Can Marth become top tier again?

[Brookman]

I think the lack of response to CB so far is a testament to the astounding level of verbal diarrhea achieved in one post.

 

[Niko45]

Reneblade honestly covered it with the whole "get better" summary but as a gentleman I will do the honor of reading everything you said and responding to everything as well (as best I can).

Gimmicky- don't understand the word so leaving this alone.

In terms of gimmicky, I meant that in terms of gimps. Mango vs Taj is a great example. Get 3 stocked in the 2 games you lose, while scraping out 3 victories in the same set through simply down throwing and making a good read IE making a good guess IE getting lucky on some level (sorry Taj, not trying to take anything away from what you did because you deserved that ****. I'm just talking on a character level). Causes huge volatility in outcomes in certain matchups, very difficult to be consistent with.

mixup reliant- if you want to win you have to be mixup reliant with everyone.

The key word here is reliant. you're also really talking about players. All top players are great at mixups, not even a question. All top characters have less and less scenarios in which mixups are necessary, however, since guaranteed punishes/total option covering is immeasurably valuable in this game. Marth is reliant on taking advantage of situations in which the opponent has options IE the opponent could escape IE Marth must outplay.

laggy- quit swinging your sword so much? Or at least change when you swing it. Marth has big moves, if you connect or at least pressure with them or with their existence then they're still incredibly threatening.

You're lecturing me on being a better player. I'm not mad. I don't disagree, you're just missing the point. Lets talk facts about characters and not players. Marth has an extremely high ratio of move lag to hitbox duration. Meaning, his hitboxes are out the shortest compared to how long the actual lag of the total move is. Translation: abnormally great precision, both in timing and spacing, is necessary for Marth.

heavily punished- everyone is heavily punished. well most everyone but that's the majority of the upper tiers anyway.

As you seem to have realized mid-sentence, no, not everyone is punished heavily. Lots of people are, though, I'm not claiming that Marth is unique in that category. It just, uh, doesn't help things lol.

really tough matchups- NAH DAWG. He's got....Sheik? I could see Falcon as another, but after that no way does that guy have tough matchups. Sheik is entirely doable at top level too(if I can beat M2K's sheik with marth in tournament then so can you).

There's something really funny about the guy most notorious for undervaluing Falco's matchups against the cast talking about how good Marth's matchups are. Also, I fear no sheik, and I don't need to in order to acknowledge that it's still an easier matchup for sheik. Falcon v Marth is even. **** Falcon. Problem is Marth's not winning enough of his matchups. I'll give you that, for a high tier, he's uniquely strong vs spacies, but he's not winning enough matchups. And the matchups he is winning? He doesn't win them convincingly enough.

Anyone can boast that they told us so if Marth starts ******....or any character for that matter. PBnJ quoting Lambchops about a "m2k-type peach" at genesis 1 is just proof that it happens with every character that does well.

It takes an amazing amount of work to be successful with any character. They aren't that far apart in difficulty or viability, the upper guys, and it comes down to player abilities. Isai ran stuff with Falcon for a good while because that guy was really creative and talented. Bum did DK stuff at MLGs. Does that mean Bum did more work than everyone since DK is worse? Not necessarily. It means he was talented enough as a player to show more of DK's potential and prove that some matchups in Melee aren't as bad as they seem.

Completely agree about all of that. The whole idea of top tier and high tier and even mid tier is extremely blurred now. Viable vs non-viable is more how I like to view the game. In any case, your examples of players pushing characters involves mid/high tier characters - where's the relevance to Marth being top tier. I've already stated that I believe in Marth and that he can most definitely win.

Spacies were behind then just as Marth was behind then. If you want Marth to be relevant now though YOU(sort of to you but really a general you) have to make him relevant now. No one else is doing it now like they are for spacies, but the game can get sorted out just fine if someone doesn't get so concerned with matchups or their character's potential and just work on their personal skills and goals. Just because you haven't seen Marth destroying everything like he used to doesn't mean he suddenly lost the ability. He just lost the players who usually showed it. Believe in Marth imo.

You're assuming so much. I think you think I'm a complainer. That I'm whining about Marth's lack of brokenness. I don't need to see youtube videos of pros playing my character to have confidence in him. I'm way way beyond that dude. My point about ken at Evo is that things like missing DI or messing up tech skill really really favors Marth and those adjustments, among others, that have been made now really hurt his overall character.

M2K is an emo doofus(except for genesis 2) now that never practices his game. The fact that spacies don't make it back vs him all the time is a testament to how solid Marth's edgeguarding is and how solid m2k's edgeguarding ideas were/are. Also make your improvements to M2K's edgeguards if you see something not working for him every time....he's not the Marth god or anything.

Crisp spacies? Gotta trick em more. Use different moves and movements.

The point about m2k was just a lazy point because everyone considers m2k a god at edgeguarding spacies. Believe me, I don't think m2k is the end-all of Marth. As far as I'm concerned m2k gave up on Marth long long ago. I plan on pushing him further. In regards to edgeguarding spacies tho, Marth doesn't *really* cover shortened illusion completely nor does he cover every up B angle (with good initial DI) to a fully KOable level. My point is that characters have found ways around what used to be considered valuable automatic Marth assets. And before you lecture me to get better at edgeguarding, dont' worry, I'm working on it.

Floaties like being close? Well first of all don't let them get there you have a huge sword, but second it's entirely possible to retreat out of those scenarios. Grab and random stuff like Dsmash can help too for mixups. A good rule to usually follow though is if you don't like a certain situation then you need to work around avoiding it. You usually can as long as you don't get so focused on it that you make yourself predictable.

You have the ability to adjust your range like them. If you surprise someone then they won't just keep CC'ing or will miss punishes because they weren't expecting you to do something. You just have to get creative and play on Marth's strengths or your own. Saying he sucks at some ranges is like me whining that Falco sucks everywhere offstage. Yeah Falco dies offstage a lot but he's got some great tricks too, just as Marth has some bad ranges but he can also adjust them or use some to his advantage as a surprise or with a move/movement people don't expect.

Actually I think saying Marth is abysmal and exploitable at a certain range on stage is much different than saying Falco's recovery is average/arguably above average. /real talk

See you think I'm whining but I assure you that I'm trying to get around these things as a player, which is completely besides the point. In the oh-so-critical context of whether or not Marth is a top tier, however, I will gladly point out one of his biggest flaws. The whole jab thing was supposed to be an EXAMPLE, an ILLUSTRATION, of one of Marth's biggest flaws. Just imagine him with a 2 frame jab. Pretty ****, right?

He can win for sure but it just takes someone confident in Marth and their own abiliti27432es. Blaming the character is a really big problem I see people having and if everyone would just focus on their personal abilities and realize that others have succeeded with their own character well or done great feats with worse characters than it can really make a difference. I never even cared about Falco's matchups until people started asking me about them lol. Half the time I never even knew what to tell them because I just knew strategies Falco should use to counter theirs. It might help to just forget that there are such difficulties is all I'm suggesting.

I totally agree. Are we disagreeing? You basically are assuming that I am the type of player who blames their character, while I'm well aware that lots of people have this problem. I think my character is great dude, don't worry. I just don't think he is a top tier, genuinely. Clearly you think he is a top tier, and therefore you assume I am a whiner. I have a different opinion is all. I love this above paragraph aside from the fact that you suggest I am one of these people just because I don't agree with you on how good Marth as a character is.

You focus on the negatives too much dude. =(

Instead of being upset about Marth's lack of spacie jab, why not think of ways to set up more kills from multiple scenarios or strengthen your juggle/edgeguard game so that once you get an advantageous position at higher percent you (eventually) get a kill off of it anyway?

Not upset. Again, it was an example to demonstrate why his short range game is actually really bad. And to take that further, the point of bringing up that he's bad at a certain range (lots of characters are bad at certain ranges, after all) was that everyone pro-marth always, as you stereotypically did, talked about his "big sword" and his "great range" and those things are great, but that big sword? Turns out it's double-edged.

Lol I wish people ran at my Marth and shielded. I approach with grab a lot to stop that mess.

So do I. This is a mixup/read situation. You can get ***** for that if you're wrong. I'm guessing you probably don't do that every time, so my guess is (although you're a top player, your reads are probably godly) SOMETIMES you get caught misspacing by a shield approach. Don't front.

Condition in a new way so that those moves to catch someone coming out of their shield are better. Use different moves or different spacings to poke or attack their OOS game with. Get creative.

Any character can get creative. You're talking to me as a player, not as Marth. The fact that Marth needs to go get creative in situations that come naturally to the top tier characters further emphasizes MY point. There's no reason to get creative at all until your character starts showing some flaws.

And stop thinking about his jab LOOOOOL Marth's jab is cool but yeah used in different ways.

Again, it was an example. -_-

You think I'm a whiner, but I promise I'm the exact opposite. I'm trying my *** off with Marth and I'm definitely seeing results. Give me some time and you'll notice too. You focused on this more than anything in your post, despite the topic being about Marth as a character on the tier list. My view of him on the tier list is that he is a character with great potential but needs more work than the top characters to win a full national tournament based on his flaws. You disagree, I'm aware, but don't make this about me as a player. You clearly wanted to lecture me. I don't disagree about anything in regards to getting creative or getting better or believing in my character etc. It's just that that lecture is not relevant to Marth being top tier or not.

 

[Archangel]

Marth has a Legacy() going back to the early days of overcoming tough opposition to emerge as #1. Now recent years Marth has slowly been stripped of his title and is almost never viewed as a character that would win a national/international. Why? I personally believe it to be a case of following the leader(s). As long as The leaders(Ken/Mew2King...etc) were winning everything people believed in them and their characters ability to win. When that stopped happening Marth Main's as a whole seemed lost. Is it a coincidence that Marth "died" right after Mango took the crown from M2K? Also the *****ing about MU's started around that time as well...coincidence? I don't think so.

Marth's were/are spoiled plain and simple. The people who played them came to expect everything to come easy especially as Marth evolved between the 06-08. Then Marth stopped winning and it's leader started complaining...changing long standing opinions on match-ups like Falcon vs Marth for example simply because having the title of "best Marth ever" granted him that power among people with like/weaker minds. Mew2King was part of a revolutionary change not just as one of the people that helped push the game beyond it's previous limits but also as one to change the philosophy of melee in general. The era of Playing threw tough MU's until you learn how to win was going out. The era of extreme Counterpick Characters/Stages was coming in and that I believe is how we got to where we are now. Marth Main's like most other historically popular characters were all inspired by Ken/M2K/Strawhat/Kizzu/Musashi...someone like that. So in the absence of guidance from these players as for how to overcome struggles most just accept what's handed down to them without question or exploration of their own.

I think the first thing Marths need to do is get over themselves as a whole. Stop saying to yourself "M2K can't do it so I can't". Acceptance of him as the highest possible level of Marth is the reason why Marths aren't progressing. Self-defeated mentality will not bring victory only defeat. Jason is still very good considering he doesn't train and rarely plays Marth anymore. Once again "Follow the leader" mentality comes out and almost all up and coming, promising Marth players start picking up Sheik, Fox, or Falco as alternates so they can cowardly escape stressful MU's. This is exactly what We DON'T need to happen. Marth players right now need to start thinking like Falcons have in recent years. Falcon main's have their share of complaints but they are loyal to their character and will never cop out even if it means losing. Until Marths are willing to adopt this way of thinking, Stick to their Main, and forget about looking for the next great Marth to lead them out of darkness then...I don't think Marth will ever return to top tier or #1 at national/international.

I think what we are leaning in a new direction though. 2 years time Marth goes from dead to flooding alot of tournaments now. The Marth rep at Zenith was amazing and uplifting and same for Genesis2. If enough of us Keep at it with the resolve Marth main's once had then I think a return to the top in imminent. Taj's Victory was just the first of many like that and greater that are on the way.

Taj's Win was 1 small step for him, 1 Giant leap for Marth Mains.(couldn't resist).




HOLY **** THAT'S ALOT!

 

[Dr Peepee]

Ah, I see what it is.

Well Niko, I'll bow out of this discussion then. I don't believe I have it in me at this current time to make a better point.

Good luck Marths! =)

 

[Roneblaster]

That was a good post spam, but i just want to nitpick 2 things.

I dont think anyone of reasonable skill thinks "if m2k cant do it then neither can i"

And 2, make more marth videos, ***.

 

[Archangel]

That was a good post spam, but i just want to nitpick 2 things.

I dont think anyone of reasonable skill thinks "if m2k cant do it then neither can i"

And 2, make more marth videos, ***.

Between you and me I got my **** working and I'm editing scenes for legacy 3 already but it's going to be a surprise so don't tell anyone .

oh and you'd be surprised how many people base their thoughts and feelings off other players they deem to be better.

still thanks for the compliment. I don't make too many "good posts" because it leads to trouble like...MBR positions or being a moderator

 

[Dart!]

IMO, m2k doesn't play marth enough. i don't actually like using him in discussions for marth unless we're talking spacies MU's.

with that out of the way, i feel like marth's don't have a "top dog player" like falco's do in peepee
or peach players do in armada etc. Right now, i think that marth as a character is going through a build up phase IE waiting til someone goes big consistently in tourney...when taj niko ppu tai start winning or placing top 3/5 at locals/regionals/and even nationals marth will then have a "standard" which people can look at and then set goals to achieve/outdo.

I feel like everytime i do "well" in tourney in hindsight i do actually pretty bad in my opinion. Until i can go to a tournament and say "i did my absolute best at the skill level i am right now" then i will be happy with how i do. What i'm trying to say is not that "i think i should always win" but i hate hate HATE leaving a tournament thinking i really let myself and possibly a few others down (genesis2)

 

[Niko45]

IMO, m2k doesn't play marth enough. i don't actually like using him in discussions for marth unless we're talking spacies MU's.

with that out of the way, i feel like marth's don't have a "top dog player" like falco's do in peepee
or peach players do in armada etc. Right now, i think that marth as a character is going through a build up phase IE waiting til someone goes big consistently in tourney...when taj niko ppu tai start winning or placing top 3/5 at locals/regionals/and even nationals marth will then have a "standard" which people can look at and then set goals to achieve/outdo.

I feel like everytime i do "well" in tourney in hindsight i do actually pretty bad in my opinion. Until i can go to a tournament and say "i did my absolute best at the skill level i am right now" then i will be happy with how i do. What i'm trying to say is not that "i think i should always win" but i hate hate HATE leaving a tournament thinking i really let myself and possibly a few others down (genesis2)

Don't forget about yourself. :D But yea I agree m2k isn't really pushing Marth anymore it seems so it's up to the new gen of Marths that are just not quite ready yet imo, but definitely will be on the radar in the (hopefully near) future.

 

[Archangel]

Don't forget about yourself. :D But yea I agree m2k isn't really pushing Marth anymore it seems so it's up to the new gen of Marths that are just not quite ready yet imo, but definitely will be on the radar in the (hopefully near) future.

exactly. Us stepping up is all that it takes. I hate to use Falcon as an example again but...I will.

Isai moves out, SS, DarkRain, Scar step up.

SS,DarkRain, Scar move/slowly moving out.

Hax, S2J, Nando, GG7 move in/Moving in. I also see about 3 others who will be moving in within the next year or so based on their rate of improvement.

We need people to start stepping up. I'm not waiting for any of you. <3 and Respect but I'm aiming to be the best marth myself...**** you guys .

 

[Niko45]

Sidenote, I'm calling it now. Within a year, Hax$ will be an Armada-like player, making Falcon look unprecedentedly scary. The things that I've seen....I can not unsee.

 

[leffen]

marth > peach. peach won g2.


quit being whiny crybabys who johns like little girls. perhaps its the tiara?

 

[Roneblaster]

Hi leffen.

I already think hax is the 2nd best player in the world, but falcon is holding him back from tourney placing. So in other words niko, i agree. Eventually no1 will stop the beast that is Haxmoolah. Aka i think hax will be the player to completely flesh out falcon as a character, him and s2j.

 

[Archangel]

marth > peach. peach won g2.


quit being whiny crybabys who johns like little girls. perhaps its the tiara?

why are you trying to troll? if Marth>Peach why has Peach>Marth existed for about 2 years now??????????????????????????

Anyways You didn't do much better than the Marths here...you didn't do as well as Armada did so...why did you bother flying here?

 

[Roneblaster]

Cause hes a worthless troll, just ignore him.

 

[Niko45]

He flew out to show us all how much he sucks.

@Rene - yea I agree Falcon has held him back and he's an insanely talented player. But yea it's approaching the point where it doesn't even matter that it's Falcon for him. He's gonna change the game.

 

[Strong Badam]

poor hax, he always runs into someone stupidly good round 2 and then tears through loser's and still places well. mad good but has the worst luck bracket-wise LOL

 

[Winston]

^ I love hax as much as the next guy, but that's not exactly what happened at genesis 2

edit: okay I don't want to sound disrespectful to Taj. I do think it was a very winnable matchup to get for Hax, though. I think most people considered him the favorite in it. Round 2 winners is the top half of the bracket level players. So, more or less the top 16 players at the tournament. It's not like he got Armada, Hbox, Mango, etc. is what I'm saying.

 

[Divinokage]

Wow wow.. in R2 G2 brackets.. you HAD to face a godlike player.. lol. No johns.

 

[Strong Badam]

truu
pound 4 tho he went up against hbox round 2 still got 5th LOL

 

[Niko45]

the tough part of hax's bracket was losers not winners. Playing Fly for 13th and then PP for 9th is pretty brutal.

 

[Taj278]

I'm free though.

 

[Brookman]

nobody's gona argue that one, taj.

 

[Niko45]

was that set recorded btw? Still hoping to see it.

 

[leffen]

Anyways You didn't do much better than the Marths here...you didn't do as well as Armada did so...why did you bother flying here?

"He flew out to show us all how much he sucks"

woooow oh snap! What horrifying insults!
Too bad I'm not a marth main, otherwise you'd get a essay about how hard my pools and bracket was and general QQing about my characters like you guys would do

 

[Roneblaster]

yo leffen good **** vs s2j.

 

[leffen]

I dont even know if thats a compliment or not. Sneaky little girl.

 

[Roneblaster]

its both. but it doesnt involve dart so i can understand why u may not be able to tell what im saying.

 

[Max?]

I'm free though.

I guess PP is free too then huh ?

 

[leffen]

its both. but it doesnt involve dart so i can understand why u may not be able to tell what im saying.

Hmm, how could I not see it? Its not because its me and you love dart, and it is because you LOVE dart. My bad.

 

[Tee ay eye]

leffen actually has a pretty good point beneath the surface of his original post

marth is a better character than peach. i think most/all of us can agree on this.

armada pushed peach far enough to win G2, and he didn't really make excuses or make tons of posts in a "Can Peach become top tier again?" thread to discuss the topic, he just went out, grinded the game, and did it.... so there's no reason that we can't push marth, a better character, to the same point that armada pushed peach.

 

[Roneblaster]

Peach had never been top tier. Shes never had a drastic falling off in the tier list.

 

[Brookman]

I am not certain how we came to the conclusion that marth is a better character than peach.

 

[Niko45]

how did we get on the topic of marth compared to peach in the first place? Leffen came out of nowhere with that from what I saw.

leffen actually has a pretty good point beneath the surface of his original post

marth is a better character than peach. i think most/all of us can agree on this.

armada pushed peach far enough to win G2, and he didn't really make excuses or make tons of posts in a "Can Peach become top tier again?" thread to discuss the topic, he just went out, grinded the game, and did it.... so there's no reason that we can't push marth, a better character, to the same point that armada pushed peach.

I don't think anyone was saying Marth can't win a national. Are you saying that Peach is a top tier now?

 

[Brookman]

Roneblaster: "Another user with an L avatar?? *adds to ignore list* "

I like how dart ignores me, too. Like it's the thing to do now. Just cause I came into his topic dropping logic like a freight train.

****, half the **** I say I just make it up to make you mad, so kiss my white naked ***.

 

[Max?]

I am not certain how we came to the conclusion that marth is a better character than peach.

I agree whole heartedly. It's way harder to gauge what makes a character good or bad nowadays and I feel statements such as "We know marth is a better character" are based on information from an outdated metagame.

Roneblaster: "Another user with an L avatar?? *adds to ignore list* "

I like how dart ignores me, too. Like it's the thing to do now. Just cause I came into his topic dropping logic like a freight train.

****, half the **** I say I just make it up to make you mad, so kiss my white naked ***.

LOLLLLLL <3

 

[Harbinger]

We need people to start stepping up. I'm not waiting for any of you. <3 and Respect but I'm aiming to be the best marth myself...**** you guys .

While the majority of spam_arrows posts are on par with babbling-toddler-speak, I do believe he is on to something with this post.

I think, what PP is actually getting at is probably:

"Stop sucking at improving."

-but you won't see this cause you're dumb enough to block me.

LoooooooooL Why would anyone block this guy?


Peach has always been a strong, competitive character. From KJ, to vidjo and cort, and now to Armada taking peach all the way.

It is like Niko says, we know these characters are VIABLE. It's just a matter of a player/group of players taking them up to bat and not striking out. No one even has to place first, just consistently well, doing new and interesting (define interesting??) things . . . but . . . I digressss

 

[Roneblaster]

Its sad that u can see ppls posts after u block them, if some1 quotes it...

I said that too brookman, i dont need ur ignorance flooding up my view to read some1s post.

 

[Harbinger]

I said that too brookman, i dont need ur ignorance flooding up my view to read some1s post.

 

[Tee ay eye]

peach was actually looking pretty bad from like, 08 until the first genesis

or pretty much, during the transition from cort to armada
when the only peaches were pink shinobi and vwins
in america, anyway
before americans REALLY gave armada the light of day; i'm pretty sure europe knew what was up before genesis, but we didn't

 

[Harbinger]

I blame brawl.

edit your post more, bro.

no really, im enjoying watching it change.