Divinokage
Smash Legend
Umm.. Kou is really good, he probably made you impatient. =P
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Can Marth become top tier again?
- Thread starter Dart!
- Start date
OverLord
Smash Ace
Dreamland64 is not that good against Falco. Probably Falcos are gonna get you there or on PS as a CP.
^ Kou is very good, not to be ashamed to lose against him :O
It sounds like you're concerned with how "good" you "appear" to be rather than how good you actually are (which . . .you aren't??). If anything it is something to take and learn from but you probably can't do that and will proceed to be bad forever.
Niko45
Smash Master
Dreamland is generally overblown as far as how bad a Marth stage that is and particularly against Falco who is also pretty nerfed there punish-wise I don't understand why they keep CPing there but whatever.
Fortress | Sveet
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dreamland is good for the faster character and sometimes the character who lives longer
Archangel
Smash Hero
Falco vs Marth on Dreamland is good for Falco because it limits getting hit by Marth threw platforms but. Aside from that It's just like any other stage. I like that stay just because it gives me more room to escape pressure and kinda gauge the Falco's approach from a distance. Thats just my opinion though.
Roneblaster
Smash Hero
Brookman go die. Ur bad advice is the reason a friend of mine quit smashboards and eventually smash. You dont know **** about this game.
Worthless ****ing troll. I hope u die a slow painful firey death.
also, the reason i'm never gonna respond to one of ur worthless posts ever again is because im blocking you.
GG.
Worthless ****ing troll. I hope u die a slow painful firey death.
also, the reason i'm never gonna respond to one of ur worthless posts ever again is because im blocking you.
GG.
Fortress | Sveet
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Chris i didn't know you cared so much about my feelings
Roneblaster
Smash Hero
not you.
idgaf about you.
who are you again?
idgaf about you.
who are you again?
Zodiac
Smash Master
- Joined
- Aug 10, 2005
- Messages
- 3,557
I saw this topic and facepalmed, marth is mad good, there is no reason to ask if he can be top tier because he can already contend with every high tier character without much of a problem, his worst match up there is sheik, and even that is manageable, at this point in the meta game the high tiers have counter strategies to each other, so I think within the top four its really pointless to debate who is the best or if they could be higher lower.
Roneblaster
Smash Hero
its a topic of discussion. this whole forum is worthless. no need to talk, just play.
Nothing really wrong with discussion. Lurkers tend to learn something even if the debaters find it tedious and not very useful.
I already think Marth's top tier, but it'll just take consistent well rounded performance from a Marth main to prove it I suppose.
I already think Marth's top tier, but it'll just take consistent well rounded performance from a Marth main to prove it I suppose.
sigged .Brookman go die. Ur bad advice is the reason a friend of mine quit smashboards and eventually smash. You dont know **** about this game.
Worthless ****ing troll. I hope u die a slow painful firey death.
also, the reason i'm never gonna respond to one of ur worthless posts ever again is because im blocking you.
GG.
was that tomacawk?? whoever it was, I'm sure they are off to way more productive things than wishing my death.
GG
Roneblaster
Smash Hero
nope. sorry PP, this is a discussion free zone. we just facepalm about stuff around here.
bossa nova ♪
Smash Champion
- Joined
- Feb 15, 2010
- Messages
- 2,876
i always thought that since anyone can argue that either Falco, Fox, Marth, Sheik, or Puff is the best character in the game, that any one of those should be considered "Top Tier"...
i don't get why our tier lists break them up, there doesn't seem to be as big of a difference between fox/falco/puff and marth/sheik as there is marth/sheik and peach/falcon.... and imo, definitely not enough to split up tiers like that....
i think marth is the best in this game....
i don't get why our tier lists break them up, there doesn't seem to be as big of a difference between fox/falco/puff and marth/sheik as there is marth/sheik and peach/falcon.... and imo, definitely not enough to split up tiers like that....
i think marth is the best in this game....
Tiers were split based on vote differentials in the MBR. The good characters(however far you want to draw that line) aren't THAT far apart in viability.
Metal Reeper
Smash Champion
Melee is pretty damn well balanced
Obvious troll is obvious
What's Marth like in PAL?
Better/worse than his NTSC counterpart?
Top tier?
Archangel
Smash Hero
He's worse because he has no spike and is a slightly higher weight now but everyone else of notability is worse/nerfed so he ends up about the same.Obvious troll is obvious
What's Marth like in PAL?
Better/worse than his NTSC counterpart?
Top tier?
I would think he's increased weight would be beneficial? (Can't be followed up after shine as easy, etc.)
Archangel
Smash Hero
Also means he can die easier but really he doesn't move very far from the same spot on the PAL list though.
Zodiac
Smash Master
- Joined
- Aug 10, 2005
- Messages
- 3,557
that's true, but if I were to throw out my opinion I think if we got someone with perfect spacing at all times playing marth, and with the technical consistency of a fox player then we would see a lot more people losing to marth
Niko45
Smash Master
Perfect spacing and tech skill? Sounds like a winning formula for any character.
Divinokage
Smash Legend
Though I can see Marth mains losing to Ganons and Falcons before they can win. Marth has too many holes.. even if you play perfectly the other can do that too lol. There's counters for everything in this game.
Winston
Smash Master
He's lighter in PAL... he falls over from shine
Niko45
Smash Master
I just think Marth has all the traits that the other high tiers have. Gimmicky, mixup reliant, laggy, heavily punished, really tough matchup(s), really difficult stages to play successfully on (most of the CPs).
A marth coming out and placing high consistently is not time for the big Marth fans to go "I told you so." I'm not doubting at all that he can place really high consistently if you're good enough with him, it's just that someone doing that should be looked at like you look at a top placing Falcon or Peach. There's a lot of work to be put in to achieve that for Marth now.
I was just watching Ken at evo the other day and honestly, he's ****ing impressive. He's easily relevant today in a lot of ways. But Marth is a character who plays off his opponents a lot, and even watching him play PC in 07 I can tell spacies have really changed (top spacies for sure). There are just random DIs that are missed that are critical to whether or not Marth kills you or not. Punishes aren't as strong, nor are the edgeguards. Random tech skill drops seem more common, creating free grabs for Marth. I play PC regularly now and I just feel pretty confident that it WAS a different game, at least they didn't have the detail and speed we have now. PC says he's better now than he ever was, which I think says a lot (though he's still fantastic, he's probably not a top 5 space animal player currently). And yea, he's been semi retired for a while and I don't doubt he could get back to the top but I watch him do things he never used to do and he's still innovating it's clear that there's a lot that he needs to adapt to now, and it's not just a matter of a "different" metagame, it's a faster more efficient metagame that yes, has the same foundation as before, but yet those details make tremendous differences in results.
Even Marth's edgeguard looks flawed now. I see spacies getting back to the stage against m2k sometimes now. How is that possible? Is m2k just falling off? It never feels like I have an answer to every recovery the way he used to.
Spacies are just so crisp now that the openings for Marth have dwindled. Floaties are taking more and more advantage of the fact that Marth's close range game is abysmal. His fastest move is...dsmash? Laggy as ****, and still twice as slow as the typical jab (Fox/Falco/Sheik etc). Once any character gets in there its panic time for Marth. Get the **** out and reset is his only option really. And that's predictable. People talk about his range but really he ONLY benefits from that extended range, and not the full range of the sword because the inner part of that sword is massively CCable, IE not an option a lot of the time. Yes he's godly at a certain distance, but he's just as bad at other ones.
He can win for sure but you have to acknowledge that he has a lot of problems.
A marth coming out and placing high consistently is not time for the big Marth fans to go "I told you so." I'm not doubting at all that he can place really high consistently if you're good enough with him, it's just that someone doing that should be looked at like you look at a top placing Falcon or Peach. There's a lot of work to be put in to achieve that for Marth now.
I was just watching Ken at evo the other day and honestly, he's ****ing impressive. He's easily relevant today in a lot of ways. But Marth is a character who plays off his opponents a lot, and even watching him play PC in 07 I can tell spacies have really changed (top spacies for sure). There are just random DIs that are missed that are critical to whether or not Marth kills you or not. Punishes aren't as strong, nor are the edgeguards. Random tech skill drops seem more common, creating free grabs for Marth. I play PC regularly now and I just feel pretty confident that it WAS a different game, at least they didn't have the detail and speed we have now. PC says he's better now than he ever was, which I think says a lot (though he's still fantastic, he's probably not a top 5 space animal player currently). And yea, he's been semi retired for a while and I don't doubt he could get back to the top but I watch him do things he never used to do and he's still innovating it's clear that there's a lot that he needs to adapt to now, and it's not just a matter of a "different" metagame, it's a faster more efficient metagame that yes, has the same foundation as before, but yet those details make tremendous differences in results.
Even Marth's edgeguard looks flawed now. I see spacies getting back to the stage against m2k sometimes now. How is that possible? Is m2k just falling off? It never feels like I have an answer to every recovery the way he used to.
Spacies are just so crisp now that the openings for Marth have dwindled. Floaties are taking more and more advantage of the fact that Marth's close range game is abysmal. His fastest move is...dsmash? Laggy as ****, and still twice as slow as the typical jab (Fox/Falco/Sheik etc). Once any character gets in there its panic time for Marth. Get the **** out and reset is his only option really. And that's predictable. People talk about his range but really he ONLY benefits from that extended range, and not the full range of the sword because the inner part of that sword is massively CCable, IE not an option a lot of the time. Yes he's godly at a certain distance, but he's just as bad at other ones.
He can win for sure but you have to acknowledge that he has a lot of problems.
Dart!
Smash Master
thank god. all those noob posts are gone. i love the ignore button.
thanks for that niko, very well said.
thanks for that niko, very well said.
Fortress | Sveet
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Very nice post niko, very nice.
Tee ay eye
Smash Hero
Jab is one frame faster
Niko45
Smash Master
either way, really slow startup and much more lag than most characters jabs
Dart!
Smash Master
can marth jab-upsmash -kill/combo people? no
can marth jab-downsmash -kill/combo people? no
can marth jab-downsmash -kill/combo people? no
I love Marth's jab. I play Mewtwo. He has an 8 frame jab. I love everyone's jab.
Harbinger
Smash Apprentice
I think everyone should just play niko's style and set up tipper on platforms 9-5.
Fuss
Smash Apprentice
Marff is amazing, just requires dem patience and effective spacing, something people seem to lack.
Fortress | Sveet
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I think marth is forced into either 2 styles, one is the defensive zoning character like how m2k plays. The other is a chaotic marth that focuses on aggression and stays unpredictable so its much harder to pin him down, like how tink plays. There can't really be an inbetween.
JBM falcon08
Smash Master
I'd like to say Ken's marth is a better example of aggro.
Zodiac
Smash Master
- Joined
- Aug 10, 2005
- Messages
- 3,557
They may lose at first but once they learn that marth has a very good match up vs falcon, and should hardly ever lose to ganon (provided both players are the same skill level) honestly ganon is easy, he can only be pushed so far speed wise, and save a few moves marth has the range advantage, not to mention if ganon approaches marth he should get punished up and down for it.
OverLord
Smash Ace
Pretty sure it's "fiery".Worthless ****ing troll. I hope u die a slow painful firey death.