutral advanatge (charizard) and one MAJOR disadvantage (squirtle)
when fighting a PT, he'll rely on ivy and charizard, and despite ivy's advantage, falcon can easily get around him if he manages to get him offstage or rack up damage for a free uair (note that this will not always happen, but you can't ignore this small advantage)
when fighting charizard, the matchup is even.

similarly, you kind of can't ignore Squirtle's priority, low-lag landings/ease of finished/"autocancelled" aerials and aerial movement (you know, why Wario doesn't get grabbed so easily?)

as for Charizard, what does up-B have to do with Charizard's (or for that matter, anyone's) size? It's a matter of either outprioritizing up-B (see, Charizard's D-air off-stage) or airdodging/spotdodging it. Also, even though larger target = easier knee and such, you'll have to worry more about getting them in a state where they can't shield or dodge or outprioritize you more than worrying about getting the placement right lol.

Now, I'm not implying that Charizard is un-kneeable, but it's kind of your reasoning that I'm concerned with here. Size doesn't matter as much as finding the openings to knee - finding the moves that you can punish with knee, and making sure that they're common enough to be 'reliable' to punish.

 

[Charizard92]

Your post is actually a lot different than mine and cover separate topics; why are you thinking that mine has any relation to your thougt? o.o

Well, I was writing this before you posted, but the same logic of my post still applies.

Oh, and actually try to listen to us, we know more about our character than you do. I know that saying you suck because of your placement on the tier list is bad (Toon Link definitely knows this), and that you could easily rise, but using logic that is outright faulty is NOT going to help.

 

[Darxmarth23]

Im tellin you, we need someone from the SBR to represent us.

And to me we need this fast because the current tierlist is crap.

 

[F5Hazardousdoc]

Maybe. I guess some PT Mains do this. I however just can't be bothered to give a matchup ratio because I couldn't care less for a number ratio even if I tried really hard. I'm just talking about the matchup based on what moves can and can't be used and how. I'll leave other people to bicker about a difference in percentages. :/ Besides if you have 1 pokemon you completely wreck 1 that has an advantage on you and one close to neutral and call it your advantage by terms of evening out then you're just ignoring that you DEFINATELY have a disadvantage to twist things your way as the disadvantaged Pokemon will simply not see the fight at all.



Heh you have the complete wrong end of the stick again. Let me just say it as quickly and simply as I can.

Falcon does not get wrecked by Pokemon Trainer. It is possible and likely that he may have a small advantage although I feel it's more towards neutral or slightly in Trainers favour, regardless it's close to neutral and at worst a small advantage to one or the other. I'm not sure yet.

Now I got that one out of the way. Stop telling me I'm saying Captain sucks and can't possibly have an advantage. I'm not judging your character just your knowledge of the Character you are talking about.

I only had a problem with the MASSIVE lack of thought that seemed to be put into the first post. Everything about Pokemon Trainer was completely baseless and assumed. Had you had a lot more thought put into it prior to claiming an advantage PT mains may have came in and agreed with you or debated a few points but remained civil. Maybe TKONTK is a good member and a good Falcon but he's not good at analysing Trainer's moves and certainly shouldn't be calling an advantage base don his analysis.



Of course this is understandable. Pokemon Trainer is among the least well understood by other characters. But lack of knowledge is fine. But it wasn't admitted. Had he simply said "I feel Falcon may have an advantage in this matchup but I don't know much about them" and asked for input on the matchup it would have been fine. But he gave his baseless info and labelled it an advantage based on that.




Eh I gave as much Falcon advice as I could in the thread personally. See: the ability to knee through Fair with good spacing and Up Air juggle to take advantage of Charizard's Blindspot below him and general juggle potential that comes with being a heavy to how to escape Ivy's Bullet Seed. Yes I had more info about Trainer then Falcon as I know more about him but I take offense to you saying I was biased and disregarded what Falcon could do. The only thing I personally tried to do in my posts was actually inform you about what Pokemon Trainer does and can do, you already know Falcons moves and if you understood Pokemon Trainer better too then you could get back to the matchup and look at if you truly have an advantage. I'm only asking you to know Trainer's move before saying you have an advantage.





Not really. I'm not saying Falcon sucks so we have an advantage. I'm saying Falcon might have an advantage but you need the right info to base it on first before you call it out.

And I'm tired of repeatng myself so much so if you take it wrong again I'm not gonne bother with you anymore. I don't mind being disagreed with but when you're being very hostile to me over somethign I never said in the first place I don't really have any patience for it. If it helps any with assuring you I'm not biased I don't main Pokemon Trainer. I'm just here to inform because I know a lot about them...

Btw Squirtle's Jab is Frame 1 fast with ridiculous usefulness and is annoying as hell to fight against it but you can actually shield the 2nd hit afte rbeing hti by the first if you're fast enough(Unless you'r eon high percentages as the first hit will then raise you off teh floor) obviously if the PT doesn't quickly cancel the jab into a jab jab grab they are gonna get grabbed. Which bearing in mind the previously mentioned Grab Release...Yeah it's very useful for you as you can imagine.

My aggression is not directed namely, at you per-se, as it is at the OTHER pkmn trainer mains here who post drivel and think they can get away with it. You probably either got caught in the crossfire of ignorance, or misjudged. You sound far more level headed now then your prior posts, which is good to see. I can haz debatez nao :D Sorry if I focused too far on you.

Actually, I saw a hilarious topic on the fox boards, but if I went into it I'd get off topic. It involved the falco boards trolling so they'd get the fox mains into their matchup topic XD.

Anyways, despite the fact that you CAN switch, the same goes for falcon. Falcon can CAMP Charizard and force you to swap twice, guaranteeing 1 or 2 free shots, a stock *should you refuse*, or a very good matchup *should you switch once*. I'm not saying squirtle is BAD, but the fact that we have guaranteed stuff against him, including a possible infinite, or at the very least a good way to get him offstage with bonus damage, kinda nulls squirtle's good things, like his jab and great air control.

Off the debate, but SQUIRTLE'S JAB IS ONE FRAME? Really? I didn't know that... didn't think that either. I DO know taht his second hit trips you ALOT.

[1] What I meant are that people assume Ike's aerials are so slow and predictable. But they turn that around on people just as easily.

[2] I'm not talking about SPECIFIC AERIAL MOVES because that'd be kind of pointless to have to predict a SPECIFIC DIRECTION of aerial as opposed to WHEN the aerial comes out/will be used.

[3] Erm. I didn't specify this, but I meant "You're falling downwards, and you know Ivysaur is going to use U-air on you (since it's one directional, and obviously the aerial that Ivysaur will use when you're above it, right?)

[4] I don't believe I mentioned 'dropping' a U-air on someone. So why the hell would you? I think Ivysaur's D-air might have a bit of range below it. Either way, if it start up its D-air as you get in U-air range, your U-air will either get outprioritized or trade hits. The other aerials you mentioned are a matter of the PT player choosing the 'wrong direction', since Ivysaur's aerials only hit 'one direction'

[5] and [6] are both back to the "you're falling down and Ivysaur is under you" situation from [3]. My fault for not specifying the situation. Since Ivysaur's aerials hit one direction, I thought you'd assume that if Ivysaur is using U-air, you're above it, right?

1: I play Kirk and Renegade. They got some great Ikes. /offtopic

2: Uhh ok. I forgot what we the debate was here *empty headed*

3: Thats what I meant. You can DI away from Ivy though, which is the whole AVOID step. Ivy doesn't have options *well GOOD ones at least* for edgeguarding.

4: I thought you meant the scenario you were talking about in 3 applied to your uair comment.

5/6: Actually, I just blew off course here. If I were falling towards ivysaur, I'd kick myself for doing it. The main thing I did in all of my matches was stay away from ivysaur, out of his range. If I was forced in.... well thats why falcon doesn't have a very big advantage here. In sheer close range with Ivy getting the first hit, we don't have a good response other than GTFO or jab.

Oh yeah and replying in the comments is easy

 

[Steeler]

tenki is now an honorary pokemon master. good job tenki, you now have the key to the unknown dungeon

 

[Xiahou Dun]

3: Thats what I meant. You can DI away from Ivy though, which is the whole AVOID step. Ivy doesn't have options *well GOOD ones at least* for edgeguarding.

Ivy's awesome at edgeguarding. A wall of Back Airs which just has so much range you can't beat it with anything you posess will eat away any chances of you recovering over her and she doesn't require anywhere near the amount of timing most Characters do to nab that ledge she's forced you to go for.

 

[washy]

Anyways, despite the fact that you CAN switch, the same goes for falcon. Falcon can CAMP Charizard and force you to swap twice, guaranteeing 1 or 2 free shots, a stock *should you refuse*, or a very good matchup *should you switch once*. I'm not saying squirtle is BAD, but the fact that we have guaranteed stuff against him, including a possible infinite, or at the very least a good way to get him offstage with bonus damage, kinda nulls squirtle's good things, like his jab and great air control.

Are you saying Captain Falcon ***** charizard so badly we'll have to switch twice to get to ivysaur?

 

[Demenise]

Anyways, despite the fact that you CAN switch, the same goes for falcon. Falcon can CAMP Charizard and force you to swap twice, guaranteeing 1 or 2 free shots, a stock *should you refuse*, or a very good matchup *should you switch once*. I'm not saying squirtle is BAD, but the fact that we have guaranteed stuff against him, including a possible infinite, or at the very least a good way to get him offstage with bonus damage, kinda nulls squirtle's good things, like his jab and great air control.

That was rather unintelligent.

You can't camp Charizard. The way you're stating it, it sounds like Falcon has a 90-10 advantage on Charizard. Which is untrue.

Charizard is a good character.

"Camping" against Charizard won't work. It's called an approach, which, if you seriously try to stay on the defense, Charizard will take advantage of. You won't force Charizard to switch; how can you? How do you expect to?



...And I still think that the matchup is 55-45 Charizard

 

[Zeallyx]

That was rather unintelligent.

You can't camp Charizard. The way you're stating it, it sounds like Falcon has a 90-10 advantage on Charizard. Which is untrue.

Charizard is a good character.

"Camping" against Charizard won't work. It's called an approach, which, if you seriously try to stay on the defense, Charizard will take advantage of. You won't force Charizard to switch; how can you? How do you expect to?



...And I still think that the matchup is 55-45 Charizard

I have played good pokemon trainers, and saying charizard has an advantage is just not true :/

First of all, because charizard is a large target, he falls victim (faster) to our strongest kill move: the knee.

It may seem that we will never hit you with it, because it was 'nerfed', but don't underestimate the speed of a SH knee punish. Charizard can be hit with a sweetspotted knee, without us risking to endure the lag (FFling it), we can simply SH knee (lagless landing) and get a sweetspot. We can use this to punish, and as charizard has some slow(er) moves, I got this to work quite often.

Even if we don't sweetspot the knee, we can flub it>jag(>jab>grab).

Falcon's Dthrow/Uthrow set up nicely for Uairs, or airdodge baiting, as charizards Dair is kinda slow.

Charizards rocksmash is dangerous, and punishes hard, but I didn't find myself getting hit by the full move (often) or simply beeing able to dodge/shield it.
But again, it punishes hard.

Charizards flames (neutral b) seems the biggest threat to me, as they can almost make you DI, wich can be dashgrab/tilt punished. And with charizards great grab range, this is quite a problem.

Charizards grab overall is quite hard to deal with, due to its great reach. I often found myself beeing (dash)grabbed, with racks up damage nicely, but in my experience charizard has a as a hard time finishing us off, as we have a hard time finishing him off.

I say falcon's speed is a big reason this matchup is in falcon's favor (against charizard).

 

[SmashBrother2008]

I have played good pokemon trainers, and saying charizard has an advantage is just not true :/

First of all, because charizard is a large target, he falls victim (faster) to our strongest kill move: the knee.

It may seem that we will never hit you with it, because it was 'nerfed', but don't underestimate the speed of a SH knee punish. Charizard can be hit with a sweetspotted knee, without us risking to endure the lag (FFling it), we can simply SH knee (lagless landing) and get a sweetspot. We can use this to punish, and as charizard has some slow(er) moves, I got this to work quite often.

Even if we don't sweetspot the knee, we can flub it>jag(>jab>grab).

Falcon's Dthrow/Uthrow set up nicely for Uairs, or airdodge baiting, as charizards Dair is kinda slow.

Charizards rocksmash is dangerous, and punishes hard, but I didn't find myself getting hit by the full move (often) or simply beeing able to dodge/shield it.
But again, it punishes hard.

Charizards flames (neutral b) seems the biggest threat to me, as they can almost make you DI, wich can be dashgrab/tilt punished. And with charizards great grab range, this is quite a problem.

Charizards grab overall is quite hard to deal with, due to its great reach. I often found myself beeing (dash)grabbed, with racks up damage nicely, but in my experience charizard has a as a hard time finishing us off, as we have a hard time finishing him off.

I say falcon's speed is a big reason this matchup is in falcon's favor (against charizard).

Don't forget the flamethrower edgeguard. Thats a pain in the *** to deal with. I'm sure this one's in favor of Captain Falcon, it just seems like he can attack Charizard with smaller attacks before Charizard can attack CF with the big hitters.

Anyway, Blue Falcon > a water pistol/a leaf/a candle (triple finish).

 

[Wogrim]

That was rather unintelligent.

You can't camp Charizard. The way you're stating it, it sounds like Falcon has a 90-10 advantage on Charizard. Which is untrue.

Charizard is a good character.

"Camping" against Charizard won't work. It's called an approach, which, if you seriously try to stay on the defense, Charizard will take advantage of. You won't force Charizard to switch; how can you? How do you expect to?



...And I still think that the matchup is 55-45 Charizard

Charizard has an approach that can catch the 2nd fastest character? Otherwise we can play keepaway until the stamina thing kicks in, at which point you'll have a harder time killing us and will have to get us offstage (which will of course be more difficult) if you want to safely switch, and even if you do Squirtle isn't looking like a win matchup for you either.

 

[Player 3]

Charizard has an approach that can catch the 2nd fastest character? Otherwise we can play keepaway until the stamina thing kicks in, at which point you'll have a harder time killing us and will have to get us offstage (which will of course be more difficult) if you want to safely switch, and even if you do Squirtle isn't looking like a win matchup for you either.

no offense, but depending on what you call keep away, that would not work...
stalling is not allowed

 

[Zeallyx]

no offense, but depending on what you call keep away, that would not work...
stalling is not allowed

what wogrim said is not stalling..
stalling is homing attacking the bottom of the stage for 1+ min