Captain falcon vs Pokemon trainer: Falcon's advantage - indepth

[Roager]

I thought aerials couldn't clash... ever... Priority was based on disjointedness. That's part of why Marth does so well in the air.

Unless I'm wrong...

 

[SaltyKracka]

I thought aerials couldn't clash... ever... Priority was based on disjointedness. That's part of why Marth does so well in the air.

Unless I'm wrong...

You're not. Squirtle's aerials will likely beat out Falcons tilts.

 

[Tenki]

I thought aerials couldn't clash... ever... Priority was based on disjointedness. That's part of why Marth does so well in the air.

Unless I'm wrong...

Normal aerials don't clash with grounded moves.

They trade hits.

their much sexier.

oh you meant usefulness...

Actually no, I meant U-air/B-air's priority on/against Squirtle's aerials.

 

[Xiahou Dun]

Even if its higher priority, they'll just clash. Thats how sexy utilt is as an anti air move. Which is why I use it against AERIAL SQUIRTLE.

Aerials don't clash. They're physically not capable of it.

For his weird pivot boosting, you can always expect a boosted jump or boosted grab, so its a sidestep or just simply grab if you feel awesome.

Or jabs, or jab grabs, or Up Smash, or almost anything. If you're playing someone that's that predictable then they just aren't playing very smart is all. You can't just expect to counter it every time with Sidesteps or Grabs.

Btw, his utilt PALES in comparison to fox's, even though its faster to cooldown. Because fox's has a TON more range. Yeah.

Oh I know. I was only referring to like "after you've been hit by it follow up potentialness" from there it's comparable.

 

[F5Hazardousdoc]

Aerials don't clash. They're physically not capable of it.




Or jabs, or jab grabs, or Up Smash, or almost anything. If you're playing someone that's that predictable then they just aren't playing very smart is all. You can't just expect to counter it every time with Sidesteps or Grabs.



Oh I know. I was only referring to like "after you've been hit by it follow up potentialness" from there it's comparable.

Ok, so he'll trade hits with squirtle. I left a statement about that too.

Upsmash is telegraphed, and easy to shield/powershield. Execute and punish. I'd only worry about it as a punisher or an intercept to landing, in which pivot boosted usmash is good.
As for jabs and jab grab... Uhh, I said something about spot dodging right? You could always falcon kick too :S *I should just answer lots of things with falcon kick because I love that move*

Yeah, but fawx is kewler ok /offtopic

 

[SaltyKracka]

Ok, so he'll trade hits with squirtle. I left a statement about that too.

Upsmash is telegraphed, and easy to shield/powershield. Execute and punish. I'd only worry about it as a punisher or an intercept to landing, in which pivot boosted usmash is good.
As for jabs and jab grab... Uhh, I said something about spot dodging right? You could always falcon kick too :S *I should just answer lots of things with falcon kick because I love that move*

Yeah, but fawx is kewler ok /offtopic

Spotdodge is not actually an answer in a matchup topic. You do know that, right? Otherwise people can just claim that you can counter everything with spotdodging. You actually have to name something that your character alone can do. So, what can Falcon do to counter Squirtle's jab/grabs besides spotdodging? As for Falcon Kick, I'm fairly sure Squirtle's shellshifting goes underneath it. Or his attacks could just interrupt it. I'm fairly sure they're fast enough for that.

 

[Steeler]

well, squirtle can crouch under ganon's wizard foot. idk about falcon kyiiiiiick

 

[Zeallyx]

well, squirtle can crouch under ganon's wizard foot. idk about falcon kyiiiiiick

I just tested it, and squirtle cannot crouch under a falcon kick.

 

[F5Hazardousdoc]

Spotdodge is not actually an answer in a matchup topic. You do know that, right? Otherwise people can just claim that you can counter everything with spotdodging. You actually have to name something that your character alone can do. So, what can Falcon do to counter Squirtle's jab/grabs besides spotdodging? As for Falcon Kick, I'm fairly sure Squirtle's shellshifting goes underneath it. Or his attacks could just interrupt it. I'm fairly sure they're fast enough for that.

Ok
Falcon punch: HOW DO YOU COUNTER IT MAKE YOUR TIME.
You SPOTDODGE IT. Telegraphed moves require shielding/dodging.

I just tested it, and squirtle cannot crouch under a falcon kick.

YES! The universal answer is here!
Tornado giving you trouble? Is snake's mortarslide getting you down? TRY USING FALCON KICK! Now in flamingo color!

 

[Tenki]

Moves that are only answered by spotdodge/airdodge are usually moves that lend themselves to becoming delayed-attack mixups.

Just saying :3

 

[F5Hazardousdoc]

Moves that are only answered by spotdodge/airdodge are usually moves that lend themselves to becoming delayed-attack mixups.

Just saying :3

I know, just showing the flaw in salty's logicks.

It takes a pivot to do the "shell shuffle", so its predictable. Falcon kick would work nicely, raptor boost *maybe, since falcon stops and makes an odd movement, it can throw off opponent timing and could cause early/late jab*, falcon's ftilt *longer range*, utilt *lol utilt*, FALCON PUNCH *UNCOUNTERABLE... I DID THE TESTING?*

 

[washy]

It takes a pivot to do the "shell shuffle", so its predictable.

If your talking about hydroplanning, you don't have to pivot. Its called forward hydroplanning.

 

[F5Hazardousdoc]

If your talking about hydroplanning, you don't have to pivot. Its called forward hydroplanning.

:\
:/

What?

THAT would be called dashing and using an attack. :|

 

[SSJ5Goku8932]

The person who said Captain Falcon has an advantage underestimates PT.

 

[Darxmarth23]

If Charizard is too slow, then why does Falcon not have an advantage against Bowser. You People under estimate PT.

You are basing this off one thing.

 

[__V]

Because Bowser is a more versatile character than Charizard. Bowser's attacks have obscenely large hitboxes and he's faster. And since Falcon has ALMOST an even fight with Bowser, why wouldn't he have an advantage over a character that has the same disadvantages without any advantages?

 

[SSJ5Goku8932]

But then again I don't main Bowser so yeah I probaly don't know much.

 

[washy]

:\
:/

What?

THAT would be called dashing and using an attack. :|

What the hell is a shell shuffle? Hydroplanning is not called, doh a dash and attack. I thought maybe you were talking about hydroplanning which incase you were, squirtle can do it without the pivot animation so I don't think Capt Falcon can react quick enough to counter it with a Falcon kyyick.

 

[F5Hazardousdoc]

What the hell is a shell shuffle? Hydroplanning is not called, doh a dash and attack. I thought maybe you were talking about hydroplanning which incase you were, squirtle can do it without the pivot animation so I don't think Capt Falcon can react quick enough to counter it with a Falcon kyyick.

So how would you do a hydroplane without a pivot? I don't understand... :|

I was under the illusion that you have to do squirtle's unique pivot and use your move of choice, because he slides so oddly while doing it.

Unless you're talking about DAC. Which is a DAC, not "hydroplaning"... unless you like your fancy names XD
Snakes do call their DAC "mortarslides"

 

[washy]

Forward hydro planning is when as your running, you hit the joystick the other direction and then quickly do an upsmash. the result is you cancel the pivot animation and continue sliding forward in the direction you were originally going in.

 

[SuSa]

@f5
Forward Hyrdroplane is similiar to the regualr one, but less predictable.

You run > Pivot > Quickly Jump cancel upsmash (people always leave out the jump-cancel... which is how you hyrdoplane with tap jump off, and even with it ON, thats what you do everytime you upsmash without c-stick)

Results in a Hydroplane going the same direction you were running in.

The normal Hydroplane is when you wait until AFTER the pivot. This ones AS the pivot starts.

 

[F5Hazardousdoc]

@f5
Forward Hyrdroplane is similiar to the regualr one, but less predictable.

You run > Pivot > Quickly Jump cancel upsmash (people always leave out the jump-cancel... which is how you hyrdoplane with tap jump off, and even with it ON, thats what you do everytime you upsmash without c-stick)

Results in a Hydroplane going the same direction you were running in.

The normal Hydroplane is when you wait until AFTER the pivot. This ones AS the pivot starts.

Ooh. Ok, very SNEEKY. I WEEL BREAK UR NECKS DEN YES.

Anyways, on a serious note, what are the moves you can use out of this? You can only usmash out of it, right? Or can you pull some crazy sheik stunt and dsmash XD?

Not like it matters much, squirtle's dsmash is a bit laggy, and falcon kick would clash with it. *goes even further off topic*

In any case, this sounds like a complicated mortarslide *Dash attack cancel for NON AWESOME SNAKE PEOPLE*, so I'd still say do a FALCON KICK. Sounds like vs squirtle it'll be a falcon kick fest.

 

[Steeler]

Because Bowser is a more versatile character than Charizard. Bowser's attacks have obscenely large hitboxes and he's faster. And since Falcon has ALMOST an even fight with Bowser, why wouldn't he have an advantage over a character that has the same disadvantages without any advantages?

first of all, your

cf almost = bowser
bowser > charizard
cf > charizard

logic is absolutely ridiculous. so dedede > wolf and wolf > fox so dedede > fox? no. **** doesn't work like that, and although dedede beats wolf, dedede goes near even with fox. an example of why you cannot compare two characters and say "oh well my character does okay on better character #1, so i do even better on inferior character #2."

you can't even say with certainty that bowser is better than charizard. :\

second of all, how can you claim bowser is faster?

Bowser
Jab: 6

Forward Tilt: 10
Up Tilt: 8
Down Tilt: 10
Dash Attack: 10

Up Smash: 16
Down Smash: 14
Forward Smash: 26

Forward B: 8
Neutral B: 24
Down B: 11
Up B: 6

Forward Air: 8
Back Air: 9
Down Air: 14
Up Air: 16
Neutral Air: 9

Charizard
Jab: 4

Forward Tilt: 12
Up Tilt: 9
Down Tilt: 8
Dash Attack: 10

Up Smash: 5
Down Smash: 14
Forward Smash: 22

Forward B: 24 (the rock comes out in 5 frames or less)
Neutral B: 20
Down B: ???
Up B: 9

Forward Air: 9
Back Air: 7
Down Air: 18
Up Air: 6
Neutral Air: 8

zard dash speed is 7th, bowser is 16th.

zard air speed is 15th, bowser is 10th

or more versatile? are you sure you know how both characters play? and since when does charizard not have large hitboxes? sup rock smash/flamethrower/dtilt/ftilt/utilt/usmash/bair/uair/fair (lol phantom knockback)/dair. grab isn't a hitbox but it's large as well.

arguments like these from the falcon side are why i really do not care about arguing this matchup anymore. that and this matchup will rarely ever happen in tourney play for either character. the matchup is near neutral with an edge toward pokemon trainer. 60/40 PT, mainly due to ivysaur at low percent and charizard at mid to high. maybe 55/45 if you want to make yourself feel better about playing falcon. it doesn't really matter either way.

 

[F5Hazardousdoc]

first of all, your

cf almost = bowser
bowser > charizard
cf > charizard

logic is absolutely ridiculous. so dedede > wolf and wolf > fox so dedede > fox? no. **** doesn't work like that, and although dedede beats wolf, dedede goes near even with fox. an example of why you cannot compare two characters and say "oh well my character does okay on better character #1, so i do even better on inferior character #2."

you can't even say with certainty that bowser is better than charizard. :\

I'm sorry... I fail to see how YOUR logic of fox going equal with DDD makes a difference. Fox has something that totally disrupts DDD's BIGGEST thing, his CG. Btw, wolf does NOT > fox... its an even matchup. Learn to look up your **** matchups :|
What does charizard have against falcon that he doesn't have against bowser? Or vice versa in any way? Charry is a bit lighter, and smaller, but thats practically it, maybe the triple jump too. Other than that, I see another large target for nairs and shknees.

Bowser
Jab: 6

Forward Tilt: 10
Up Tilt: 8
Down Tilt: 10
Dash Attack: 10

Up Smash: 16
Down Smash: 14
Forward Smash: 26

Forward B: 8
Neutral B: 24
Down B: 11
Up B: 6

Forward Air: 8
Back Air: 9
Down Air: 14
Up Air: 16
Neutral Air: 9

Charizard
Jab: 4

Forward Tilt: 12
Up Tilt: 9
Down Tilt: 8
Dash Attack: 10

Up Smash: 5
Down Smash: 14
Forward Smash: 22

Forward B: 24 (the rock comes out in 5 frames or less)
Neutral B: 20
Down B: ???
Up B: 9

Forward Air: 9
Back Air: 7
Down Air: 18
Up Air: 6
Neutral Air: 8

zard dash speed is 7th, bowser is 16th.

zard air speed is 15th, bowser is 10th

or more versatile? are you sure you know how both characters play? and since when does charizard not have large hitboxes? sup rock smash/flamethrower/dtilt/ftilt/utilt/usmash/bair/uair/fair (lol phantom knockback)/dair. grab isn't a hitbox but it's large as well.

Bowser is faster for one simple fact: Up b OOS. He poops on most people's close range game with it. Bowser has bigger range, see ftilt, fair, dtilt, hell most of his moves. Plus, he's bigger, granting him a bigger body to hit opponents with and more weight. He has a CG or guaranteed things off of grab release. Bowser is a defensive type fighter, forcing approaches simply because he has innate larger range than you and can fight midrange. Don't BS me with stupid stuff like "Charizard is faster than boozer so he iz better" He's barely faster too :|

arguments like these from the falcon side are why i really do not care about arguing this matchup anymore. that and this matchup will rarely ever happen in tourney play for either character. the matchup is near neutral with an edge toward pokemon trainer. 60/40 PT, mainly due to ivysaur at low percent and charizard at mid to high. maybe 55/45 if you want to make yourself feel better about playing falcon. it doesn't really matter either way.

Chance of things happening != lack of need to determine matchup. You'd never see a mewtwo in melee, but does that stop mewtwo mains from wanting to see how well they'd stack up against other guys? I doubt that. Falcon is bottom of bottom, and WE obviously want all the info we want to shove down our competitions throats with a falcon punch attached. You're entitled to your opinion, but you're arguing NOTHING for charizard or ivysaur's advantage. Charizard still suffers from gimpability, and large size being a benefit to falcon, and Ivy still suffers from falcon's superior gimping ability and the grab release > uair. And you didn't even talk about squirtle.. Coulda sworn he's one of the guys in the PK trainer swap line. Oh thats right, you do a good job of IGNORING your weaknesses. :|
Oh yeah, and good job insulting falcon mains too :|

People like YOU need to take off the one-sided glasses and look at the matchup in WHOLE.

 

[SmashBrother2008]

arguments like these from the falcon side are why i really do not care about arguing this matchup anymore. that and this matchup will rarely ever happen in tourney play for either character. the matchup is near neutral with an edge toward pokemon trainer. 60/40 PT, mainly due to ivysaur at low percent and charizard at mid to high. maybe 55/45 if you want to make yourself feel better about playing falcon. it doesn't really matter either way.

Running from an argument only means that you are afraid of being wrong.

 

[Steeler]

i've already argued the matchup on the pt board, and reflex agreed with my post (who iirc has played both falcon and pt). maybe you should look at it, because afaik maybe only one falcon even paid attention to my post. it's obvious you haven't seen what i had to say.

anyway

the wolf/fox example was to show you that most people think wolf is a better character than fox (not that wolf beats fox 1v1, should have made that distinction) and that wolf does worse against dedede than fox does, because although they are similar in a handful of ways, there are some pretty important differences that make the matchups different. same thing with charizard and bowser. should have distinguished between wolf is seen as better than fox (not as a matchup), just as you falcons see bowser as a better character than charizard, so falcon does better against charizard.

i never said charizard was faster. i was just giving the facts for you to decide whether the speed statement was really correct or not.

the point of large hitboxes is fairly irrelevant because both characters have large hitboxes, and against a character with bad priority like falcon, you don't need to reach very far to beat him out.

bowser has nothing to do with this matchup, so i don't see why y'all bring him up. charizard isn't a clone of bowser lol.

i'm not "running" from the argument, i've already given my 3 cents and no one really paid attention to it, so i decided to just step away from the discussion. i decided to pop in and make that post to point out some stuff i disagreed with in V's post.

 

[fox219]

ToKneeorNotToKnee, I like your signature!

 

[F5Hazardousdoc]

i've already argued the matchup on the pt board, and reflex agreed with my post (who iirc has played both falcon and pt). maybe you should look at it, because afaik maybe only one falcon even paid attention to my post. it's obvious you haven't seen what i had to say.

anyway

the wolf/fox example was to show you that most people think wolf is a better character than fox (not that wolf beats fox 1v1, should have made that distinction) and that wolf does worse against dedede than fox does, because although they are similar in a handful of ways, there are some pretty important differences that make the matchups different. same thing with charizard and bowser. should have distinguished between wolf is seen as better than fox (not as a matchup), just as you falcons see bowser as a better character than charizard, so falcon does better against charizard.

i never said charizard was faster. i was just giving the facts for you to decide whether the speed statement was really correct or not.

the point of large hitboxes is fairly irrelevant because both characters have large hitboxes, and against a character with bad priority like falcon, you don't need to reach very far to beat him out.

bowser has nothing to do with this matchup, so i don't see why y'all bring him up. charizard isn't a clone of bowser lol.

i'm not "running" from the argument, i've already given my 3 cents and no one really paid attention to it, so i decided to just step away from the discussion. i decided to pop in and make that post to point out some stuff i disagreed with in V's post.

Gawd, this topic isn't getting anywhere, its PTs arguing that they're better for unknown reasons *lol ROCKSMASH OMG WE WIN*, and falcon mains kinda edging around, not giving anything solid to sink our teeth into. Urgh.

 

[Wogrim]

We need a new summary at this point so we can see where the argument is at.

 

[Tenki]

I'm not sure if I mentioned this yet, but Falcon's U-air usually beats Squirtle's aerials. Partly because it hits from below or behind him, where his aerials aren't as disjoint.

Or maybe it really just goes down to whoever uses an aerial first (loses).

 

[Steeler]

i'm not sure tenki, squirtle's nair is disjointed in front and behind him where the water is, dair's tail seems to have a hitbox surrounding the tail. bair and uair might be more disjointed on the tail but i'm not sure about it. fair doesn't seem to have much disjointedness at all.

i think falcon uair beats squirtle dair out.

http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=6345390&postcount=90

also falcon's Up B does not count as a fire type move.

 

[F5Hazardousdoc]

Falcon's falcon dive has grab priority, so its usually a good counter to aerials... but theres always the fact that if you miss you get punished, and the fact that no matter what happens, you'll suffer the landing lag on your next fall to the ground.

 

[Zeallyx]

Falcon's falcon dive has grab priority, so its usually a good counter to aerials... but theres always the fact that if you miss you get punished, and the fact that no matter what happens, you'll suffer the landing lag on your next fall to the ground.

Not if you Nair/Bair/Uair..

 

[Wogrim]

Falcon's falcon dive has grab priority, so its usually a good counter to aerials... but theres always the fact that if you miss you get punished, and the fact that no matter what happens, you'll suffer the landing lag on your next fall to the ground.

Not if you Nair/Bair/Uair..

How do people not know this by now?

 

[Mit]

Wait

do certain attacks actually have Pokemon-style elements attached to them that affect damage/knockback to the different Pokemon characters? If so, that's awesome. I find it hard to believe though, as I've rocked a fair share of Ivysaurs with lightning knees, and they should have been "not very effective..."

Also, I'm on the fence on this matchup. Gonna have to take PT's side and say he most likely still have an advantage. Good PT mains are seemingly hard to come by, and I don't think any of us here have played any actually good ones in non-online fights. Without having actually played them, I don't think there's any way you can accurately gauge the matchup.

 

[TKD]

The match-up is supposed to be 6 to 4 in Trainer's favor. Dunno why, but it's in the complete match-up chart I got a hold of.

 

[Wogrim]

Wait

do certain attacks actually have Pokemon-style elements attached to them that affect damage/knockback to the different Pokemon characters? If so, that's awesome. I find it hard to believe though, as I've rocked a fair share of Ivysaurs with lightning knees, and they should have been "not very effective..."

Also, I'm on the fence on this matchup. Gonna have to take PT's side and say he most likely still have an advantage. Good PT mains are seemingly hard to come by, and I don't think any of us here have played any actually good ones in non-online fights. Without having actually played them, I don't think there's any way you can accurately gauge the matchup.

Fire is extra effective on Ivy, less effective on Squirtle. I don't remember if the Knee is any more or less effective on any of them.

The match-up is supposed to be 6 to 4 in Trainer's favor. Dunno why, but it's in the complete match-up chart I got a hold of.

Which means nothing.

 

[Zeallyx]

How do people not know this by now?

yes, like I told you, we should keep progressive discussions in the falcon backroom.
Just look at the 'falcon's BEST moves thread'. (wich got closed very quickly, wich is good)

Although F5hazardousdoc is quite a knowledgeable poster, Taking him as an example is not correct. But this was just to show my point, that some (not F5) are misinformed or don't know simple facts, for wich they cannot be blamed if they can't know, but still, progressive discussion should be held in the backroom. A thread about it too can't do harm, but we should focus on discussing things in the backroom too.

 

[Phiddlesticks]

The Pokemon are only weak to and resistant to Fire, Grass, and Water type attacks. That means Ivysaur gets the short end of the stick because a lot of characters have fire based attacks, while the only characters with water and grass based attacks are Squirtle and Ivysaur.

Electric attacks, ice attacks, fighting attacks (Aura Sphere/Force Palm?), and poison attacks (white pikmin? I dunno) have no extra effects against the three Pokemon.

 

[Wogrim]

yes, like I told you, we should keep progressive discussions in the falcon backroom.
Just look at the 'falcon's BEST moves thread'. (wich got closed very quickly, wich is good)

Although F5hazardousdoc is quite a knowledgeable poster, Taking him as an example is not correct. But this was just to show my point, that some (not F5) are misinformed or don't know simple facts, for wich they cannot be blamed if they can't know, but still, progressive discussion should be held in the backroom. A thread about it too can't do harm, but we should focus on discussing things in the backroom too.

I posted it (for probably like the 3rd time) in a response to a post of Tenki's in one of the why is Falcon so bad threads a few days ago

A topic on it would just get buried in a few days and people wouldn't find it, so it would probably just waste board space for a few days (and only for that long because people would be asking why we made a topic on it). We need to keep some sort of techniques/discoveries thread alive and organized. I think Ayaz and Noodle each had one at some point but they probably have been dead for months.