Can Marth become top tier again?

[Roneblaster]

i agree with one aspect of how druggedfox looks at the game and MU's but based on what hes said so far i feel like he is completely ignoring the fact that low tiers can improve too. and honestly low tiers probably have MORE room for improvement.

what i do like is how he breaks the game down.

like who wins aerial game, neutral, edgeguarding, etc etc. that is a very legitmate way to look at the game, BUT THAT DOESNT DETERMINE the outcome. for a couple reasons:

1. no1 knows everything.
2. The on paper doesnt take into account human execution. so even if you did know everything, the outcome wouldnt be how you except, necessarily.

 

[Druggedfox]

Yo dfox, I think you have a really archaic definitions of "matchups" and "tier lists." You simply add up certain aspects of the game (offstage game, neutral, etc.) and then try to make a conclusion out of it. But there is more to winning in this game than a sum of parts. Your method leads to a lot of vagaries that can lead to ultimately illogical solutions. If you implemented your methods without bias (as in, you didn't have a set number for a matchup before breaking it down into parts), you'd realize how flawed it is. You'd study a matchup for each category and each category only and then try to quantify who has the advantage or disadvantage. This would be rather tough, and you'd quickly find that you need to recategorize or that certain aspects blur the boundaries between categories, but ultimately lets say you find a solution to every category for a particular matchup. At the end you will have a bunch of results but you will still be just as far away from truly understanding what the ultimate sum of the parts are, because you will find it hard to weigh each category for importance. If character X wins spacing and edgeguarding but character Y wins combos and punishment, then who wins overall? Its impossible and silly to say; matchup analysis requires a more holistic approach that focuses on the strategies that players implement, and not on a raw number crunch.

Matchups are a function of the metagame. They change because strategies change. If the current crop of Fox players cannot deal with the strategies that the current crop of Pikachu players are using, then Pikachu is winning the matchup right now. You can't just say that Fox players should do this or should do that and write off the strategies that the Pikachus are implementing.

Note that thinking like this actually removes player skill from the equation. Its not about tournament results, but rather a dissection of strategy. Whether a Fox player suicides 4 times a match and loses to a Pikachu is not relevant to the discussion. What is relevant is if Fox players have trouble dealing with overshot nair to instant uair or uair out of shield from Pikachu, and have yet to find proper spacing tools to beat it. If no Fox player can beat the overall set of strategies put forth by Pikachus, then, at least for the moment, the matchup is in Pikachu's favor.

Once again, respectfully disagree. You failed to look at the context in which I used that matchup analysis; I agree that you have to weight each category (which can also be done) but I think that if a character clearly wins every aspect, then yes, it is truly that simple to say they win the matchup. I don't think you realize how large an aspect the category "neutral game" covers. A method can work for simple cases that might not work for more complex ones; I might not be able to use this method for marth vs fox, but I can most certainly use it for marth vs luigi. So I beg to differ, its not illogical.

That said, the pikachu part? No, it is not that fox players have issues dealing with overshot nairs. It's that axe is outplaying them. An overshot nair isn't difficult to deal with, just put a hitbox in the way; oh, what if axe dashdances and baits it then grabs you? Bam, you've been outplayed. It really is that simple, and I'm not sure why people try to claim the matchup has changed. Axe is hardly doing "new" pikachu things; for the most part, anything he's done the majority of old school players have seen before at some point, axe is just a bit faster and flashier. Overshot nair and uairing OoS are the oldest pikachu strategies in the book, axe isn't new. Once again, you're not factoring in familiarity of the matchup; while axe beat jman at genesis, you know who was still beating axe? Forward. Not with falco, but with fox. Familiarity with the matchup. Your argument isn't fundamentally different than taking a marth who has played plenty of foxes, and matching him up against a fox player who's never fought a decent marth in his life. Who do you think will win? Even if the fox player is amazing, with next to no matchup experience it is highly unlikely that the fox player will even have a chance. Scale it down to pikachu, and it becomes roughly even. The fact that fox players go roughly even with axe DESPITE axe outplaying them AND knowing the matchup better should suggest to you that fox vs. pikachu is indeed in fox's favor.

As a side note, I believe lovage actually has a positive record against axe, not entirely sure on that. You're also not comparing skill tiers; if we were to put axe in the skill tier that places top 5 at a national, and then pit him against lucky who do you think will win purely based on skill level? Even jman doesn't really get 4th and 5th at nationals. Honestly, I don't really see your point. If the fox is getting outplayed it doesn't mean pikachu wins the matchup, it means axe is ****ing good.

 

[Niko45]

I don't understand how Marth "wins the punishment game" in almost all instances because Marth gets punished VERY hard pretty much universally like I said earlier.

He doesn't punish that hard. You can DI out of so much of his stuff. He's incredibly mixup dependent. He's not designed to utterly dominate other characters unless they are really that pitifully bad and incapable of winning, which Luigi is not.

 

[Divinokage]

Well ya theoretically, let's say Marth beats Luigi's all aerials straight up.. fine yes it does because Marth has more range. But you have to look into HOW the aerials are going to happen in a match, it's impossible to determine that. There's always ways to execute things with just a little positional shift, you can get in there and give some punishment.

Edit: Someone is going to HAVE to do something, that's baiting son. =P

 

[Max?]

Doc's da bess becuz i caan hit peepul with fsmash and they die

 

[Druggedfox]

You don't see how marth outpunishes luigi? Please explain to me what secret strategy luigi has to get back to the ground once marth has him in the air.

He has roughly three options:
1) Airdodge down and hope the marth player gets thrown off because he hasn't seen an airdodge before.
2) Down-b because it changes luigi's fall speed and hope it messes up the marth players timing.
3) Lose.

Yes, marth gets punished hard as ****, and his recovery is ***, I'm very aware. Yes, the marth player could make a mistake, or be thrown off a bit. No, the individual player's skill does not affect the matchup in any way, shape, or form. He still outpunishes luigi because luigi literally does not have the means to get down once hes in the air, while luigi has mediocre comboing ability assuming your opponent actually knows the trajectory of luigi's moves. There's no mixup, no DI involved. If Luigi DIs left on an upair, you move left and follow him. Unless you have a way to change luigi's aerial mobility to that of jigglypuff, he really does not have a way to get back to the ground. It literally doesn't exist, I'm sorry.

@Kage

No one is arguing that it is impossible for luigi to hit marth. If you look back, both Taj and Spam_Arrows claimed something that suggested luigi vs marth could potentially be 55-45. 55-45 is very very close and I'm arguing that there's no way in hell thats the case. No one's stupid here, no one thinks marth is going to JV 5 every character in the game... he's simply far better than luigi, and wins the matchup. I don't really see how luigi vs marth can even possibly be 55-45. I know its impossible to determine what happens a match, thats where the player vs player part of the game comes in. If you bait me, you *outplayed* me. Somehow everyone here misinterprets the phrase "winning a matchup" to "no matter how well you play you won't touch me". I'm speaking purely from a matchup perspective.

 

[Niko45]

You don't see how marth outpunishes luigi? Please explain to me what secret strategy luigi has to get back to the ground once marth has him in the air.

He has roughly three options:
1) Airdodge down and hope the marth player gets thrown off because he hasn't seen an airdodge before.
2) Down-b because it changes luigi's fall speed and hope it messes up the marth players timing.
3) Lose.

Yes, marth gets punished hard as ****, and his recovery is ***, I'm very aware. He still outpunishes luigi because luigi literally does not have the means to get down once hes in the air. There's no mixup, no DI involved. If Luigi DIs left on an upair, you move left and follow him. Unless you have a way to change luigi's aerial mobility to that of jigglypuff, he really does not have a way to get back to the ground. It literally doesn't exist, I'm sorry.

I understand that you don't understand. You already listed 2 options he has. How does anyone get back down against Marth? They just do. Meanwhile, even if Marth does succeed in keeping Luigi above him...infinitely? How are you going to kill him? Reliably? Every time?

How easy is it for Marth to get Luigi into the air? You basically only get him there through grabbing him. Your opponent can always guard against certain openings and force you to beat them in different ways.

 

[Max?]

Why are we still caught up on Luigi vs. Marth?

Once Marth has you in the air, you are at a definite disadvantage but you can still react to stuff Marth does because you KNOW where he's going to place his attack to punish you further. You also forgot to mention the following things you can do on the way down:

1.) Fast Fall to get to the ground faster
2.) Attack on the way down
3.) Double Jump
4.) Aim for a platform
5.) Some combination of all the things I listed above.

Aka, unless you are on FD, you don't have a DJ, and you do the same thing EVERY SINGLE TIME you are coming down, you shouldn't get mercilessly *****. Will you take some damage? Probably. Is Marth going to keep you above him til death % and then KO you? Idk about all that.

 

[Niko45]

It's not like up throwing floaties being good is news.

 

[Brookman]

All niko does is up throw.

 

[Max?]

All niko does is up throw.

You have no ****ing idea. Every Marth I've played besides him has been a joke.

 

[Niko45]

I am pro at up throwing floaties. Max is pro at getting back down to the ground as a floaty vs Marth.

End Thread.

 

[Max?]

I am pro at up throwing floaties. Max is pro at getting back down to the ground as a floaty vs Marth.

End Thread.

loll such truth.

 

[Brookman]

Niko was hilarious when he was playing cort tho. Were you still there for that max?

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

nvm way late....

 

[Max?]

Niko was hilarious when he was playing cort tho. Were you still there for that max?

If he was I don't remember it because I was black out drunk most of that night. The game where you did nothing but rest will live on in infamy tho.

 

[Divinokage]

Goddamn it, that means I suck too. =(

Edit: Well anyways... Marth beats Luigi for sure, it's no way in Luigi advantage... I can't see that lol.

 

[Roneblaster]

i love dart but he got 25th. he didnt win a set in bracket did he?

atleast he told me he didnt.

t17th = won a set

t25th = didnt win a set.

 

[Max?]

Man, I should be studying right now. Smashboards + The "We is Tight Tanight" thread on FB have destroyed my ability to do work.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

he played hbox then lost to some falco in losers

 

[Roneblaster]

25: Bizzaro Flame
25: Shoyo
25: Dart
25: DoH
25: PewPewU
25: HomeMadeWaffles
25: Lucky
25: HugS

 

[Max?]

@ kage, I don't think anyone is saying Marth loses to Luigi.

In fact, I don't think we're trying to argue about a specific matchup, more the misconceptions that people have about how easy/broken it is to play marth and how the marth mains now are just doing it wrong.

It's hilarious because it's people that don't play Marth that are coming in here talking about how wrong everyone else is lol.

 

[Niko45]

Goddamn it, that means I suck too. =(

Edit: Well anyways... Marth beats Luigi for sure, it's no way in Luigi advantage... I can't see that lol.

Totally agree. I don't think anyone would argue that. Some people just can't fathom that it's a competitive matchup, though. Trying to explain but failing.

 

[Dart!]

My 3rd round pool was kind of stupid imo and i would have gladly taken anyone else besides hbox first round :/

 

[Niko45]

And for the record, I was completely **** faced when I was playing Cort lol.

 

[Roneblaster]

you'll beat hit next time josh

 

[Divinokage]

My 3rd round pool was kind of stupid imo and i would have gladly taken anyone else besides hbox first round :/

Well.. that's what you get for barely making it out.. I also barely made it out.. my pool had 5 foxes lol. But I had Lucky first round which he placed 1st in R3 pools.

Edit: So what's the arguments now? That Luigi should not ever win vs Marth in tournament or something? That's BS lol.

 

[Archangel]

Stuff

LOL WTF OutMatchups them????

Anyway i'm already reading 1 novel atm But from what I can see....you believe 100% anything written down in the smash-bible here on smashboards so there really is no point. Why don't I post a whole page of "logical arguments"? I've already done that and it falls on deaf ears besides. What will happen is.....nothing. Just like most other arguments on this site. What happens is Side A makes a case and then Side B makes a case and neither of them change there mind. and outsiders join in and agree/disagree with A or B until someone finds a happy medium. I'm not interested in that in the slightest.

The Problem here is you (as logical as you are) lack basic problem solving skills. You are told the answer and you fill in the Problem instead(problem being your "logical arguments"). How you came to the conclusion that I was impressed by a low tier and thus went on my current path is beyond me. I've stated on more than 1 occasion that I don't think in terms of tiers. I wasn't in the least shocked when Shroomed beat Axe because I've seen that MU before and it's not that difficult for Pika. MU's make up a character potential. Alot of people assume if you can juggle or chain grab fox/falco then that character is good. Your confusing me with one of those people. There are character that are capable of winning and then there are friendlies character that you should not expect to win with.

Now before you point and say "wait a minute spam that goes against your argument" let me explain. A player no matter how good they are even if they are better than Armada/M2K/Mango/PP combined. That person will not win with Yoshi or Mr.GayManWatch. Their Cons outweigh their Pros. Could that same person win with Mario, Luigi, Link, DK? Yeah they could possibly win. Mario, DK, Luigi, Link. They all have flaws that stick out more than those placed above them. However their Pros outweigh their cons. This is the only way I look at the game. Viable tier and pointless tier.

I don't look at someone like Mario as if they don't belong on stage with someone like Falco. Pikachu like he doesn't belong on stage with Fox. As long as you have that point of view you won't see the truth until it's years to late.

Long story short we are different. We are on different wavelengths. Some people look at an object and see what is. Others see what was. Some see what will be. Some see black, some see white, some see gray, some see color...etc.

I'm not saying im above you, better, or smarter I just see no reason to be the guy that waits for everything to happen and then agree once it's happened. I mean real talk....how many people picked Taj for top5-10? Hell how many people even gave him a second thought? Now 'OH TAJ IS THE GREATEST! HE'S SO GOOD VS SPACIES!" And he is...but why the **** didn't you say that 1 month ago? what the **** is up with this fake phony ****?

anyways I've said to much. peace <3

 

[Divinokage]

Just like you said spam, people see what they want to see and it's ****ing annoying now. It's the main reason I'm sad and pissed off at the community.. and the same reason why I know others are too. But it's our job to keep playing and proving people wrong because most humans won't believe something until they see it.

 

[Druggedfox]

I understand that you don't understand. You already listed 2 options he has. How does anyone get back down against Marth? They just do. Meanwhile, even if Marth does succeed in keeping Luigi above him...infinitely? How are you going to kill him? Reliably? Every time?

How easy is it for Marth to get Luigi into the air? You basically only get him there through grabbing him. Your opponent can always guard against certain openings and force you to beat them in different ways.

What a fabulous argument: "they just do". I can't believe I didn't think of that!

How does anyone get back down against marth? Let's see:

Fox and falco actually don't get back down against marth, I'm citing m2k on that one. M2k can pretty much 0-death every single fox/falco on the planet when he doesn't mess up. Even then, they have better options than luigi: they have more aerial mobility, shines, falco has more priority below him, and because they land on platforms so quickly after being upthrown they can do slide off/tech fastfall shenanigans.

Sheik? She shouldn't unless she lands on a platform that marth can't reach (battlefield top platform). Even then her airdodge fastfall is actually far more legitimate than luigi's, becuase she acutally has falling speed.

Peach? She has a float, and once again, more aerial mobility than luigi.

How do you kill luigi? Eventually get him offstage, at which point he should die. It doesn't matter if you kill the opponent at 200% if they didn't get to move for the last 100%. How do you get him in the air? Grab him; even if they're looking out for that, its bound to happen... multiple times. Watch m2k vs anyone, he gets grabs despite them *knowing* that thats the one thing they don't want to happen. Your moves have lag? They can be dash dance grabbed. It doesn't help that most of luigi's moveset can be CC grabbed fairly easily.

I seriously wouldn't mind a disagreement so much if you guys would actually present a real arugment. Your arguments involve marth players making mistakes, and luigi's miraculously pulling off what I'm going to call the "they just do" from now on. How'd luigi get down? He did the "they just do" it was tight man, no one even knew what happened. I really appreciate you guys just blindly telling us our opinions don't matter cuz we don't main marth, then having lackluster arguments.

Also, max: the other options you listed for getting down I didn't count because I take them for granted. I would hope that if a luigi attacks on the way down, I can put a sword between myself and him. If he double jumps? I put a sword between the two of us and after it whiffs because he jumped, he has no where to go because of ****ty aerial mobility. Aim for a platform? Yeah then you're still above marth, and you haven't succeeded. The only way that really gets you out of pressure is either on BF or DL's top platform. Otherwise landing on a platform just gets you uaired and uptilted more; even if you get down, you're in an awful position that's likely to be reset.

I seriously can't comprehend how you guys try to make legitimate arguments out of "marth messes up" and "you don't main marth". You know what? M2K doesn't main marth either, I bet you don't tell him that. Just because someone doesn't main a character doesn't mean they're not knowledgable, and you are all simply limiting yourself by using such statements rather than valid arugments.

 

[Niko45]

I'm just lazy. Max's post about getting down pretty much covered it. Basically you might take a lot of damage but actually doing it forever and killing off it is done but nowhere near guaranteed or happens every time. He was saying use combinations of DJ and waveland so like DJ and waveland to plat, etc. Fastfall and attack, etc. Plus, there are percentages where Luigi can come out of hitstun and nair Marth before he's even out of lag from up airing. There's plenty of nuances man. I'm not lying to you. Basically Max is saying that if you are a Luigi player and you are dying every time a Marth up throws you you are a terrible player. I think you are underestimating Luigi's options and what Luigi is generally capable of.

Anyway like Mow says, we're all stupid and ******** and suck, so I don't understand why you expect more from us argument-wise.

How does Marth cover air dodge, down B, fastfall aerial while still guarding against simply wavelanding to top platform?

The answer is you don't, but you still have another (lower percentage) shot of hitting/cornering Luigi again since he's not ALL the way down to the ground yet. But now he has wavedashing and shielding and stuff that he didn't before so it's going to be even harder to predict where he's going/cover options.

An overlooked thing about Luigi is the fact that since he comes out of hitstun so fast, you have to space very well against him even when hitting him with aerials. This limits just how hard Marth can punish him since tipper aerials will (very quickly) start pushing him out of combo range and you will need to do this "get down vs keep him up" mixup MANY more times to actually successfully kill him as you continuously one-hit him and then try to read him again and hit him again over and over. If you succeed 5 times in a row you just built 60% or so but if you miss once and get hit you are probably going to give back that 60% really fast through nair combos and his own mixups off of stage control. And it's not fair to blame the player for failing in these situations since he's only utilizing an advantage, not a completely inescapable situation. Marth can not automatically cover everything at once therefore a read is necessary based on the way it appears the floaty is trying to get back to the ground which opens the door for a misread or a good "counter-read" on the floaties part that allows the escape to happen.

 

[TheCrimsonBlur]

Once again, respectfully disagree. You failed to look at the context in which I used that matchup analysis; I agree that you have to weight each category (which can also be done) but I think that if a character clearly wins every aspect, then yes, it is truly that simple to say they win the matchup. I don't think you realize how large an aspect the category "neutral game" covers. A method can work for simple cases that might not work for more complex ones; I might not be able to use this method for marth vs fox, but I can most certainly use it for marth vs luigi. So I beg to differ, its not illogical.

How can you weigh each category? I really don't think thats possible to do fairly. And how can you be sure you have every category covered? What if there are situations your category doesn't cover? Are they simply deemed as too rare to matter? Why?

And neutral game is the convenient catch-all, though it shouldn't be. The large portion of a game's outcome is determined in non-neutral situations. And I am not talking about combos or edgeguarding. I am talking about when a person is above you as Marth and you are trying to trap them into an uair string. Or when a person is on top platform and can't find a way down. Or when somebody is on the ledge evaluating their options onstage. And so on. Most of these are tough to cover, and generally absent from analysis because they are hard to categorize.

That said, the pikachu part? No, it is not that fox players have issues dealing with overshot nairs. It's that axe is outplaying them. An overshot nair isn't difficult to deal with, just put a hitbox in the way; oh, what if axe dashdances and baits it then grabs you? Bam, you've been outplayed. It really is that simple, and I'm not sure why people try to claim the matchup has changed. Axe is hardly doing "new" pikachu things; for the most part, anything he's done the majority of old school players have seen before at some point, axe is just a bit faster and flashier. Overshot nair and uairing OoS are the oldest pikachu strategies in the book, axe isn't new. Once again, you're not factoring in familiarity of the matchup; while axe beat jman at genesis, you know who was still beating axe? Forward. Not with falco, but with fox. Familiarity with the matchup. Your argument isn't fundamentally different than taking a marth who has played plenty of foxes, and matching him up against a fox player who's never fought a decent marth in his life. Who do you think will win? Even if the fox player is amazing, with next to no matchup experience it is highly unlikely that the fox player will even have a chance. Scale it down to pikachu, and it becomes roughly even. The fact that fox players go roughly even with axe DESPITE axe outplaying them AND knowing the matchup better should suggest to you that fox vs. pikachu is indeed in fox's favor.

As a side note, I believe lovage actually has a positive record against axe, not entirely sure on that. You're also not comparing skill tiers; if we were to put axe in the skill tier that places top 5 at a national, and then pit him against lucky who do you think will win purely based on skill level? Even jman doesn't really get 4th and 5th at nationals. Honestly, I don't really see your point. If the fox is getting outplayed it doesn't mean pikachu wins the matchup, it means axe is ****ing good.

Do you understand the rigidity of your definition then? Fox could lose to Pikachu for the next 10 years but because some almighty matchup number says he wins, the matchup never tilts to Pikachu advantage. I disagree that Axe does nothing new (have you see the old Pikachus? Respect to Anther and Pikachad or whatever, but its not just faster and flashier, sorry. I don't even know how you can seriously say that), in fact I think the majority of what he does is his own invention. Just because other people used dtilt to approach doesn't mean Axe didn't revolutionize how to use dtilt as an approach.

Its tough to use Pikachu as an example because there is effectively one Pikachu, so lets look at Fox/Marth for a second. I think its undeniable that the matchup has changed over time. Foxes have developed new ****, and Marths have responded with their own stuff. It'd be really simplistic to just do a categorical analysis of the matchup without talking about the different traps and setups each character has developed, thus tilting things one way or the other. I don't know why you insist that a matchup stays constant over time. It never will, as long as there are people out there changing the metagame. Its not like there is a fixed number associated with a matchup between evenly skilled players without the context of the metagame. Even if we all get to a point where we are all god-tier at this game, the matchups will still fluctuate.

 

[Archangel]

Just like you said spam, people see what they want to see and it's ****ing annoying now. It's the main reason I'm sad and pissed off at the community.. and the same reason why I know others are too. But it's our job to keep playing and proving people wrong because most humans won't believe something until they see it.

hmmm as great as this game is the boards are..... anyway you said it best Kage.


as for druggy idk what to think.

When you say things like. "the individual player's skill does not affect the matchup in any way, shape, or form."

and say a player is "generally a better player individually" it creates a lot of wtf's naturally. However the problem is your acknowledging or ignoring the influence of the player or character at the convenience of whatever point you are trying to make at that time.

You've become that ****head from the horror films who absolutely doesn't believe there is a ghost or monster or whatever until people start dying around him and it's too late. I can't blame you for being how you are. It's not like your way of thinking makes no sense because it does however your too much of a by the book, in theory, according to *insert good player*, and based on statistics and whats on paper kind of person as far as I/we can see. You seem to be stuck in a box with a screen that repeats advanced how to play 24/7. with tier lists and outdated MU charts as commercials.

 

[SSBMLahti]

M2k can pretty much 0-death every single fox/falco on the planet when he doesn't mess up.

That's where your sense of logic is flawed brah. Everyone makes mistakes, and you can't base everything off the book when there are so many other aspects you have to take into consideration.

Marf boards own the Falco boards

 

[TheCrimsonBlur]

I ****ing hate this "I love the game, but hate the community" meme that Mango started. Its seriously the #1 thing I hate about the community right now.

(omg inception)

 

[Niko45]

The whole notion of a 0-death while discussing mixups trying to get back down to the ground where characters have OPTIONS, no matter how limited, is an oxymoron.

You either have options or you don't, and there are no options in 0-deaths.

 

[Archangel]

I ****ing hate this "I love the game, but hate the community" meme that Mango started. Its seriously the #1 thing I hate about the community right now.

(omg inception)

Don't get me wrong I love the community in person. Basically I worded it wrong. I love the smash community but I hate smashboards. It should be taken down for good. except for the brawl section.

 

[Divinokage]

I ****ing hate this "I love the game, but hate the community" meme that Mango started. Its seriously the #1 thing I hate about the community right now.

(omg inception)

Uhh... well not so much as him but after genesis i've had my share of BS. That's why I don't like people being ********, it's a general statement. I mean I don't mind friendly trolling online or in person but when you start attacking me as a person that's when I really hate you.

 

[SSBMLahti]

Uhh... well not so much as him but after genesis i've had my share of BS. That's why I don't like people being ********, it's a general statement. I mean I don't mind friendly trolling online or in person but when you start attacking me as a person that's when I really hate you.

Why what happened? I hope it doesn't involve Remen's assholish post.

 

[Divinokage]

Why what happened? I hope it doesn't involve Remen's assholish post.

Oh, oh? Did I miss some things?