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Captain falcon vs Pokemon trainer: Falcon's advantage - indepth

Zeallyx

Fox mains get all the girlz
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~I am aware that we will discuss pokemon trainer in the matchup thread, but imo this deserves its own thread.~

Captain falcon seems to only have bad matchups, and seems to have trouble against every other character in the game (at least one disadvantage against every other character).


But I have done some testing, and I came to the conclusion that captain falcon has more pro's than cons against pokemon trainer, wich makes that falcon has the advantage in this matchup.

Pokemon trainer has 3 pokemon (=three different characters to face), but due to the stamina addition (making switching out almost a nescissety) and the fact that when you KO one pokemon, another comes out, and in order to change back into the pokemon they where, they have to switch pokemon twice (or if they just want the next one in line, they switch once) and when they switch, it will mostly mean a free attack. (Good pokemon trainers will not change pokemon close to you, but with falcon's CG on swuirtle and grab release>Uair on ivysaur* Charizard seems the best option, but offcourse, a CG and grab release>arial don't change the whole matchup around) So either don't let the opponent switch, or try to abuse the free hit (don't let the opponent switch without punishment)

With that said, its time to look at the individual pokemon pokemon trainer has:

VS Charizard :charizard:

Quick overview: Charizard is a large(r) opponent, so hitting/punishing him will not be too hard (especially the punishing). Charizard does not have moves that are very dangerous (altough you must always be carefull, as when he hits he can hit hard) but overall charizard is not that dangerous.

Charizards moves

Neutral A: Charizards Neutral A isn't a real threat. It does not do alot of damage, and it can be punished (without much difficulty).

Ftilt: Charizards Ftilt does 11% damage, wich is quite some damage. But charizards Ftilt is also kind of slow, making punishing it not so difficult.

Dtilt: Charizards Dtilt is quite fast (the attack itself) but it does have some after lag. This move is quite hard to punish, but not impossible offcourse. Still, This is one of Charizards harder moves to deal with.

Utilt: Charizards Utilt is also quite fast, and can hit you multiple times if you're not carefull. This can inflict quite some damage on you, and is also one of the harder moves to punish.

Fsmash: Charizards Fsmash is slow (wich makes it really punishable, with a sweet knee or Bair) but it hits hard when it connects.

Dsmash: Dsmash is quicker than Fsmash, but still not very fast. It is ahrder to punish than Fsmash, but it can still be punished very well.

Usmash: Charizards Usmash can hit you twice, and can surprise you after one or two of charizards Utilts. It does quite some damage, but is very punishable.

Nair: Charizards Nair is not very fast, but not too slow either. It has some after lag wich you can punish though. The move itself has quite some knockback too.

Fair: Fair can be a pain. It can send you flying quite far. But its afterlag can be punished nicely.

Dair: Dair can spike, so beware of that. Other than that, its quite slow and has quite some ending lag.

Uair: Uair is quite fast, and does not ahve alot of ending lag. One of the harder moves to deal with.

neutral b: when caught in Charizards flames, you can counter it easily with an Up b, or just shield it.

side b: Rocksmash hits Hard but it can be punished easily. Just watch out for this one.

Down B: Change pokemon - Make sure/try to punish this with a Dsmash or Fsmash when it happens, or even a sweet knee or falcon punch. (I recommend a smash though, as the timing is not too difficult for a smash)

Up B: Up b is kinda hard to counter, but the ending lag can be used for punishment.

Also note that Charizard can glide and has 3 jumps.

VS Squirtle :squirtle:

Quick overview Captain falcon has a CG on squirtle through a grab release (grab release>regrab) wich can even lead into an offstage falling Uair (grab release>offstage falling Uair) this gives falcon an reliable kill move on squirtle and can rack up damage nicely (by pummeling squirtle during your grab). But Squirtles aerials are quite versatile and can be hard to deal with.

Squirtle's moves:

Neutral A: Neutral A is quite fast and can be hard to get through. It can also hit multiple times if you're not carefull.


Ftilt: squirtles Ftilt is fast. It is not almost impossible to punish. Dodging it will be your best option (or shield grab).

Dtilt: Dtilt can be quite a pain. It is also quite fast and can hit multiple times. It is hard to punish but not ipossible (again, shieldgrab)

Utilt: Is also quite fast and hard to punish. You can get hit with Utilt>Utilt if you aren't carefull.

Fsmash: This move is not very slow, but still punishable. It can do quite some damage if it hits too.

Dsmash: Dsmash is also not very slow, but it can be punished during the actual move. (with a falling Dair for example).

Usmash: This move has quite some knockback, but it also has some after lag wich you can punish.

Nair: This move is quite fast and it autocancels with makes it hard to punish.

Fair: This move is also quite fast with little landing lag. And it has quite some knockback. This is one of the harder moves to deal with.

Dair: Dair can be quite a pain as it can be ahrd to get through, it also has little landing lag to punish.Uair: The move itself is quite fast, but there is a bit of landing lag you can punish. (not much though)

Neutral b: Squirtles water gun can push you away, wich can make you miss an attack. But overall this move is not really a big threat. Still watch out this move doesn't sabotage your recovery though.

Side b: This move can be avoided without too much trouble, and shield grabbing this move also isn't really hard.

up b: The move itself is kinda hard to counter, but the after lag can be punished nicely.

Note that squirtle can pivot mindgame you very well, so be carefull with that. Also note that squirtle can only escape the CG when he lands on a platform above you, try to CG him away from platforms for the best result.

VS Ivysaur:ivysaur:

Quick overview:

Ivysaur can be quite difficult to deal with. But the grab release>Uair gives falcon a reliable kill option on ivysaur. Also, as ivysaurs recovery is horrible, make sure you gimp/edghe hog him when you get him offstage.

Ivysaurs moves:

Neutral A: Neutral A can be a pain. Make sure to DI out of it, or jump over ivy and punish.

Ftilt: Ftilt can hit multiple times, but can be punished if you jump over him.

Dtilt: Dtilt is quite fast and hard to punish. But canbe shieldgrabbed without much trouble.

Utilt: Is quite fast, but not unpunishable.

Fsmash: Fsmash can hit hard but it isn't really fast (though not that slow either), but the afterlag can be punished nicely.

Dsmash: Dsmash hits on two sides and is quite fast (yet punishable)

Usmash: this move can KO at high(er) percents. It has quite some startup lag, so avoiding it shouldn't be too hard.

Nair: Nair can hit multiple times and can even spike you (although the spike hard) and can be quite difficult to get through. Also it autocancels, wich makes punishing it harder.

Fair: This move inflicts quite some damage, but it isn't very fast and it has quite some landing lag.

Dair: Dair can spike you, so watch out (as this one can spike hard(er)). It is not a very fast move, and it has qutie some ending lag. Also note that ivy will stop in mid air for a short period of time when he uses this move.

Uair: Uair does quite some damage and it makes ivy go down faster. It has quite some ending lag to punish though.

neutral b: This can rack up damage fast if you aren't carefull. Make sure to DI out of it as soon as possible when you get hit by it. If you don't get hit by it, simply punish ivy during the move.

Forward b: A projectile is always a pain, although some projectiles more than others. Ivy's projectile is not too dangerous, but can still make you approach.

Up B: Ivy's recovery is a tether recovery, so make sure to edghehog him when possible.

Conclusion:

Even though squirtles aerials and some of ivy's moves are dangerous, falcon has a reliable kill option on both, wich falcon rarely has. Also, falcon's speed give him a disadvantage especially against charizard. Falcon can rack up damage on squirtle with a CG, and every grab on ivysaur means a free Uair (wich also racks up damage). Overall falcon has quite some pro's on each of the three pokemon, and as the three pokemon need to be/are used together (wich makes the dangers not even present at all times) falcon can handle this matchup.

I'd say: 55-45 or even 60-40 Captain falcon's advantage.


This post does not matter anymore. It started the matchup discussion, wich was its purpose, and with more knoweldge about the matchup, this post has lost its purpose.

I stand by my point of falcon having an advantage over PT, but this post doesn't give the right reasons. Further posted posts of me give a better image.
 

Player-3

Smash Hero
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i repeat,
you are god.

if this is true.. and falcon has ONE advantageous matchup...
...
... we might have a chance of passing ganon if we were that close in points to him without a single one

we just need to find something on charizard now
 

SmashBrother2008

Smash Lord
Joined
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Messages
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Falcon Punch works GREAT against the switching of Pokemon. And if the PT player knows you're going to punch during a switch, they will be forced to fight to the end with a tired Pokemon. Good thread.
 

Roager

Smash Ace
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I find Ivy's Bair to be kind of spammy and painful to deal with. Also, you didn't list it in the main thread.

Other than that, I didn't really read much of the post, cuz honestly, I didn't see anything particularly new. But I'll put in a little more effort to read it sometime not so close to bed.
 

Steeler

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NNID
Steeler
yep you are completely correct. lol
lol
this is a list of stuff of why pokemon trainer loses the closest thing to a true statement in the post
lol
squirtle is easy to grab lol complete opposite
lol
ivysaur can't space and it has a falcon phirez weak lol ivy kills approaches gl hitting fsmash/pawnch
lol
charizard is very slow with everything ever because he's a heavyweight lol dash/usmash/aerials
lol
and pokemon switch is a free falcon punch. lol just lol
lol
captain falcon probably has a 65/35 or perhaps even 70/30 advantage lol
lol
good job. :) lol
 

Timothy2035

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On a Nebulae...called M78.

Miles.

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~I am aware that we will discuss pokemon trainer in the matchup thread, but imo this deserves its own thread.~

Captain falcon seems to only have bad matchups, and seems to have trouble against every other character in the game (at least one disadvantage against every other character).


But I have done some testing, and I came to the conclusion that captain falcon has more pro's than cons against pokemon trainer, wich makes that falcon has the advantage in this matchup.

Pokemon trainer has 3 pokemon (=three different characters to face), but due to the stamina addition (making switching out almost a nescissety) and the fact that when you KO one pokemon, another comes out, and in order to change back into the pokemon they where, they have to switch pokemon twice (or if they just want the next one in line, they switch once) and when they switch, it will mostly mean a free attack. (Good pokemon trainers will not change pokemon close to you, but with falcon's CG on swuirtle and grab release>Uair on ivysaur* Charizard seems the best option, but offcourse, a CG and grab release>arial don't change the whole matchup around) So either don't let the opponent switch, or try to abuse the free hit (don't let the opponent switch without punishment)

With that said, its time to look at the individual pokemon pokemon trainer has:

VS Charizard :charizard:

Quick overview: Charizard is a large(r) opponent, so hitting/punishing him will not be too hard (especially the punishing). Charizard does not have moves that are very dangerous (altough you must always be carefull, as when he hits he can hit hard) but overall charizard is not that dangerous.

Charizards moves

Neutral A: Charizards Neutral A isn't a real threat. It does not do alot of damage, and it can be punished (without much difficulty).

Ftilt: Charizards Ftilt does 11% damage, wich is quite some damage. But charizards Ftilt is also kind of slow, making punishing it not so difficult.

Dtilt: Charizards Dtilt is quite fast (the attack itself) but it does have some after lag. This move is quite hard to punish, but not impossible offcourse. Still, This is one of Charizards harder moves to deal with.

Utilt: Charizards Utilt is also quite fast, and can hit you multiple times if you're not carefull. This can inflict quite some damage on you, and is also one of the harder moves to punish.

Fsmash: Charizards Fsmash is slow (wich makes it really punishable, with a sweet knee or Bair) but it hits hard when it connects.

Dsmash: Dsmash is quicker than Fsmash, but still not very fast. It is ahrder to punish than Fsmash, but it can still be punished very well.

Usmash: Charizards Usmash can hit you twice, and can surprise you after one or two of charizards Utilts. It does quite some damage, but is very punishable.

Nair: Charizards Nair is not very fast, but not too slow either. It has some after lag wich you can punish though. The move itself has quite some knockback too.

Fair: Fair can be a pain. It can send you flying quite far. But its afterlag can be punished nicely.

Dair: Dair can spike, so beware of that. Other than that, its quite slow and has quite some ending lag.

Uair: Uair is quite fast, and does not ahve alot of ending lag. One of the harder moves to deal with.

neutral b: when caught in Charizards flames, you can counter it easily with an Up b, or just shield it.

side b: Rocksmash hits Hard but it can be punished easily. Just watch out for this one.

Down B: Change pokemon - Make sure/try to punish this with a Dsmash or Fsmash when it happens, or even a sweet knee or falcon punch. (I recommend a smash though, as the timing is not too difficult for a smash)

Up B: Up b is kinda hard to counter, but the ending lag can be used for punishment.

Also note that Charizard can glide and has 3 jumps.

VS Squirtle :squirtle:

Quick overview Captain falcon has a CG on squirtle through a grab release (grab release>regrab) wich can even lead into an offstage falling Uair (grab release>offstage falling Uair) this gives falcon an reliable kill move on squirtle and can rack up damage nicely (by pummeling squirtle during your grab). But Squirtles aerials are quite versatile and can be hard to deal with.

Squirtle's moves:

Neutral A: Neutral A is quite fast and can be hard to get through. It can also hit multiple times if you're not carefull.


Ftilt: squirtles Ftilt is fast. It is not almost impossible to punish. Dodging it will be your best option (or shield grab).

Dtilt: Dtilt can be quite a pain. It is also quite fast and can hit multiple times. It is hard to punish but not ipossible (again, shieldgrab)

Utilt: Is also quite fast and hard to punish. You can get hit with Utilt>Utilt if you aren't carefull.

Fsmash: This move is not very slow, but still punishable. It can do quite some damage if it hits too.

Dsmash: Dsmash is also not very slow, but it can be punished during the actual move. (with a falling Dair for example).

Usmash: This move has quite some knockback, but it also has some after lag wich you can punish.

Nair: This move is quite fast and it autocancels with makes it hard to punish.

Fair: This move is also quite fast with little landing lag. And it has quite some knockback. This is one of the harder moves to deal with.

Dair: Dair can be quite a pain as it can be ahrd to get through, it also has little landing lag to punish.Uair: The move itself is quite fast, but there is a bit of landing lag you can punish. (not much though)

Neutral b: Squirtles water gun can push you away, wich can make you miss an attack. But overall this move is not really a big threat. Still watch out this move doesn't sabotage your recovery though.

Side b: This move can be avoided without too much trouble, and shield grabbing this move also isn't really hard.

up b: The move itself is kinda hard to counter, but the after lag can be punished nicely.

Note that squirtle can pivot mindgame you very well, so be carefull with that. Also note that squirtle can only escape the CG when he lands on a platform above you, try to CG him away from platforms for the best result.

VS Ivysaur:ivysaur:

Quick overview:

Ivysaur can be quite difficult to deal with. But the grab release>Uair gives falcon a reliable kill option on ivysaur. Also, as ivysaurs recovery is horrible, make sure you gimp/edghe hog him when you get him offstage.

Ivysaurs moves:

Neutral A: Neutral A can be a pain. Make sure to DI out of it, or jump over ivy and punish.

Ftilt: Ftilt can hit multiple times, but can be punished if you jump over him.

Dtilt: Dtilt is quite fast and hard to punish. But canbe shieldgrabbed without much trouble.

Utilt: Is quite fast, but not unpunishable.

Fsmash: Fsmash can hit hard but it isn't really fast (though not that slow either), but the afterlag can be punished nicely.

Dsmash: Dsmash hits on two sides and is quite fast (yet punishable)

Usmash: this move can KO at high(er) percents. It has quite some startup lag, so avoiding it shouldn't be too hard.

Nair: Nair can hit multiple times and can even spike you (although the spike hard) and can be quite difficult to get through. Also it autocancels, wich makes punishing it harder.

Fair: This move inflicts quite some damage, but it isn't very fast and it has quite some landing lag.

Dair: Dair can spike you, so watch out (as this one can spike hard(er)). It is not a very fast move, and it has qutie some ending lag. Also note that ivy will stop in mid air for a short period of time when he uses this move.

Uair: Uair does quite some damage and it makes ivy go down faster. It has quite some ending lag to punish though.

neutral b: This can rack up damage fast if you aren't carefull. Make sure to DI out of it as soon as possible when you get hit by it. If you don't get hit by it, simply punish ivy during the move.

Forward b: A projectile is always a pain, although some projectiles more than others. Ivy's projectile is not too dangerous, but can still make you approach.

Up B: Ivy's recovery is a tether recovery, so make sure to edghehog him when possible.

Conclusion:

Even though squirtles aerials and some of ivy's moves are dangerous, falcon has a reliable kill option on both, wich falcon rarely has. Also, falcon's speed give him a disadvantage especially against charizard. Falcon can rack up damage on squirtle with a CG, and every grab on ivysaur means a free Uair (wich also racks up damage). Overall falcon has quite some pro's on each of the three pokemon, and as the three pokemon need to be/are used together (wich makes the dangers not even present at all times) falcon can handle this matchup.

I'd say: 55-45 or even 60-40 Captain falcon's advantage.
Let me start with I love the Falcon.

I he was my other main for a very long time in brawl.


That said this post is almost laughable.

You dont know **** about PTs move set.

And it is silly for you to say that you have anything more than an even match up.
 

Toby.

Smash Master
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This thread is funny :)

All you did was talk about how falcon can damage the pokemon, and how isolated moves could be avoided or countered. That =/= a matchup analysis.

I was going to make this a long post, but in conclusion please read IRL's post again.
 

Hiza

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If a PT main is worth his salt, He will notice you chose Falcon, then he will counterpick Ivy at the character select screen and decimate your approach with razor leaf. Also there is plenty of time in matches for a PT to change- if you aren't near them, and they get 1.5 seconds, they can change. How many times in a match have you been far away and DIing after barely surviving a hit? There's some time. Falcon's float, and ledge game will provide adequate spacing for this switch. I main Falcon with pride and poise, but I must disagree that this is an advantageous matchup. I wouldn't count on beating them unless you bring some plain old mindgames to the table. I know I can tangle with the best Texas has to offer, and I assure you that it is due to my spacing, move priority selection and mindgames. I can always rely on them.
 

AgentBranflakes

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Captain Falcon is awful against Pokemon Trainer. The only character I can beat routinely is Charizard and that's because of my opponent's mistakes. He's easy to Knee, so that's generally how I pick up my wins against him. Ivysaur is unbelievable against Doug and doesn't let you get near him. Squirtle is hard to fight against because of his size and speed.

This argument needs to be examined closer.
 

Zeallyx

Fox mains get all the girlz
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:laugh: so I do't know **** about PT's moveset..

I stand by my point.
 

Ville

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All in all it's really rather difficult to grba either squirtle or ivysaur, so it isn't that much of an advantage.
Another thing is that charizard destroys you normally, so does squirtle and so does ivy.

I'm too lazy to explain but they **** you big time.
 

F5Hazardousdoc

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Messages
580
Lol at the WELL FALCON JUST FAIL SO YEAH HE FAILS argument being put forth by the pkmn trainer mainers. Saddening that the epidemic has spread from the ganon boards.

You can't CP pokemon choice <_<... if you wanna get all technical try CPing pokemon on double blind picks. Don't know where you got that one from, but considering squirtle's the best, you'd start with him. Unless you favor another *IMO I like Ivysaur cuz he's the only one I'm good with* according to mai info he's the best of the three.

Anyways, I wanna see the grab release to uair, because we got the grab release to knee on wario *which is amazing, did it teh other day and it felt SO GOOD* If thats true, Ivy can get offstage in a hurry, leading to gimps up the arse. Squirtle's annoying, and honestly would make this a losing matchup, but if we have a CG... I can see falcon taking the advatage. Charizard is big, fat, and doesn't have Bowser's grab release, so I don't see him being BETTER than bowser, meaning we have probably neutral against him. He's easy to knee, and a huge target for psuedo combos.

Argue facts before you want to just throw away a debate Pkmn trainer mains :|

What does Ivy/Char/Squirt have on Falcon? Squirtle is self explanatory, he's a b**** to fight against, with pivot stuffs, and he's got great aerials. Ivysaur has razor leaf, and alot of range. Charizard is big and strong, and rock smash hurts bigtime. Use your pros to argue against falcon, not just say "lolfalcon" and leave :|
 

Zeallyx

Fox mains get all the girlz
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Lol at the WELL FALCON JUST FAIL SO YEAH HE FAILS argument being put forth by the pkmn trainer mainers. Saddening that the epidemic has spread from the ganon boards.

You can't CP pokemon choice <_<... if you wanna get all technical try CPing pokemon on double blind picks. Don't know where you got that one from, but considering squirtle's the best, you'd start with him. Unless you favor another *IMO I like Ivysaur cuz he's the only one I'm good with* according to mai info he's the best of the three.

Anyways, I wanna see the grab release to uair, because we got the grab release to knee on wario *which is amazing, did it teh other day and it felt SO GOOD* If thats true, Ivy can get offstage in a hurry, leading to gimps up the arse. Squirtle's annoying, and honestly would make this a losing matchup, but if we have a CG... I can see falcon taking the advatage. Charizard is big, fat, and doesn't have Bowser's grab release, so I don't see him being BETTER than bowser, meaning we have probably neutral against him. He's easy to knee, and a huge target for psuedo combos.

Argue facts before you want to just throw away a debate Pkmn trainer mains :|

What does Ivy/Char/Squirt have on Falcon? Squirtle is self explanatory, he's a b**** to fight against, with pivot stuffs, and he's got great aerials. Ivysaur has razor leaf, and alot of range. Charizard is big and strong, and rock smash hurts bigtime. Use your pros to argue against falcon, not just say "lolfalcon" and leave :|
This^

and the CG on squirtle is a fact:) (it can lead into an offstage falling Uair too:))
 

Zeallyx

Fox mains get all the girlz
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RAR into reverse uair? The FALCON STYLE TIPMAN.
Yes that could work, although I'm not sure if its fast enough :/
as the first hitbox of the Uair comes out fast, and if you want to falcon style tipman (RaR'd Uair) it will take longer to connect, and I'm not sure if it will result in an inescapable grab release follow up.
 

F5Hazardousdoc

Smash Ace
Joined
Mar 30, 2008
Messages
580
Yes that could work, although I'm not sure if its fast enough :/
as the first hitbox of the Uair comes out fast, and if you want to falcon style tipman (RaR'd Uair) it will take longer to connect, and I'm not sure if it will result in an inescapable grab release follow up.
You can hit them with falcon's body, the tipman will come out faster. I've been trying to perfect the spacing on the move, but I find myself interested in RAR kneeing. LOL.
 

Zeallyx

Fox mains get all the girlz
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C'mon now... PT has it bad enough as it is...

Don't go around saying rediculous stuff like Falcon (of all people) beats him.

or i'll sue.
Maybe PT has it bad because he has weaknesses..
wich falcon ('of all people') seems to be able to take advantage of :D
 

Jim Morrison

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Charizard is an amazing spacer, and one of his spacers is F-tilt. It's not easy to punish a good Charizard. After some practice Charizard can make you run into Rock Smashing, killing/big-time damaging you. I think of all three Charizard is the best option against Falcon, despite him being slow.

BTW, you forgot Squirtle's B-air.
 

Zeallyx

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Charizard is an amazing spacer, and one of his spacers is F-tilt. It's not easy to punish a good Charizard. After some practice Charizard can make you run into Rock Smashing, killing/big-time damaging you. I think of all three Charizard is the best option against Falcon, despite him being slow.
yeah, and good falcon's can make you run into falcon punches >_>

and I don't quite agree, squirtle is the most dangerous imo, despite having a CG on him. But that doesn't mean he's better.
 

PkTrainerCris

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Wait... dont you ever compare rocksmash with falcon punch... think it this way, the rocksmash comes out the time falcon punch's hitbox lingers, and falcon punch's startup time is like rocksmah's hitbox lingering time
On conclusion, rocksmash is relieable because its the opposite of the reason falcon punch is not reliable... its punnishable IF spammed, but we are talking about equally skilled players
 

Zeallyx

Fox mains get all the girlz
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Wait... dont you ever compare rocksmash with falcon punch... think it this way, the rocksmash comes out the time falcon punch's hitbox lingers, and falcon punch's startup time is like rocksmah's hitbox lingering time
On conclusion, rocksmash is relieable because its the opposite of the reason falcon punch is not reliable... its punnishable IF spammed, but we are talking about equally skilled players
It was just an example showing that saying 'but a good _ player will' is futile.
Yes rocksmash is better/more reliable than falcon punch, but this does not contribute to this discussion at all..as we shouldn't use falcon punch during the match..maybe to punish your down b, but that too, is unreliable due to inconsistent duration (like I said, a smash is better to punish your down b) but yeah..a good pokemon trainer player will not use down b near you....no he won't, but a good falcon player wouldn't miss the falcon punch..
(bolded lines are an example of how futile saying something like that is, just like the falcon punch example I gave responding to Gf2tW)
 

Jim Morrison

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Yes, he will. I never have seen a good PT do down-B near you. I have seen a good Falcon player (you) miss Falcon PAUNCHes. You have also hit, but that's about 40%. Rock Smash has a higher hit ratio.
 

Zeallyx

Fox mains get all the girlz
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Yes, he will. I never have seen a good PT do down-B near you. I have seen a good Falcon player (you) miss Falcon PAUNCHes. You have also hit, but that's about 40%. Rock Smash has a higher hit ratio.
Yes, I agree rock smash is better/more reliable than the falcon punch. Still, Rock smash is slow, and not the most reliable move charizard has.
 

Jim Morrison

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Not the most reliable, but it's a great damage racker. It does more damage than Falcon Punch and has is more reliable. You should see a good Charizard utilize it. Rock Smash will give you trouble. It's not a move you throw out, it's more of a punisher, or a defensive option. It would punish Falcon Kick severely. Shielding to Rock-Smash would wreck you.
 

Wogrim

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Wait... dont you ever compare rocksmash with falcon punch... think it this way, the rocksmash comes out the time falcon punch's hitbox lingers, and falcon punch's startup time is like rocksmah's hitbox lingering time
On conclusion, rocksmash is relieable because its the opposite of the reason falcon punch is not reliable... its punnishable IF spammed, but we are talking about equally skilled players
The main difference is that Rock Smash can punish the afterlag of slow moves, while with Falcon Punch you have to predict a move. In certain situations it is pretty reliable though.
 

Zeallyx

Fox mains get all the girlz
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Not the most reliable, but it's a great damage racker. It does more damage than Falcon Punch and has is more reliable. You should see a good Charizard utilize it. Rock Smash will give you trouble. It's not a move you throw out, it's more of a punisher, or a defensive option. It would punish Falcon Kick severely. Shielding to Rock-Smash would wreck you.
Yes, rocksmash is a great punish move. But as long as falcon only uses Bairs, Nairs, jabs, Dtilts/Ftilts and maybe SH knee's (without landing lag), falcon's speed will give charizard a hard time hitting him, let alone with rock smash.
 

Palpi

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Rock smash connects fully atleast one time in every match I have played or watched and partially always hit. It is fairly reliable since u can also mindgame it up and do it retreating. Though it is not that reliable considering his other move and compared to other character's move sets.
 

Zeallyx

Fox mains get all the girlz
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Rock smash connects fully atleast one time in every match I have played or watched and partially always hit. It is fairly reliable since u can also mindgame it up and do it retreating. Though it is not that reliable considering his other move and compared to other character's move sets.
Yes, again, we all agreed on this.
Can we please discuss the matchup now, instead of just one move.
 
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