Can Marth become top tier again?

[Jonas]

I love Marth's jab. I play Mewtwo. He has an 8 frame jab. I love everyone's jab.

Ganon's jab

<3

 

[Dark Sonic]

Marth's jab is unsafe on hit Q_Q

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Idk marth's jab has untapped potential imo.

 

[Divinokage]

They may lose at first but once they learn that marth has a very good match up vs falcon, and should hardly ever lose to ganon (provided both players are the same skill level) honestly ganon is easy, he can only be pushed so far speed wise, and save a few moves marth has the range advantage, not to mention if ganon approaches marth he should get punished up and down for it.

And then there's Sheik too. But Ganon/Marth is a tough matchup to be really good at. I didn't see many Marths that is good at the matchup. lol. Nor Ganons.

 

[Jonas]

Marth's jab is unsafe on hit Q_Q

You should Dtilt instead of jab.
Marth's jab can sometimes be used to edgeguard because it sort of has an awkward angle at high percents. It's especially good at guarding against Illusion and Phantasm.

 

[Dart!]

I think marth is forced into either 2 styles, one is the defensive zoning character like how m2k plays. The other is a chaotic marth that focuses on aggression and stays unpredictable so its much harder to pin him down, like how tink plays. There can't really be an inbetween.

tink needs to polish that marth. its so ineffective most of the time. still wins though when he does pull him out. which is never

 

[Brookman]

Its not even* amazing how far down hill this topic has gone so quickly. Anybody going out to a tournament this weekend?? Niko, you going to no johns??

 

[Niko45]

Of course homie

 

[Max?]

Brookman you should come and bring Liquor so I'm not completely miserable.

 

[Harbinger]

I want to see less baddies posting. and more . . . drpp.


wtf is anyone talking about tink??

 

[Brookman]

I'm considering, but seeing as I am terrible at this game it doesn't make much sense to travel to a tournament in NY.

You should Dtilt.

I've only been saying this since. . . oh page 1?

 

[Niko45]

Too bad down tilt, in the context of using it for close range play like a fox/falco/sheik jab is completely unsafe on block or hit and will get you *****.

 

[Brookman]

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=280608

 

[Winston]

But so are... fox/falco/sheik's jabs? They aren't really close range "clear you out" moves.

I don't really get why it'd be super beneficial for Marth to have a move like that. I mean you can get away with it sometimes, but it doesn't seem like it expands his game strategically since it's not an option you can rely on.

 

[ZoSo]

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=280608

Man what a great thread.

Also lern2 cc grab when people jab a lot for no reason.

 

[Niko45]

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=280608

Completely irrelevant bait mixup thing. Not what I'm talking about.

But so are... fox/falco/sheik's jabs? They aren't really close range "clear you out" moves.

I don't really get why it'd be super beneficial for Marth to have a move like that. I mean you can get away with it sometimes, but it doesn't seem like it expands his game strategically since it's not an option you can rely on.

I feel like you see the game as way too black and white. Just because something is not guaranteed **** doesn't mean it's not an amazing option to have. Have you ever done anything positive ever with fox's jab? Yea, Marth would like to do that too. Just because it can be CC'd and therefore isn't broken etc doesn't mean it's not fantastic. It's a major defensive asset at close range and also offensively, it would do WONDERS for Marth as far as finding that tricky KO at high percent. I would at the very least like to have a jab that ***** when my opponent doesn't CC (which happens all the time).

 

[Brookman]

I always thought that's what forward b was for. ??

Ironically, I used that down tilt **** vs. zoso's sheik last time we played. It was hilarious.

 

[Winston]

Hmm, does the "too black and white" comment come from our discussion about edgeguarding? Or from all my posts? curious to know

In this case, it's not that I dismiss it just because it doesn't always work, as I tried to say in my first post. It may be just due to my personal underuse of jabs, or not being observant enough, but I don't really picture it solving a problem Marth has. Of course it'd be an upgrade. (Though would it be a big enough upgrade to offset losing jab as an edgeguarding move vs. illusion?)

In high level play, for the most part I see Foxes use jab offensively during resets, pressure, or pseudocombos, and not so much close range defense. Marth definitely could use a better jab reset though.

Sheik, jab resets and spaced pokes. Falco, mostly spaced pokes/pressure.

I guess the other issue I have is I don't really see the situations where someone has gotten "in" on Marth, but hasn't actually hit Marth. When/how often does this occur?

 

[Winston]

edit: double post

 

[Max?]

Dave, come to NY so we can hang. Everytime I play you I get like 1000x better.

 

[Niko45]

Black and White may have been a poor choice of words but it was kind of related to the counter thing as in like, even tho spacies can on paper get around counter edgeguard in practice it's still difficult for them to do and you should at least make them prove they can do it (at least specifically talking about teching or just sweetspotting underneath - if there are obvious angles they can do to avoid counter then yes I agree definitely not the right option).

But back to jabbing - a lot of characters get in on marth by shield approaching so it would give marth at least a mixup for pressuring that type of thing, as well as a defensive option in case they forced an unexpected misspacing with their approach.

And yea basically it would help him out approach wise big time because it would be a way to continue pressure or get some cheaper hits. Forward B or up tilt are much riskier ways to try to catch someone coming out of their shield, and if you don't catch them it's big trouble.

I mean, can we at least agree overall that Marth would really benefit from having sheik's jab instead of the one he has?

 

[Brookman]

Dave, come to NY so we can hang. Everytime I play you I get like 1000x better.

which is weird considering how bad dave is . . . unless. . .


anyway, there is no point in longing for a better jab at this point.
Let's get back to talking about more important things.
Like Marth players increasing their playing speed <-- serious/not serious --> and reacting perfectly in all cases while also spacing perfectly and 0-deathing perfectly.

id really like it if my sig would show up now, cause i been trying to show it off for days. I mean, really, how much does it take to make my sig show up?? is there a reason it is such a pain???

one more lin e of text.

 

[Max?]

I mean, I **** that *****, but I always feel like I'm playing really good vs. other people after I play with him specifically. No idea why, its like Rare Candies.

 

[Winston]

haha, a tangent about the whole countering argument thing...

the reason I argued so much about counter isn't because of theory but because of playing Wenbo a ton and (at least on FD/DL) always getting ***** for it. So it was a really practical concern for me. Later on after switching to Fox I found it really isn't that hard to do and I've been a beneficiary of most Marth players' tendency to counter in that situation since. (I definitely use it if they're super close though and don't have room to do any angles, but that's not usually the case).

You are definitely right that it's a very good choice vs most players at the moment. I just think that someday it will be standard and when that happens it'll be really good to have mastered the edgeguards that are harder to execute but more guaranteed. I mean, shortening is starting to catch on now and is starting to obsolete a lot of traditional edgeguarding formulas (not specific to marth).

And I didn't mean to make such a big deal out of the jab discussion, haha. Sure, I can agree with that.

 

[SnakeMan]

A few things:

Marths jab is not good,imo. It can be used, but is quite situational. Having a jab that would push ppl back to ideal range would be nice, but he doesnt, so whatever, no johns. When your being crowded I find the best options are dtilt, counter, or wd back. Probably the best we got to work with.

Love brookmans posts. Cuz he's funny, yet still makes posts that are on point and da truth most of the time.

Taj rules and needs to post more on marth boards when he's not busy spreading the gospel bout marth/mewtwo and beasting.

Marth has range and damage at the expense of laggy punishable moves and an inability to pressure shield as well as the other top tier chars in this game. All this means that mixups and mindgames become even more important, and so much like some of the lower tiers, marth could be considered more of a thinking man's character. So marth mains, lets go out there and get it done.

The more I play marth, the more I feel utilt is perhaps his best move and that everything I do should try to lead into getting the opponent above me so I can utilt with almost no risk of being punished.

 

[Divinokage]

Umm you should learn how to jab reset with Marth, it's amazing, I've seen multiple times after a throw, it's mean. lol. Or just after a knockdown or something idk.

 

[Roneblaster]

Perfect spacing and tech skill? Sounds like a winning formula for any character.

Thank you so much for being you.

I l o v e love the way u think.

 

[Dr Peepee]

I just think Marth has all the traits that the other high tiers have. Gimmicky, mixup reliant, laggy, heavily punished, really tough matchup(s), really difficult stages to play successfully on (most of the CPs).

A marth coming out and placing high consistently is not time for the big Marth fans to go "I told you so." I'm not doubting at all that he can place really high consistently if you're good enough with him, it's just that someone doing that should be looked at like you look at a top placing Falcon or Peach. There's a lot of work to be put in to achieve that for Marth now.

I was just watching Ken at evo the other day and honestly, he's ****ing impressive. He's easily relevant today in a lot of ways. But Marth is a character who plays off his opponents a lot, and even watching him play PC in 07 I can tell spacies have really changed (top spacies for sure). There are just random DIs that are missed that are critical to whether or not Marth kills you or not. Punishes aren't as strong, nor are the edgeguards. Random tech skill drops seem more common, creating free grabs for Marth. I play PC regularly now and I just feel pretty confident that it WAS a different game, at least they didn't have the detail and speed we have now. PC says he's better now than he ever was, which I think says a lot (though he's still fantastic, he's probably not a top 5 space animal player currently). And yea, he's been semi retired for a while and I don't doubt he could get back to the top but I watch him do things he never used to do and he's still innovating it's clear that there's a lot that he needs to adapt to now, and it's not just a matter of a "different" metagame, it's a faster more efficient metagame that yes, has the same foundation as before, but yet those details make tremendous differences in results.

Even Marth's edgeguard looks flawed now. I see spacies getting back to the stage against m2k sometimes now. How is that possible? Is m2k just falling off? It never feels like I have an answer to every recovery the way he used to.

Spacies are just so crisp now that the openings for Marth have dwindled. Floaties are taking more and more advantage of the fact that Marth's close range game is abysmal. His fastest move is...dsmash? Laggy as ****, and still twice as slow as the typical jab (Fox/Falco/Sheik etc). Once any character gets in there its panic time for Marth. Get the **** out and reset is his only option really. And that's predictable. People talk about his range but really he ONLY benefits from that extended range, and not the full range of the sword because the inner part of that sword is massively CCable, IE not an option a lot of the time. Yes he's godly at a certain distance, but he's just as bad at other ones.

He can win for sure but you have to acknowledge that he has a lot of problems.

Gimmicky- don't understand the word so leaving this alone.

mixup reliant- if you want to win you have to be mixup reliant with everyone.

laggy- quit swinging your sword so much? Or at least change when you swing it. Marth has big moves, if you connect or at least pressure with them or with their existence then they're still incredibly threatening.

heavily punished- everyone is heavily punished. well most everyone but that's the majority of the upper tiers anyway.

really tough matchups- NAH DAWG. He's got....Sheik? I could see Falcon as another, but after that no way does that guy have tough matchups. Sheik is entirely doable at top level too(if I can beat M2K's sheik with marth in tournament then so can you).


Anyone can boast that they told us so if Marth starts ******....or any character for that matter. PBnJ quoting Lambchops about a "m2k-type peach" at genesis 1 is just proof that it happens with every character that does well.

It takes an amazing amount of work to be successful with any character. They aren't that far apart in difficulty or viability, the upper guys, and it comes down to player abilities. Isai ran stuff with Falcon for a good while because that guy was really creative and talented. Bum did DK stuff at MLGs. Does that mean Bum did more work than everyone since DK is worse? Not necessarily. It means he was talented enough as a player to show more of DK's potential and prove that some matchups in Melee aren't as bad as they seem.

Spacies were behind then just as Marth was behind then. If you want Marth to be relevant now though YOU(sort of to you but really a general you) have to make him relevant now. No one else is doing it now like they are for spacies, but the game can get sorted out just fine if someone doesn't get so concerned with matchups or their character's potential and just work on their personal skills and goals. Just because you haven't seen Marth destroying everything like he used to doesn't mean he suddenly lost the ability. He just lost the players who usually showed it. Believe in Marth imo.

M2K is an emo doofus(except for genesis 2) now that never practices his game. The fact that spacies don't make it back vs him all the time is a testament to how solid Marth's edgeguarding is and how solid m2k's edgeguarding ideas were/are. Also make your improvements to M2K's edgeguards if you see something not working for him every time....he's not the Marth god or anything.

Crisp spacies? Gotta trick em more. Use different moves and movements.

Floaties like being close? Well first of all don't let them get there you have a huge sword, but second it's entirely possible to retreat out of those scenarios. Grab and random stuff like Dsmash can help too for mixups. A good rule to usually follow though is if you don't like a certain situation then you need to work around avoiding it. You usually can as long as you don't get so focused on it that you make yourself predictable.

You have the ability to adjust your range like them. If you surprise someone then they won't just keep CC'ing or will miss punishes because they weren't expecting you to do something. You just have to get creative and play on Marth's strengths or your own. Saying he sucks at some ranges is like me whining that Falco sucks everywhere offstage. Yeah Falco dies offstage a lot but he's got some great tricks too, just as Marth has some bad ranges but he can also adjust them or use some to his advantage as a surprise or with a move/movement people don't expect.

He can win for sure but it just takes someone confident in Marth and their own abilities. Blaming the character is a really big problem I see people having and if everyone would just focus on their personal abilities and realize that others have succeeded with their own character well or done great feats with worse characters than it can really make a difference. I never even cared about Falco's matchups until people started asking me about them lol. Half the time I never even knew what to tell them because I just knew strategies Falco should use to counter theirs. It might help to just forget that there are such difficulties is all I'm suggesting.

I think marth is forced into either 2 styles, one is the defensive zoning character like how m2k plays. The other is a chaotic marth that focuses on aggression and stays unpredictable so its much harder to pin him down, like how tink plays. There can't really be an inbetween.

Well while I've kind of noticed that as well based on watching people play, I believed that Marth has more depth to him and it should be expected of a top Marth to switch his style up or at least change enough things so that he can remain hard to read/competitively viable/whatever.

Completely irrelevant bait mixup thing. Not what I'm talking about.



I feel like you see the game as way too black and white. Just because something is not guaranteed **** doesn't mean it's not an amazing option to have. Have you ever done anything positive ever with fox's jab? Yea, Marth would like to do that too. Just because it can be CC'd and therefore isn't broken etc doesn't mean it's not fantastic. It's a major defensive asset at close range and also offensively, it would do WONDERS for Marth as far as finding that tricky KO at high percent. I would at the very least like to have a jab that ***** when my opponent doesn't CC (which happens all the time).

You focus on the negatives too much dude. =(

Instead of being upset about Marth's lack of spacie jab, why not think of ways to set up more kills from multiple scenarios or strengthen your juggle/edgeguard game so that once you get an advantageous position at higher percent you (eventually) get a kill off of it anyway?

Black and White may have been a poor choice of words but it was kind of related to the counter thing as in like, even tho spacies can on paper get around counter edgeguard in practice it's still difficult for them to do and you should at least make them prove they can do it (at least specifically talking about teching or just sweetspotting underneath - if there are obvious angles they can do to avoid counter then yes I agree definitely not the right option).

But back to jabbing - a lot of characters get in on marth by shield approaching so it would give marth at least a mixup for pressuring that type of thing, as well as a defensive option in case they forced an unexpected misspacing with their approach.

And yea basically it would help him out approach wise big time because it would be a way to continue pressure or get some cheaper hits. Forward B or up tilt are much riskier ways to try to catch someone coming out of their shield, and if you don't catch them it's big trouble.

I mean, can we at least agree overall that Marth would really benefit from having sheik's jab instead of the one he has?

Lol I wish people ran at my Marth and shielded. I approach with grab a lot to stop that mess.

Condition in a new way so that those moves to catch someone coming out of their shield are better. Use different moves or different spacings to poke or attack their OOS game with. Get creative.

And stop thinking about his jab LOOOOOL Marth's jab is cool but yeah used in different ways.




Now I just want to play a ton of Marth XD

 

[Roneblaster]

Isai was never the best and neither was bum. The only reason Marth was the best was because spacies were too young and undeveloped.

Im not sure what youre arguing for other than "get better" PP. Which is what people are trying to do .

As far as the jab argument thats just people theory broing randomly.

 

[Dr Peepee]

It's not about who was the best it was about proving that a lot of characters can do well if you just take a solid angle on the game.

I'll leave the rest alone because I don't want to sidetrack this thread too far.

 

[Roneblaster]

I dont think anyone disagrees with you, axe is living proof of that.

That is i dont think anyone in here thinks Marth is bad, just limited. Which is what ud expect from a character who isnt top tier.

Marth is such a heavily execution based character. He has the ability to never let anyone in, but is it feasible to dominate on such a level that you dont let other top level players in?

 

[TheCrimsonBlur]

You know, I was going to respond to Niko's post but then I got lazy and decided not to. Best thing I did all day. PP broke things down exactly as I would have; he literally made every point I was intending to make.

I've never been so encouraged. Its reassuring to see that a top player has the same mentality that I have. Makes me think I am on the right track

More on topic: Rene, the last word I would use to describe Marth is "limited"

 

[Winston]

But he doesn't have to literally never let them in. His punishment game is very strong vs almost everybody.

And about being heavily execution based... doesn't that suggest that he is a top tier, rather than a lower tier who needs to outgimmick/outread their opponents to win? Interestingly, you're coming from the opposite angle that Niko is in claiming that Marth is limited.

Is fox not heavily execution based? I feel like there was a popular sentiment a few years back that fox was just too hard to play to truly be the best character. If it's still there now, it's declined greatly, since foxes have made big strides (as has been noted in the thread) and are finally starting to live up to the tier lists.

Why is it unreasonable to expect Marth players to meet the mechanical demands for their character? Again, not talking perfect-reaction-never-get-hit-theorycraft Marth. Just a Marth that competes on equal footing with other top tiers because he can match them in neutral and punishment game.

 

[Roneblaster]

Marth is limited, i didnt think that was a question. If he didnt have some kind of moderate limitation he would be undisputedly top tier.

Winston, i didnt comment on other characters. Of course fox is execution based. I completely lost my train of thought, but if i get it back ill edit this. ****in phone typing, i have to backspace twice a word to spell correctly.

 

[TheCrimsonBlur]

Marth is limited, i didnt think that was a question. If he didnt have some kind of moderate limitation he would be undisputedly top tier.

I don't think we are quite clear on the definition of "limited"

Marth has weaknesses. So does Fox. And Falco. And Sheik. But in my estimation, his strengths are so great that he has limitless potential.

I don't want to get into a tier list debate because its become rather silly in this game. Marth has been ranked anywhere between best and 8th best by most sources. Most of the top 8 float around that range. Sounds top tier to me.

 

[Roneblaster]

out of respect for tim duncan i wont say anything.

 

[TheCrimsonBlur]

lol when did thinking Marth is a really, really good char become taboo

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

I dont think fox or falco have been ranked 8th or even below 5th by anyone... sheik probably too, but less often #1. Puff sorta in that mix too but most people dont understand puff

 

[Brookman]

Im not sure what youre arguing for other than "get better" PP. Which is what people are trying to do .

I think, what PP is actually getting at is probably:

"Stop sucking at improving."

-but you won't see this cause you're dumb enough to block me.

 

[TheCrimsonBlur]

I dont think fox or falco have been ranked 8th or even below 5th by anyone... sheik probably too, but less often #1. Puff sorta in that mix too but most people dont understand puff

And yet Foxes have had comparable (arguably worse) national tournament results to ICs since the game's inception despite having had a much larger player base. Obviously whatever disadvantages people claim ICs have compared to Fox haven't affected player performance.

I don't think Marth players should care whether he is top 4 or next 4 (see: low tier mentality). Either way hes really good and whatever distinctions are made for his ranking on the tier list won't affect tournament results much. He has all the tools.

We can focus on how bad his jab is at close range, and fantasize on how awesome it would be if he had Peach's dsmash, a shine, and a usmash that kills at 80, while completely neglecting the fact that he has the best grab in the game. We can nitpick all of his weaknesses and dwell on his faults, while ignoring his strengths. Meanwhile a kid in Arizona will be sitting in his room with his lights off, devising strategies to make a puny little rat win by believing in its intrinsic strengths and working to maximize them.