Can Marth become top tier again?

[Brookman]

@Brookman Abate would scrape you for free.

Perhaps we will find out, someday.

in the mean time,

Yo, ILMNikoBrookman, I'm sorry to be really blunt like this but I have no choice. YOu'RE ****ING BAD.

 

[Dart!]

i really liked this thread when Tai and Taj were making great posts.
then i saw 2007-2009 style matchup discussion from druggedfox
then i saw walls of text from niko and spam arrows and only read niko's.

and now im waiting for good posts again
can more people that actually play marth post thoughts? im interested.

i've lost interest in posting with all these ****ing trolls about.

 

[Archangel]

So who here is planning on going to ROM4/Apex2? More specifically Who wants to play my Luigi with their Marth at one of these? Who wants to play a better luigi than me and get rolled on even worse? Who wants it? lol

truth be told with all the talking thats happened the past few days I wanna see some ppl actually play now....besides....why haven't you all moved to the pretty thread I made?

 

[Tee ay eye]

i'll post again in this thread in about 2 weeks after i play taj's luigi again and re-evaluate what i think about the whole thing

 

[Divinokage]

i'll post again in this thread in about 2 weeks after i play taj's luigi again and re-evaluate what i think about the whole thing

That's not exactly the best way to approach a matchup because one he knows your style and you know his style most likely.
2. He's not a Luigi main which causes irregularities in decision making. It could be good or it could be really bad.
3. It's always better to fight multiple Luigis.
4. Your style might not be the best vs Luigis.
5. He might be better than you.

So, it's not exactly right to evaluate a matchup with only one player, you have to fight a lot of players to make an accurate statement with a matchup.

 

[Tee ay eye]

yeah that's definitely true

but i'd still like to look at and think about various facets of the matchup
in light of some small new-found tidbits of knowledge

 

[Divinokage]

Ya alright.. well I mean the game is still limited so there's obviously things that will work and some obvious things that won't.. etc.

 

[crush]

There's no point in playing marth vs weegee just bring out your pocket falco

 

[Tee ay eye]

my pocket falco **** *****

i feel dirty CPing anyone but marth in any situation, though, so i don't do it

 

[crush]

Pocket sheik

 

[Archangel]

Pocket sheik

Sheik is an Iffy CP imo. You gotta get off to a good start otherwise it might not work out to well for you. Once You get hit or grabbed Luigi comboes the **** out of Shiek...unless you play gay as **** it's not much of a counter. Falco on YS is a good choice though. Shine gimp off the top = massive ****.

 

[OverLord]

I'll try to be at RoM4.

I'll play every Luigi in the venue.

 

[Wenbobular]

Luigi really doesn't combo Sheik that well if they know how to DI ... she's like a fastfaller that you can't do cheap combos that work on fastfallers, but not floaty enough to get chained like a floaty ...

Frankly the Falco matchup is pretty cheap, just always hold down and never run away, just stay in his .5 wavedash zone and shoot him with lasers, every so often do some unstoppable AC Bairs, what's he gonna do <_<

 

[ILM]

Yo, ILM, I'm sorry to be really blunt like this but I have no choice. YOu'RE ****ING BAD.

lol I know this.

 

[Dart!]

now we aren't even talking about marth. mods where you at? let's get this **** back on topic please. What can marth do realistically to perform better in tournament?

 

[Brookman]

Need to learn to down tilt better.

The thing is, all the best players have chosen to move away from marth. With the exception of m2k, who doesn't give a **** anymore. The common high level players need to just stop ****ing masturbating and sword better. Down tilt your way into grab spacing and set up mix ups that way. cover the obvious desperate over-head jumps with up air/up tilt/fair. Just be really careful not to aerial yourself into a bad position.

Ya, I said it, marth's aerials suck. SO STOP JUMPING. If you're not able to dash back and pivot grab at all times then you're doing something wrong. Until you read that their going to over-shoot in an attempt to read your dash back . . . .but these are all miniscule things that happen in fractions of a second.

I mean, there has to be a tribunal.

-Who here is actually playing marth in tournaments??
-Who here is taking marth to regional/national level tournaments??
-What are the main challenges you are facing??
-As a character, what are marth's strongest points and what are his weakest points??
-As a player, what are your strengths and weaknesses as a player??
-Which characters do you have trouble with and who is piloting them??

 

[Niko45]

fake .

 

[Brookman]

The Fakest**

 

[Max?]

This thread has really gone in a direction im not comfortable with anymore

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

I think it would be smart to scrap everything you know about marth and start fresh. Marth's ground game is superior to his air game, but his air game is good in the short term. I think marth's should generally stay away from dash dancing except when trying to ultra turtle (against fox since you can't catch him) and instead space with slow movements keeping situational burst defense options available and in mind. Think samus but with better everything. Marth's air game is good when being air camped, but it is very exploitable too, so its a soft commit at least.

 

[Strong Badam]

marth in comparison to most other characters: he has very few moves that have lingering hitboxes, meaning he can be punished way easier. since he has more range, it is kinda balanced out, but this is something some marth players don't always realize. spacing is even more crucial when you only have about a 3 frame window of attack every time you attack rather than 28 or some **** on Fox's nair.

 

[onionchowder]

EDIT: Sort of a necro-post. Also, not terribly relevant to Melee, 'cause I don't think the game is nearly 'solved' enough for any of this to matter. Also mostly off-topic. Oh well.

I've said this before, but its been a while so maybe people forgot. As a metagame advances indefinitely, all match-ups will progress towards even (unless it is 100-0, meaning 1 option completely shuts down the character without any form of counter)

I think my statement holds its own, but if you want to read more heres an article by sirlin on mixed strategies: http://www.sirlin.net/articles/rock-paper-scissors-in-strategy-games.html

I've read the Sirlin's article. It's an interesting concept, and it is certainly true for any sort of symmetric game. But I don't think it is true for a asymmetric (AKA different characters) game.

For example, let's say you're playing RPS, player X gets 4 points for every win, and player Y gets 1 point for every win, first player to 100 points wins. The matchup ratio is still 80:20 regardless of metagame evolution.

For a fighting game oriented example, let's say you have two characters, who move exactly the same, hitboxes behave exactly the same, etc., except character X kills his opponent with one hit, and character Y kills his opponent with 3 hits (assume that after landing a hit, the situation resets). The X vs. Y matchup will be 75:25.

EDIT: Actually, I'm not 100% on those matchup numbers. I'm sure you could calculate the actual chance of player X beating player Y (in either scenario). Regardless, my point is that the matchup is not even.


tl;dr, matchups don't evolve towards 50:50 equilibrium if the characters are inherently different.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

If the characters in inherently scaled like that (exactly the same except 1 character does less damage), then maybe you can define it that way. But in a game of unequal payouts a mixed strategy will emerge for both sides and the match-up will gravitate towards even. If one move or strategy has a large payoff, but has a counter, that counter will be valued higher even if the only thing it does is counter that one strategy and it loses if they decide to do anything else.

 

[Deleted member]

too simple for a complicated game like melee

 

[Dart!]

getting really tired of irrelevant people posting in this topic.
mods close please.

 

[Brookman]

getting really tired of irrelevant people posting in this topic. being on a public forum. mods close please.

Now, back to discussion.

 

[Dart!]

Well.. that's what you get for barely making it out.. I also barely made it out.. my pool had 5 foxes lol. But I had Lucky first round which he placed 1st in R3 pools.

Edit: So what's the arguments now? That Luigi should not ever win vs Marth in tournament or something? That's BS lol.

I GOT FIRST SEED FIRST AND SECOND POOLS THEN GOT DR PEEPEE PLUS TOPE PLUS FLY AMANITA
my pool was ****ing bogus, i worked hard to get one "top" player replaced by me in my 3rd round and still had him in. it was bull****.

 

[TheCrimsonBlur]

getting really tired of irrelevant people posting in this topic.
mods close please.

lol this is why I rarely post on Marth boards now. I used to be all about that matchup analysis and video critique.

But then I realized that no one will read my posts until I prove myself. Besides, its hella awkward lecturing to people way better than me lol

 

[Brookman]

I GOT FIRST SEED FIRST AND SECOND POOLS THEN GOT DR PEEPEE PLUS TOPE PLUS FLY AMANITA
my pool was ****ing bogus, i worked hard to get one "top" player replaced by me in my 3rd round and still had him in. it was bull****.

No need to be so mad. You're at one of the most competitive events of the last year and you're in the deepest round of pools . . . no point in complaining. you made it out?? great job!

back to discusison.

 

[Dart!]

lol this is why I rarely post on Marth boards now. I used to be all about that matchup analysis and video critique.

But then I realized that no one will read my posts until I prove myself. Besides, its hella awkward lecturing to people way better than me lol

i wasn't talking about you.

 

[TheCrimsonBlur]

i wasn't talking about you.

I know, but I was just talking in general.

 

[Brookman]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KCcrfK1h334

See how you lose all control of the match when you jump around desperately?

 

[Taj278]

Seriously. PP got knocked into second place in round 2 pools by no one special. Tope and Cyrain didn't even make it out of round 3 pools. Round 3 is supposed to look ugly, people that were expected to get first got second in round 2. Light beating Lucien, me beating PP, Wobbles beating M2K, Lovage beating Hbox, are all things that should make round 3 look so scary, and why some pools will always look scarier than others, especially considering that they can't make you play someone you played in a previous pool.

Dart, you did really well considering your circumstances and I believe it was your first international tourney? You made it into bracket, and you got a tough bracket. I got a lucky bracket, it happens mang. Until you become an S class player where every bracket YOU'RE in is unlucky for THEM, you just gotta go to work. I too only had two people to play with for the longest time, and I made a Wobbles out of one of em.

Before I address the topic... Crimson Blur has an awesome perspective I respect a lot. Regardless of what your skill-level is, you articulate your points well and your analyses that I've read so far are always really good.

I don't necessarily agree with everyone here, but once again the point is to promote discussion in general. There will always be good and bad discussion, but as long as the pertinent information is being supported and discussed, all discussion should be encouraged.

I know it's hard guys, but non-Marth mains have their own perspectives on the game and their own valued opinions. We might even disagree, we'll even try to explain why, if an argument breaks out, oh well. It's not HURTING anyone, it might be annoying to you that you can't persuade the other person, but just say what you have to say. When you realize that the argument isn't going anywhere, agree to disagree and try to move on to another point/topic.

I don't think little sidebars about Luigi vs Marth are bad, the whole point of that conversation was at least in the context that, in the current metagame, many of Marth's historically **** match-ups are no longer free, and we attempted to explain why.

I'm not nearly as intelligent as you guys, but I am REALLY trying my best to be open-minded and recognize my own biases. I'd like to encourage you all to do the same.

As far as Marth returning to the 07/08 glory days... I think it's still possible. Marth has a lot of holes in his gameplay, but I think if someone more flexible learns to hit as hard as M2K, but has a deeper level of thoughts and reactions, we can probably have the monster that the non-Marth mains are talking about. Being able to attack frame perfectly, has the top 8 match-ups down to a formula, has the athleticism to react to the unorthodox, AND has a bit of craziness in themselves. We'd basically be asking for a spectrum of Mango between Hbox to play Marth.

I know all of you are working on it. I am also trying to iron-out my gameplay. I tried revisiting my foundation and starting from scratch, but I'm not smart enough to do that, lol. Since this Genesis 2, I've at least found what direction I need to move in order to improve and hopefully you'll at least see some changes to my survival skills, and combos.

Usually when I say stuff like that, the opposite ends up happening though, lol. I end up just getting nastier and meaner edgeuards, my techchasing gets more godlike, and I just get better against Falco.

 

[Brookman]

I think the real question is, whether someone can solo-marth through a bracket.

 

[Taj278]

With the current ruleset... I think so. When we had to ban RC/Brinstar/DK64 and were forced to go to one of those three anyway... nah.

With stage striking, only one really bad CP, and the majority of us practicing on all neutrals... Marth doesn't have so many bad match-ups that he can't still win on every neutral.

 

[Archangel]

I think the real question is, whether someone can solo-marth through a bracket.

I gave it a try in pools at Zenith I think it's possible I just need to learn how to beat other Marths.

 

[Brookman]

Irony . down tilt/ftilt/dash attack. watch for fsmash openings (in both your play and his) nair/fair can be ok but CC is a *****.

f throw > f throw > up throw > up tilt at 0% is a combo.

 

[ILM]

With the current ruleset... I think so. When we had to ban RC/Brinstar/DK64 and were forced to go to one of those three anyway... nah.

With stage striking, only one really bad CP, and the majority of us practicing on all neutrals... Marth doesn't have so many bad match-ups that he can't still win on every neutral.

What stage is it that you think is a bad counterpick? Personally I think all of them are pretty good for Marth, depending on matchup.

The only two problem stages I can think of are only really situationally bad, PS and Dreamland. PS is really only bad vs Fox imo, due to the really low ceiling. Otherwise, the center allows chaingrabs to happen against Falco, and without a top platform juggling is easy. The two outer platforms are great to setup for tippers as well. The fire and rock transformations are tiny, giving Marth, with his long reach, a pretty big edge. The only downside is the other two transformations, really.

As far as Dreamland, I think it is usable, not really bad. I feel like it is the best against Falco, as the large stage size almost works against Falco, allowing Marths more space to deal with lasers, either by powershielding them or merely jumping around them. Against other characters, Marth can still get uptilts through platforms, double jump nairs on the top platform, and of course edgeguarding still happens. Plus, Marth can recover really well, so the distance of the blastzones is advantageous. So, while it may not be an OPTIMAL stage, I don't think it is necessarily bad.

 

[Niko45]

I assume Taj is basing it off the G2 rules and then assuming he means DK64 is the stand out bad Marth stage. I also totally agree, as the stagelist shrinks Marth is getting better and better.

 

[Dart!]

Seriously. PP got knocked into second place in round 2 pools by no one special. Tope and Cyrain didn't even make it out of round 3 pools. Round 3 is supposed to look ugly, people that were expected to get first got second in round 2. Light beating Lucien, me beating PP, Wobbles beating M2K, Lovage beating Hbox, are all things that should make round 3 look so scary, and why some pools will always look scarier than others, especially considering that they can't make you play someone you played in a previous pool.

Dart, you did really well considering your circumstances and I believe it was your first international tourney? You made it into bracket, and you got a tough bracket. I got a lucky bracket, it happens mang. Until you become an S class player where every bracket YOU'RE in is unlucky for THEM, you just gotta go to work. I too only had two people to play with for the longest time, and I made a Wobbles out of one of em.

Before I address the topic... Crimson Blur has an awesome perspective I respect a lot. Regardless of what your skill-level is, you articulate your points well and your analyses that I've read so far are always really good.

I don't necessarily agree with everyone here, but once again the point is to promote discussion in general. There will always be good and bad discussion, but as long as the pertinent information is being supported and discussed, all discussion should be encouraged.

I know it's hard guys, but non-Marth mains have their own perspectives on the game and their own valued opinions. We might even disagree, we'll even try to explain why, if an argument breaks out, oh well. It's not HURTING anyone, it might be annoying to you that you can't persuade the other person, but just say what you have to say. When you realize that the argument isn't going anywhere, agree to disagree and try to move on to another point/topic.

I don't think little sidebars about Luigi vs Marth are bad, the whole point of that conversation was at least in the context that, in the current metagame, many of Marth's historically **** match-ups are no longer free, and we attempted to explain why.

I'm not nearly as intelligent as you guys, but I am REALLY trying my best to be open-minded and recognize my own biases. I'd like to encourage you all to do the same.

As far as Marth returning to the 07/08 glory days... I think it's still possible. Marth has a lot of holes in his gameplay, but I think if someone more flexible learns to hit as hard as M2K, but has a deeper level of thoughts and reactions, we can probably have the monster that the non-Marth mains are talking about. Being able to attack frame perfectly, has the top 8 match-ups down to a formula, has the athleticism to react to the unorthodox, AND has a bit of craziness in themselves. We'd basically be asking for a spectrum of Mango between Hbox to play Marth.

I know all of you are working on it. I am also trying to iron-out my gameplay. I tried revisiting my foundation and starting from scratch, but I'm not smart enough to do that, lol. Since this Genesis 2, I've at least found what direction I need to move in order to improve and hopefully you'll at least see some changes to my survival skills, and combos.

Usually when I say stuff like that, the opposite ends up happening though, lol. I end up just getting nastier and meaner edgeuards, my techchasing gets more godlike, and I just get better against Falco.

yeah i understand where you're coming from tony...i'm just upset at losing to falcos that i shouldn't have had trouble with. Besides PP of course that kids ****.

ewww that kou set got recorded i'm not happy about that.