Captain falcon vs Pokemon trainer: Falcon's advantage - indepth

[Fearmy]

you can always watergun to use camp a bit IF you really need to. Squirtle's Dair cuts through a lot of moves, not sure if it cuts through any of falcons. now does Squirtle or Falcon have a longer grab range? I know squirtle has a really long one, despite the fact that all his other moves are really short -_- and his Grab game is 1/2 my squirtle game.

 

[Phiddlesticks]

Did you know Bowser has a 65-35 advantage against himself, Captain Falcon, Charizard, Diddy Kong, Falco, Ganondorf, Ike, King Dedede, Link, Lucas, Meta Knight, Pikachu, Sheik, Snake, Sonic, Squirtle and Wario? It's true, he has a grab release chain grab on all of them!

 

[Psychoace]

I tried to take a lot of opinions from the pt boards thread about it, but most of it was spam or something about wario. I also summarized for those who can't take the time to read through the thread like me the parts that most of the people agreed on.

Squirtle - (though he hasn't really been discussed.)

Advantage - 1. chaingrab leads to offstage falling upair. He has to get in close to do damage so yeah it will be a chaingrab game most of the time against squirtle. (battlefield/platforms plays a big point in leading to knee apparently)
2. Possible infinite, I still don't know about that.
3. Reliable kill options.
4. Better ranged moves.
5. Don't really have to worry about many ko moves.


Disadvantage - 1. quick lagless ac'd aerials..
2. resists fire moves


Charizard -

Advantage - 1. aerial falcon kick.
2. Falcon's Neutral Air can do well in this matchup and due to Charizards slow Down Air startup juggling him with Up Air for a while is pretty easy.
3. Knee's(used for punish) and up b's on a big target like him are easy.
4. Speed, a solidly decent advantage especially when it comes to punishing.
5. jab game
6. Can't you up-b with invincible frames through edguard flamethrower?

Disadvantage - 1. rocksmash is a good punish?
2. Charizard's B-air can double as a gtfo/kill/damage move.
3. Can edgeguard falcon well with disjointed aerials
3. dair ***** falcon off stage.
4. Charizard's F/B-throw by the edge just plain sets you up for edgeguard. It's not necessarily combo stuff, but if you get hit by F-air after you double jump, or if you try to recover below the ledge, you're pretty much dead.
5. Charizards flames (neutral b) seems the biggest threat to me, as they can almost make you DI, wich can be dashgrab/tilt punished. And with charizards great grab range, this is quite a problem.
6. Down-B//stamina: Honestly, all Charizard has to do is to use a kill move as usual. As long as it knocks you off the edge, it'll buy him time to switch. And if you're not up to that % yet, he can still whittle you down to a % he can kill with even when tired.(If that even poses a threat because most of the poketrainers around here say stamina doesn't matter.)

Ivysaur -

Advantage - 1. if ivy gets thrown offstage in the process, its an easy kill, a good Falcon wont miss the chance to edge grab him... and the second is the already stated uair from grab release kill which guarantees a kill once the damage is high enough.
2. Ivysaur receives more knockback from fire-type moves.
Falcon's F-smash, Falcon Punch, Raptorboost, and Falcon Kick are super effective.
3. The first hit of Bullet Seed can be DI'd to avoid the entire thing
4. Grab release to up air is good for getting him into the air and off stage setting up for good gimping.

Disadvantage - 1. Ivysaur's B-air is such a spacer/disruptor
2. Projectiles
3. Bullet seed can rack up damage if it isn't sdi'd out of.

 

[Face124]

well, bear in mind that Falcon could have a possible infinite on Squirtle, not just a cg. If A grab = death I would think it is in Falcons favour. Wario is MUCH harder to gran than Squirtle, so that comparison is a bit silly

 

[Phiddlesticks]

Wario is only harder to grab because he has one move Squirtle does not: Bite (ironically though, Squirtle learns Bite by level up in the Pokemon games). That does not mean Squirtle is easy to grab, or that you will be grabbing Squirtle a lot in a single game. Squirtle has many of the qualities Wario has that makes him hard to grab, including fantastic aerial control and lagless aerials. Squirtle also has a couple of minor qualities that Wario doesn't have, such as more range on his aerials and a 1 frame jab that can be used to punish shield grab attempts, although I admit they aren't as useful as Wario's Bite.

Regardless, Squirtle is a very hard character to grab, and a grab release chain grab shouldn't singlehandedly put the matchup significantly in Captain Falcon's favour.

 

[Zeallyx]

Wario is only harder to grab because he has one move Squirtle does not: Bite (ironically though, Squirtle learns Bite by level up in the Pokemon games). That does not mean Squirtle is easy to grab, or that you will be grabbing Squirtle a lot in a single game. Squirtle has many of the qualities Wario has that makes him hard to grab, including fantastic aerial control and lagless aerials. Squirtle also has a couple of minor qualities that Wario doesn't have, such as more range on his aerials and a 1 frame jab that can be used to punish shield grab attempts, although I admit they aren't as useful as Wario's Bite.

Regardless, Squirtle is a very hard character to grab, and a grab release chain grab shouldn't singlehandedly put the matchup significantly in Captain Falcon's favour.

No, bite is not the only issue..Wario's retreating Dair is a threat too.

And yes, you will be grabbing squirtle alot in a singles game, as it will do quite sme damage and squirtle, too, is a close combat brawler.

And the release grab CG>Uair is not all we have against squirtle.

 

[Face124]

If it's an infinite it might.

 

[Phiddlesticks]

Bite IS the issue. Bite is the main reason why Wario is so hard to grab.

Here is a scenario: Squirtle uses a retreating short hopped fair. HOW do you punish it with a grab? If you are wondering, the correct answer is "you can't". Seriously, if you have played a Squirtle that you grabbed a lot in one game, you played a bad Squirtle.

You keep saying there's more to the matchup than the grab release chain grab, yet you still haven't elaborated at all. Care to actually back up your point?

I made a post in the Pokemon Trainer forums about why I think Squirtle has the advantage on Captain Falcon. It can be found HERE. I'm absolutely willing to discuss the matchup if you want, but so far the only thing I've read is "grab release chain grab LOL"

 

[Zeallyx]

Bite IS the issue. Bite is the main reason why Wario is so hard to grab.

Here is a scenario: Squirtle uses a retreating short hopped fair. HOW do you punish it with a grab? If you are wondering, the correct answer is "you can't". Seriously, if you have played a Squirtle that you grabbed a lot in one game, you played a bad Squirtle.

You keep saying there's more to the matchup than the grab release chain grab, yet you still haven't elaborated at all. Care to actually back up your point?

I made a post in the Pokemon Trainer forums about why I think Squirtle has the advantage on Captain Falcon. It can be found HERE. I'm absolutely willing to discuss the matchup if you want, but so far the only thing I've read is "grab release chain grab LOL"

I tried to take a lot of opinions from the pt boards thread about it, but most of it was spam or something about wario. I also summarized for those who can't take the time to read through the thread like me the parts that most of the people agreed on.

Squirtle - (though he hasn't really been discussed.)

Advantage - 1. chaingrab leads to offstage falling upair. He has to get in close to do damage so yeah it will be a chaingrab game most of the time against squirtle. (battlefield/platforms plays a big point in leading to knee apparently)
2. Possible infinite, I still don't know about that.
3. Reliable kill options.
4. Better ranged moves.
5. Don't really have to worry about many ko moves.


Disadvantage - 1. quick lagless ac'd aerials..
2. resists fire moves.

Also, when we shield a retreated SH Fair from squirtle, we may not be able to punish it with a grab..but its not like you hit us (if we shield). And if retreated Fairs is all you have (Is not true, but in reaction to the example you gave..) we can predict+dash grab ^_^

 

[Phiddlesticks]

So Captain Falcon's range and apparently reliable kill options (what are they? Dsmash? Upair near the edge of the stage?) not only make up for Squirtle's uptilt/upair strings, superior throws and grab game in general and good edgeguarding game, but also make the matchup 65-35 in his advantage?

For some reason, this just doesn't make sense to me

 

[Psychoace]

I'm pretty sure if you shielded a retreating fair you could either throw in a falcon kick or maybe raptor boost? Not 100% on that though.

(I wonder if electric knee is super effective, *random thought*)

I'd like to think that bair is a very safe move edgeguarding.

Falcon still has a great dash grab game so I wouldn't throw grabbing totally in squirtles favor.

upair kills in a lot more places other than at the edge, depending on the stage.

 

[Face124]

Also the new sliding grab thing extends the grab range further than a dash grab, and its has the speed and cooldown lag of a standing grab. Saying "oh we won't get grabbed" is silly IMO. Really, against a good Falcon you are going to get grabbed at least once in match. Its like saying don't get hit, you're going to get hit eventually.

Perhaps it sin't in Falcon's favour, but if that infinite works its certainly not going to be much in Squirtle's favour.

 

[Phiddlesticks]

@Psychoace: You probably can hit Squirtle with Falcon Kick and maybe Raptor Boost, but my question was about how Falcon could punish it with a grab . Sweetspotted Knee isn't super effective against Squirtle; only grass moves are (ie Ivysaur's moves). If electric moves were super effective against Squirtle, they would also have to be super effective against Charizard because he's a flying type.

I have no idea when Falcon's upair kills at, for example, the middle of Final Destination. When I asked what Falcon's reliable kill moves were, it was a legit question.

@Face124: I have never once said that Squirtle "won't" be grabbed. I have said that Squirtle is very hard to grab if he is spacing his aerials correctly, and that Squirtle's aerial control and lagless aerials make him a tough character to grab in general, and that Squirtle won't be grabbed enough to sway the matchup to 65-35 Falcon's advantage, but I have never said that Squirtle won't be grabbed. You are just putting words into my mouth. Er, putting words into my text box?

Is there a topic about this sliding grab? I haven't heard about it before and it sounds interesting, especially if it works for every character.

Either way I'm not sure why I'm spending so much time debating this matchup. Seriously, Captain Falcon vs Pokemon Trainer has to be one of the rarest matchups in the game.

 

[Face124]

@Psychoace: You probably can hit Squirtle with Falcon Kick and maybe Raptor Boost, but my question was about how Falcon could punish it with a grab . Sweetspotted Knee isn't super effective against Squirtle; only grass moves are (ie Ivysaur's moves). If electric moves were super effective against Squirtle, they would also have to be super effective against Charizard because he's a flying type.

I have no idea when Falcon's upair kills at, for example, the middle of Final Destination. When I asked what Falcon's reliable kill moves were, it was a legit question.

@Face124: I have never once said that Squirtle "won't" be grabbed. I have said that Squirtle is very hard to grab if he is spacing his aerials correctly, and that Squirtle's aerial control and lagless aerials make him a tough character to grab in general, and that Squirtle won't be grabbed enough to sway the matchup to 65-35 Falcon's advantage, but I have never said that Squirtle won't be grabbed. You are just putting words into my mouth. Er, putting words into my text box?

Is there a topic about this sliding grab? I haven't heard about it before and it sounds interesting, especially if it works for every character.

Either way I'm not sure why I'm spending so much time debating this matchup. Seriously, Captain Falcon vs Pokemon Trainer has to be one of the rarest matchups in the game.

Ok, I apologise, I thought you were saying good Squirtle's won't get grabbed at all, and obviously you weren't. Its without a doubt, nowhere near 65-35 Falcon's favour. Who was it that said that? But anyway, I agree, it will be tough to grab Squirtle, but if this infinite is true, I would say that the match-up is 55-45 Falcon-Squirtle. U-air and B-air both combo into a grab at lower percents, N-air at any and jab cancelled grabs at any. I do jab cancelled grabs a lot, its a big part of my game, and I don't think Squirtle can actually avoid a grab for long. This infinite is unconfirmed though, and if it doesn't work I would think the match is even/slightly Squirtle's favour.

As for the reliable kill options:
B-air
Knee
U-air (if undiminished)
U-tilt
D-air (nippled or not)
Hyphen smash

Also, the sliding thing can be done with loads of characters to my understanding, but the only other character to benefit would be Luigi I think. Here is the thread on it:
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=215437

It works great with Falcon because you can do any of his aerials out of the SH and tap jab/grab to get it perfectly timed (although the grab needs buffered). With luigi's slow falling speed and low air mobility it will be harder and less effective.

 

[Phiddlesticks]

Is the knee really reliable against Squirtle? I would call it fairly reliable against Charizard, but Squirtle is a really small target.

After screwing around in training mode, I learned that Squirtle can duck under the first two hits of Falcon's jab. I also don't think Falcon can infinite Squirtle (I also have nobody who can help me confirm it right now, but lvl 9 Squirtle just rolled away before I could pivot grab)

 

[Face124]

Is the knee really reliable against Squirtle? I would call it fairly reliable against Charizard, but Squirtle is a really small target.

After screwing around in training mode, I learned that Squirtle can duck under the first two hits of Falcon's jab. I also don't think Falcon can infinite Squirtle (I also have nobody who can help me confirm it right now, but lvl 9 Squirtle just rolled away before I could pivot grab)

I suppose not, or not one of the most reliable. I find it very easy to knee through platforms on almost all characters, but I suppose.

I never actually tested it myself until now,I just took ToKnee's word for it. It does seem escapable to me though, sooo..

I would say 55-45 Squirtle/Falcon.

And what do you think of the sliding jab/grab stuff?

 

[Zeallyx]

I suppose not, or not one of the most reliable. I find it very easy to knee through platforms on almost all characters, but I suppose.

I never actually tested it myself until now,I just took ToKnee's word for it. It does seem escapable to me though, sooo..

I would say 55-45 Squirtle/Falcon.

And what do you think of the sliding jab/grab stuff?

I never said the infinite works with 100% certainty. Still needs testing on a human player.

 

[Face124]

I never said the infinite works with 100% certainty. Still needs testing on a human player.

Sorry, I meant that I took your word for it probably working. Sorry if I came of the wrong way.

And on another note, does anyone care to share a ratio they think with us? I want more deabate in here.

 

[Tenki]

The grab release 'infinite'/placement tool does, in fact exist.

I'm just wondering, a while ago, there was this thing a certain person posted where Falcon could grab release > aerial raptor boost certain characters off-stage.

...

and the sliding jab/grab from landing looks really lame, I can hardly see the difference lol.

I thought you meant Falcon's retreating run > dash pivot cancel jab slide

 

[Zeallyx]

The grab release 'infinite'/placement tool does, in fact exist.

I'm just wondering, a while ago, there was this thing a certain person posted where Falcon could grab release > aerial raptor boost certain characters off-stage.

...

and the sliding jab/grab from landing looks really lame, I can hardly see the difference lol.

I thought you meant Falcon's retreating run > dash pivot cancel jab slide

Dang..

CG>arial raptor boost spike on squirtle?

That would be very nice ^_^

 

[Tenki]

Falcon's grab release on Squirtle and other things.

After screwing around in training mode, I learned that Squirtle can duck under the first two hits of Falcon's jab. I also don't think Falcon can infinite Squirtle (I also have nobody who can help me confirm it right now, but lvl 9 Squirtle just rolled away before I could pivot grab)

Well, after some very rudimentary testing, this is what I found:

- Squirtle can duck under Falcon's jab. This is only if he doesn't move. If he crawls, he bounces upwards a bit, and he'll get hit.

- Grab release "infinite"/placement tool exists. Spamming double jump as Squirtle after getting grab released, Squirtle MUST fall to slightly under 'ground level' before he can do anything, meaning he needs to land first before he can move again. Falcon can move slightly before then, and dash-regrab Squirtle while he's still around head/chest height.

- Grab release > platform > knee... is NOT inescapable.. Squirtle can shield as soon as he hits the platform, while Falcon is still in ending lag of the grab release.

- Edge Grab Release > Aerial Raptor Boost is NOT inescapable. Squirtle should fastfall and/or airdodge. HOWEVER, THIS IS A TRAP. If Squirtle uses double jump or up-B, he will get caught. Note that it only works if Falcon is directly on the edge and buffers a side-B.

 

[F5Hazardousdoc]

Well, after some very rudimentary testing, this is what I found:

- Squirtle can duck under Falcon's jab. This is only if he doesn't move. If he crawls, he bounces upwards a bit, and he'll get hit.

- Grab release "infinite"/placement tool exists. Spamming double jump as Squirtle after getting grab released, Squirtle MUST fall to slightly under 'ground level' before he can do anything, meaning he needs to land first before he can move again. Falcon can move slightly before then, and dash-regrab Squirtle while he's still around head/chest height.

- Grab release > platform > knee... is NOT inescapable.. Squirtle can shield as soon as he hits the platform, while Falcon is still in ending lag of the grab release.

- Edge Grab Release > Aerial Raptor Boost is NOT inescapable. Squirtle should fastfall and/or airdodge. HOWEVER, THIS IS A TRAP. If Squirtle uses double jump or up-B, he will get caught. Note that it only works if Falcon is directly on the edge and buffers a side-B.

I knew the jab thing, squirtle's annoyingly small.

The grab release was proven a LONG time ago.

I wanted to knee to be unavoidable :'(

btw thanks for the testing.

Edit: Oh you were testing the infinite. Ok.

 

[F5Hazardousdoc]

uhh... bump?

 

[Xiahou Dun]

I have little more to say other then that I enjoy this matchup. It's pretty fun to play. I'm yet to lose in it but my resident Falcon has never tried ay grab release on Squirtle. Without that Squirtle is incredibly solid against Falcon as far as I've seen.

Thoughts on Falcon vs Squirtle without the grab release?

 

[Fearmy]

I know that U-tilt and Uair are your friends W/O grab release

 

[F5Hazardousdoc]

I know that U-tilt and Uair are your friends W/O grab release

Falcon should utilt against most characters, but yeah, utilt outta knock him out of aerials. If not, properly spaced bairs and high ftilts work to some degree, as well as falcon kick.

 

[Xiahou Dun]

Falcon should utilt against most characters, but yeah, utilt outta knock him out of aerials. If not, properly spaced bairs and high ftilts work to some degree, as well as falcon kick.

I'm pretty sure he was talking about Squirtle. Without the fear of the grab release up close Up Tilt > Up air allows Squirtle to easily combo Falcon(And just about anyone) for about 70% at a time if the Squirtle pulls it off right. It's just really good. It's a lot like Fox's threat-wise.

But it happens Falcon likes Up tilt and Up air too.

 

[Face124]

Why are we discussing the match-up without grab release?

 

[SaltyKracka]

Why are we discussing the match-up without grab release?

Because you won't always be grabbing Squirtle, and it's not the end of the stock if you do.

 

[Zeallyx]

Because you won't always be grabbing Squirtle, and it's not the end of the stock if you do.

But ignoring the CG is silly ^_^

 

[SaltyKracka]

But ignoring the CG is silly ^_^

But focusing only on it is sillier. There's a lot more to a matchup than CGing (unless you're DDD or the ICs. That's the only thing that makes them worthwhile)

 

[Zeallyx]

But focusing only on it is sillier. There's a lot more to a matchup than CGing (unless you're DDD or the ICs. That's the only thing that makes them worthwhile)

I understand ^_^ but talking about the matchup without the CG is futile, we should discuss the entire matchup with the CG and everything else ^_^

 

[SaltyKracka]

I understand ^_^ but talking about the matchup without the CG is futile, we should discuss the entire matchup with the CG and everything else ^_^

Or you could just ignore the CG, since everything else that needs to be said about it has been said, and actually focus on the matchup outside of it.

 

[Zeallyx]

Or you could just ignore the CG, since everything else that needs to be said about it has been said, and actually focus on the matchup outside of it.

Ohkay ^_^ ^_^

 

[Xiahou Dun]

But focusing only on it is sillier. There's a lot more to a matchup than CGing (unless you're DDD or the ICs. That's the only thing that makes them worthwhile)

Correct.

we should discuss the entire matchup with the CG and everything else ^_^

We tried. And it failed. "Squirtle's __ is *Cut off* "shield grab".
"Squirtle can ___ so *Cut off* "Jab Grab".

It seems the Falcon mains weren't capable of discussing the whole matchup. So I had to specifically request the Grab release is intentionally ignored just to get some discussion out of this...?>.<

*Yes there were exceptions. Don't take it the wrong way if you personally were able to discuss the mathup properly, unfortunately the exceptions weren't really enough to get a good discussion out of it. *

 

[Tenki]

So, discuss Falcon's U-air/B-air against Squirtle's aerials.


and maybe even D-air / side-B vs Squirtle's up-B.

 

[Player 3]

their much sexier.

oh you meant usefulness...

 

[Wogrim]

I rarely fight PT (and 1/3 of that Squirtle) so I havn't had much opportunity but he seems like he'd be easy to edgeguard if he has to use his up-B to recover, since it's so slow. If he uses it onto the stage he'll get owned, and if he goes for the ledge Falcon can probably hit him with a BAir or gimp Knee (I'm speculating here so I don't know if there's a priority problem), and Falcon Dive would probably also eat him up. I wouldn't bother trying to time/space the DAir on it, and Raptor Boost is always risky, although maybe from above towards the stage would work.

 

[Darxmarth23]

On FD, wall jumped knee is fun to do right after squirt finishes the move. I haven't played to many good squirtles so i really don't know but each time i do my opponents expect a b-air or a d-air. Never a sweeted knee...

 

[F5Hazardousdoc]

I'm pretty sure he was talking about Squirtle. Without the fear of the grab release up close Up Tilt > Up air allows Squirtle to easily combo Falcon(And just about anyone) for about 70% at a time if the Squirtle pulls it off right. It's just really good. It's a lot like Fox's threat-wise.

But it happens Falcon likes Up tilt and Up air too.

I WAS talking about squirtle. I've yet to meet somebody with aerials that would beat a utilt.

Even if its higher priority, they'll just clash. Thats how sexy utilt is as an anti air move. Which is why I use it against AERIAL SQUIRTLE.

Sweetspotted bair has some high priority too, and since if nicely spaced *ya gotta space it to GET sweetspot* it would either clash or outprioritize other aerials, or trade hits *but in squirtle vs falcon, trading hits ain't so bad for falcon*

For his weird pivot boosting, you can always expect a boosted jump or boosted grab, so its a sidestep or just simply grab if you feel awesome.

Even with all these things, squirtle is a beast and his quick aerials are great. Btw, his utilt PALES in comparison to fox's, even though its faster to cooldown. Because fox's has a TON more range. Yeah.