Can Marth become top tier again?

[Brookman]

Saying that X character beats Z character is really quite a fruitless statement. Pichu beats sheik, suck it.

 

[Dart!]

I wouldn't disappoint my fellow Marth mains, but... I kind of agree on Marth beats ICs and Luigi.

Against ICs is tough, but against Luigi, it's like 65-35 IMO. Luigi can't do **** at all.

What DruggedFox is saying is not that crazy. It's actually true that Marth has a great advantage in all of the aspects of the MU. If you hit Luigi just ONCE, he's screwed no matter what. :O

so what you're saying is, the luigi's you've played can't space properly or recover.
luigi has ridiculous ground mobility is that impossible to see? Luigi has options with the big ****ing wavedash into shield/dashdance am i the only one that sees this?

 

[TheCrimsonBlur]

lol I have Vist, Boss, and Winston in my region.

I have the fear of Luigi burned into my soul. Hes no joke.

 

[Brookman]

You obviously suck, CB.

 

[Divinokage]

I actually tested various characters yesterday, Marth is fun but man you have to be precise.. if you aren't then you become combo meat. That's why it's mad hard to do well with Marth and probably why he can't be top tier anymore since most people know how to fight him. I read a bit of the thread and Marth definitely dominated before but I mean everyone has to adapt at some point and change it up. If a character consistently dominates that just means either the character is too broken or everyone sucks too much to adapt which thank god isn't the case lol. But however, it's still possible to do well with any character maybe some harder than others which I guess we've been trying to determine for 10 years now lol.

Umm ya Marth is kinda fun I guess, dair ftw. lol. It's actually pretty satisfying when you get x4-x5 tipper aerial combos in a row.

 

[Max?]

let's make a direct comparison:

combo game? marth wins
edge guarding game? marth wins
ground game? marth wins
mobility? marth wins
throw game? marth wins
air game? marth wins
practical range utility? marth wins

luigi's advantages on marth:
(nothing)

Using this model, Marth beats every character in the game. That probably explains why you think that he's still the best character. Theory fighter and reality are so different tho.

 

[Brookman]

Marth only needs one move to beat luigi.

$5.00 to anyone who can guess??

 

[Deleted member]

Using this model, Marth beats every character in the game. That probably explains why you think that he's still the best character. Theory fighter and reality are so different tho.

i don't see anything wrong with assessment of relative useful advantages for both characters, seeing as they are generally the base of any given matchup.

But there's no theory to it, and I pretty much never debate for theory sake anyway. Marth ***** the **** out of luigi, I really don't see why the marth players are in denial.

 

[Max?]

I'm not talking about Marth vs. Luigi, I don't really give a **** about that matchup or know anything about it. I just don't think it's fair to say that Marth is the best character in the game and has no losing matchups (when he does), especially considering that the Marth's in practice are not delivering up to theory. I will also value the opinions of actual Marth mains who go out there and perform and play over people who just talk alot on the internet and haven't done anything in years. But still, are the Marth's today just not reaching his potential and you're right? Or is Theory fighter ******** and has been for a long long time?

 

[Brookman]

Marth is a really average character. The only thing he has going for him is an abnormally long sword. The people playing as Marth aren't using his sword to its fullest potential. To be clear, Marth is not a good character, by any means. However, Marth's sword is good, and this makes up for him being terrible.

edit: his grab is good, too, but that is beside the point. Get it, point?? sword, point. . . get it?? huuuh??

 

[Max?]

I'm shocked at the notion that the truth might be in the middle of what both groups are saying.

 

[Deleted member]

I'm not talking about Marth vs. Luigi, I don't really give a **** about that matchup or know anything about it. I just don't think it's fair to say that Marth is the best character in the game and has no losing matchups (when he does), especially considering that the Marth's in practice are not delivering up to theory. I will also value the opinions of actual Marth mains who go out there and perform and play over people who just talk alot on the internet and haven't done anything in years. But still, are the Marth's today just not reaching his potential and you're right? Or is Theory fighter ******** and has been for a long long time?

I think Marth has lots of losing match-ups...on CPs, which are super relevant.I also think the current marths are doing it wrong and I'm tired of seeing marth players do grab > forward throw > get no follow-up > cry about it later. I value relevant opinions but obviously someone saying "marth has no free match-ups" is silly and I don't care who you main at that point because you're still wrong.

I'm not trying to prove that marth is the best character or has no bad matches, that's you making **** up. I am only saying that marth is a good viable character, because he is and I'm tired of the players making excuses and blaming the character instead of acknowledging ******** move choice.

Again, no theory involved.

 

[Max?]

If I really cared to look I could find posts where you put Marth as the 2nd best character in the game (the 'Final' Tier list you released back in 08 or 09 or whenever it was, back when the melee metagame was 'completely figured out' or whatever it was you claimed is good example I can think of off the top of my head). I completely agree that Marth is a good viable character, I'm actually not even sure what we are discussing anymore. What is it in your opinion that Marth mains should be doing that they aren't? Also, if you think the Marth's nowadays are doing a ton of stuff wrong, why not go out to a tournament and show all these scrubs how it's done?

 

[Divinokage]

If I really cared to look I could find posts where you put Marth as the 2nd best character in the game (the 'Final' Tier list you released back in 08 or 09 or whenever it was, back when the melee metagame was 'completely figured out' or whatever it was you claimed is good example I can think of off the top of my head). I completely agree that Marth is a good viable character, I'm actually not even sure what we are discussing anymore. What is it in your opinion that Marth mains should be doing that they aren't? Also, if you think the Marth's nowadays are doing a ton of stuff wrong, why not go out to a tournament and show all these scrubs how it's done?

That's never going to happen, it's just like a boxing fan who knows everything about boxing.. however if he does boxing himself, he will get his *** kicked lol.

 

[Archangel]

I've got a good one. Marth vs Luigi as marth:

1. run around a lot. if confused, press ><><><><><><>
2. grab luigi. if you don't know what luigi is going to do, let him do something, and then grab what he does.
3. throw him up.
4. place sword between luigi and ground until he dies. no combos, reads, mind games, or talent necessary.
5. repeat 3 times until victory.

let's make a direct comparison:

combo game? marth wins
edge guarding game? marth wins
ground game? marth wins
mobility? marth wins
throw game? marth wins
air game? marth wins
practical range utility? marth wins

luigi's advantages on marth:
(nothing)

If marth loses to luigi, that marth was outplayed. Outplaying your opponent to win is what a bad match-up is all about. marth destroys luigi in pretty much every feasible aspect that you would encounter in a set. No amount of "metagaming" is needed because no luigi-specific tricks gimmicks or strategies have been invented in the last X amount of years that nullify marth's big *** sword.

LOL!!!! You must play vs Bad luigi's. I'd also like to point out that out of the handful of Luigi's that play alot of them are considerably bad or just bad vs non Spacie/Fast Fallers.

What you've done here is effectively copy the How to section of Marth vs Peach from 06-07 and replaced Peach with Luigi and then you just paste it in here. However just like modern Peach's Luigi's that play this Match-up enough learn to take advantage of Marth's weaknesses much like Falcon's and Fox's have. Luigi's(good ones) that can have very good control are about as fast as fox and actually have better range then it seems.

I've played Marth for about 3 years now and I've Main'd him for over 2 years. I've played against a good Luigi for about 5 or 6 years now so as someone more hands on experience I'll take a closer look.

Luigi vs Marth
Combos = Even (neither can combo the each other well it's usually tit for tat until someone gets hit solidly.

edge guarding game = Even or slight luigi(Marth's recover is Free but so is Luigi's, however there is the danger of Misfire in which case an edgeguard chance could become a stock loss.

ground game = Draw if both players play it right. Depending on the stage it's in Marth's favor or pretty far in Luigi's Favor(if you use the gayness of Kongo 64 for example but only like 2 Luigi's on the planet know about this.)

air game MARTH!!!!!! This is where Marth imo takes a slight edge. The problem vs Good Luigi's and inexperienced Marth also takes place in the air. In order to beat luigi here you have to bait the use of the second jump at the wrong time. For example if you double fair luigi a good luigi will DI after out of it by the time you go for the next hit and look for a safe way to the ground or a counter hit/trade that will get you away. So even though it's Marth's bread and butter in this MU if not done right you'll miss the opportunity completely.

mobility Luigi but it's also stage dependent however most of the time it's in Luigi's favor. He takes the role of Falcon or Fox because with the use of his Wavedash he's FAST AS ****! Players with Control will be faster than you so you have to control space.

grab game Slight Marth. Luigi has his Dthrow setups but Marth can has his broken grab that will sometime grab from super distance or grab Luigi in cases where it seems....not legit lol.

Range = Luigi. He's got a Projectile so he wins by default

Space control(Marth) I believe you confused this with what you called Range Utility. If Marth is on his spacing game Luigi's really have to think hard about how they approach otherwise it's a free tipper or grab-edgeguard. Experienced Luigi's will most likely Wavedash retreat fireball at you and basically try wait for you to create an opening but it's still not solid.


All in all I think the MU is the same as Sheik vs Marth except the Opposite.

Luigi's that can't play it like to say it's 60-40 or worse but Those that can say it's about 55-45 but really feel like they have a chance if they play their cards right.

I think it's probably closer to 55-45 Marth Having played both sides of the MU now.

 

[Niko45]

Matchups are dumb. A peach just won a national. A doc got 5th. A guy got 3rd playing Mewtwo in some bracket matches. Who cares who "beats" who anymore? Just go out and win

 

[Brookman]

Matchups are dumb. A peach just won a national. A doc got 5th. A guy got 3rd playing Mewtwo in some bracket matches. Who cares who "beats" who anymore? Just go out and win

this .

 

[Max?]

Matchups are dumb. A peach just won a national. A doc got 5th. A guy got 3rd playing Mewtwo in some bracket matches. Who cares who "beats" who anymore? Just go out and win

This this this this this this this.

 

[Druggedfox]

Luigi vs Marth
Combos = Even (neither can combo the each other well it's usually tit for tat until someone gets hit solidly. Technically correct, but marth's "combo" game is a term that's used loosely. Combo and grab game are actually equivalent; its less of a combo game, and more that marth upthrows luigi and then luigi never gets down. It doesn't matter if its in the form of a combo or not, luigi never touches the ground, and you get a lot of damage until he dies. Marth clearly wins this.

edge guarding game = Even or slight luigi(Marth's recover is Free but so is Luigi's, however there is the danger of Misfire in which case an edgeguard chance could become a stock loss. Incorrect once again; luigi is too floaty to refresh invincibility well, and a lot of his moves if DI'd correctly send characters at not particularly good trajectories (aka they can go really really high). That said, luigi doesn't consistently have the tools to kill marth everytime he is offstage, nor does he have the tools to gimp marth effectively. Marth on the other hand and pretty much dair luigi at any % and have him gimped/dead and the same with dtilt. Luigi's side-b has extreme lag that is underabused; simply jumping off the stage usually kills luigi. Clear marth advantage, particularly if you include gimping.

ground game = Draw if both players play it right. Depending on the stage it's in Marth's favor or pretty far in Luigi's Favor(if you use the gayness of Kongo 64 for example but only like 2 Luigi's on the planet know about this.) How is this a draw? Luigi loses due to worse range and priority, everything getting CCd, and a very linear approach in the form of a wavedash... that's about it. The only way its a draw is if the luigi actually manages to *outplay* the marth and predict his movement choices. Also, if luigi actually lands the hit, his punishment isn't as strong (luigi will be landing random ftilts and such a lot more) because of the nature of the hits (marth will be getting grabs which lead to luigi being butthurt).

air game MARTH!!!!!! This is where Marth imo takes a slight edge. The problem vs Good Luigi's and inexperienced Marth also takes place in the air. In order to beat luigi here you have to bait the use of the second jump at the wrong time. For example if you double fair luigi a good luigi will DI after out of it by the time you go for the next hit and look for a safe way to the ground or a counter hit/trade that will get you away. So even though it's Marth's bread and butter in this MU if not done right you'll miss the opportunity completely. Sure this is marth's advantage, but I'm not really sure why luigi would even be thinkin about second jumping...what a terrible idea. Luigi can't go into the air effectively vs marth unless he wants to die; of course marth wins, but luigi really shouldn't be in the air.

mobility Luigi but it's also stage dependent however most of the time it's in Luigi's favor. He takes the role of Falcon or Fox because with the use of his Wavedash he's FAST AS ****! Players with Control will be faster than you so you have to control space. Speed =/= mobility. Marth has much more control over his movement which is key in this matchup. Marth has one of the longest initial dash animations in the game allowing him to control his movement very precisely over a long range; luigi can just WD different distances... I'll put it like this: luigi's main form of movement places him in 10 frames of lag everytime he uses it while committing to large distances... how awful is that compared to the beauty of marth's dash dance game.

grab game Slight Marth. Luigi has his Dthrow setups but Marth can has his broken grab that will sometime grab from super distance or grab Luigi in cases where it seems....not legit lol. Not only is marth's grab actually better in and of itself, but once he gets a grab he can do infinitely more. Luigi's dthrow/upthrow lead to... one hit if the marth knows how to DI correctly, perhaps 2-3 at max in certain situations. As has been mentioned many times, just throw luigi up and he can't do anything besides down-b and hope the marth messes up his timing

Range = Luigi. He's got a Projectile so he wins by default I guess you could refer to this as range, though I was thinking more like marth's sword is huge and he has priority to go along with it (something luigi doesn't have). But sure, luigi has a mediocre projectile that can be useful occasionally.

Space control(Marth) I believe you confused this with what you called Range Utility. If Marth is on his spacing game Luigi's really have to think hard about how they approach otherwise it's a free tipper or grab-edgeguard. Experienced Luigi's will most likely Wavedash retreat fireball at you and basically try wait for you to create an opening but it's still not solid. Range or range utility I'm not really sure why it matters; luigi's projectile is hardly that useful overall and more important than a lack of range, he doesn't even approach marth's priority. Marth's sword will just eat through everything. Luigi has to think about how he approaches otherwise he gets tippered (I assume you mean fsmash). Why is marth fsmashing? Why the hell is marth fsmashing in neutral...


All in all I think the MU is the same as Sheik vs Marth except the Opposite.

Luigi's that can't play it like to say it's 60-40 or worse but Those that can say it's about 55-45 but really feel like they have a chance if they play their cards right.

I think it's probably closer to 55-45 Marth Having played both sides of the MU now. Having played marth for 7 years and practicing and personally teaching a luigi main, I will respectfully disagree. Maybe I just suck though and don't know anything about marth >_>

I suck at this game

Edit: Yeah Niko that works too. I do plan on going out and winning as soon as I get the chance

 

[Mew2King]

i don't think theory matters that much especially when saying spacing. Marth doesn't have the whole home run contest to do retreating fairs (where he would get projectile camped anyway), so when he does defensive maneuvers he gives up stage control. No humans have android reaction time to see everything that is going on and perfectly counter with a fair or whatever. Theory talk does not matter especially in a game as complex as melee. Once you get into him and do really good shield pressure (especially if you can land behind him) he also becomes a lot worse. He's fine vs space animals until they start playing perfect. Perfect space animals are a completely different story (perfect tech wise anyway, which is not too hard). It is true marth can do big combos but he also gets comboed harder than any other top tier and put into horrible positions where his best option is often to hope they make a mistake, do something stupid, or get cocky, where marth punishes extremely hard for that. I think marth's 5th best still, but still in the top tier, just the very bottom of it. No way he's as good as falco fox puff and sheik overall. He's clearly better than peach and falcon (overall, I think falcon wins head to head slightly, but marth probably beats peach head to head slightly). I think as far as ice climbers go I'm too used to chu's style. I've 3 stocked him in tourney with marth 4 times before but the desync I am not used to (probably never will be) so I get ***** by that

 

[DarkChronosColdsteel]

Matchups are dumb. A peach just won a national. A doc got 5th. A guy got 3rd playing Mewtwo in some bracket matches. Who cares who "beats" who anymore? Just go out and win

The game, you won it.

 

[TheCrimsonBlur]

You obviously suck, CB.

Don't worry now that I know all I have to do is uthrow and swing my sword I got this.

 

[Archangel]

I suck at this game

Edit: Yeah Niko that works too. I do plan on going out and winning as soon as I get the chance

It took me a second to see what you did. Your counter arguments seem to be read from the rule book. It's 2011-2012 my friend. Nlggas is re-writing the book. Started in late 08-09 and over the past 3 years the impossible has happened. However has it ever really been impossible? Niko brings up a strong point. In the past 3 years Character that were written off much like your trying to write off Luigi have risen to amazing heights.

*Puff wins Nationals/International Multiple times(once considered as bad as someone like Luigi)

Recap a few things

*Peach wins Nationals/Internationals(another feat never thought to occur.

*Fox goes on almost a 3 year losing streak at national/internationals

*Pikachu places top 10/5/3 at Internationals

*Sheik becomes a rarely played character

*Marth becomes a rarely played character

*Falcons learn how to dominate Spacies

*Spacies learn how to *** Falcon/Marth/Sheik

*Falcons/Sheiks/Marth(at least one) Re-learns how to play vs Spacies

*Marths start losing to peaches at regionals/nationals/internationals

*Mario completely dies as a character in tournaments

*Westcoast wins a crew battle vs Eastcoast

*Zelda places top 3 at regionals/nationals

*Doc Places top 5/3/wins regional/nationals and places top 5 at internationals.

*Puff loses to a Y.link get trolled Hbox.

*Isai loses a Smash64 tournament

*Bin Laden dies.



OK this is dragging on far enough lol. My point being that 99% of peoples outlook on recent history in smash is coming from the wrong point of view. Players like Axe or Kage or Armada they aren't doing things the impossible at all. They aren't re-writing the book they are simply erasing lines that were incorrect from the start! Fox has Never had an advantage of Pikachu it's always been about even. The problem with this community and others is that if enough people believe something it becomes a fact. Even if it never was or never will be true.

 

[Pi]

it's not up to your character to be top tier
lol

 

[Max?]

In all fairness, it's probably still impossible for WC best team to beat EC best team. Still tho, props to them for beating EC's C team.

 

[Divinokage]

In all fairness, it's probably still impossible for WC best team to beat EC best team. Still tho, props to them for beating EC's C team.

I felt like saying that but WC seems so happy about their victory lol..

 

[Max?]

Let em enjoy it, they haven't won a crew battle in forever.

 

[Druggedfox]

Okay so, let me make sure I'm getting this right. You're taking my well constructed argument, and then effectively ignoring it by listing various changes throughout the metagame, none of which actually provide a solid counterargument. I don't know what rulebook nonsense you're talking about, but I base my arguments off of something that seriously seems to be lacking from any counterargument I've seen: logic. Yes you're right, all those things have happened.

I never once claimed that a low tier couldn't beat marth; I simply claimed that in order for the low tier to win they had to clearly outplay the marth. As was said earlier, that is all a disadvantaged matchup implies. No, fox vs pikachu is not a 50/50 matchup; axe is just far better at the matchup than any fox player, and is often a better player individually. He outplays them, and outmatchups them. There's no "rewriting" of a rule book, just a motivated player out to do his best with a character he loves.

Somehow you conceive my suggesting that marth has a clear advantage as a suggestion that it is "unwinnable" for luigi. Not only is your counterargument incorrect, but if you truly believe the things you said then why can't you back them up with logical evidence from the matchups? If the matchups have truly been "rewritten" then you should be able to identify exactly what about them has changed; some arbitrary anecdotal evidence referencing players outplaying one another means essentially nothing in this argument. If these rewrites are the truth, then you should be able to take from what you see and construct a logical argument that truly beats the "rulebook".

It took me a second to see what you did...you got impressed by low tiers accomplishing something. I'm quite aware of smash history, and all of that really doesn't say much to me. All I'm trying to do is help the marth metagame move forward; I'm not trying to come in and tell you that you're playing your character wrong just to be an *******. I honestly love marth as a character, and when I say "hey, you guys are doing this wrong" its not just so that I can complain fox is bad and marth is good, its because I want marth to be good.

The marth boards for at least the last year have essentially spent their time whining about their characters' flaws, just like every other character specific board. That's not productive to the marth metagame, its just an outlet for complaints. I'm not just making random claims based on whacky-*** theories; if you were to link me to any current marth's matches from genesis I could probably point out countless things they could have improved upon as a marth. There are so many option coverage choices that marths don't use, terrible move choices, spacing errors, and just general bad decisions that even some of the top marths do. Instead of trying to help marth move forward, we just sign it off to marth being some character that loses to fox, falco, ICs, puff, and falcon, gets ***** by sheik, and goes even with peach. Let's just declare marth a low tier already and be done with it, if thats the case.

Edit: Isai totally threw the set at genesis; just saying.

 

[Van.]

2002: guyzzz any character can win just go playyy

2003-2010 : logical tier list debate and discussion

2011: guyzzz any character can win just go playyy

The cycle is complete.

Also who has Taj beaten with mewtwo?

 

[Brookman]

This thread just took a turn for the awesome.

 

[Pi]

honestly marth metagame would probably advance quicker if you did declare him a low tier

that way people would stop expecting to automatically win because he's a good character and instead have to think about the best time and place to use certain moves

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

so what you're saying is, the luigi's you've played can't space properly or recover.
luigi has ridiculous ground mobility is that impossible to see? Luigi has options with the big ****ing wavedash into shield/dashdance am i the only one that sees this?

Pretty much this.

 

[Max?]

I think Brookman got this right a long time ago. It's a combination of Marth mains perhaps not playing optimally, and the fact that he's not as good as was originally thought a long time ago. I agree with m2k, he's 5th.

 

[Niko45]

honestly marth metagame would probably advance quicker if you did declare him a low tier

I've taken this mentality for a long time now, and it definitely helps. Maybe not necessarily low tier but non-top tier.

 

[TheCrimsonBlur]

Okay so, let me make sure I'm getting this right. You're taking my well constructed argument, and then effectively ignoring it by listing various changes throughout the metagame, none of which actually provide a solid counterargument. I don't know what rulebook nonsense you're talking about, but I base my arguments off of something that seriously seems to be lacking from any counterargument I've seen: logic. Yes you're right, all those things have happened.

I never once claimed that a low tier couldn't beat marth; I simply claimed that in order for the low tier to win they had to clearly outplay the marth. As was said earlier, that is all a disadvantaged matchup implies. No, fox vs pikachu is not a 50/50 matchup; axe is just far better at the matchup than any fox player, and is often a better player individually. He outplays them, and outmatchups them. There's no "rewriting" of a rule book, just a motivated player out to do his best with a character he loves.

Yo dfox, I think you have a really archaic definitions of "matchups" and "tier lists." You simply add up certain aspects of the game (offstage game, neutral, etc.) and then try to make a conclusion out of it. But there is more to winning in this game than a sum of parts. Your method leads to a lot of vagaries that can lead to ultimately illogical solutions. If you implemented your methods without bias (as in, you didn't have a set number for a matchup before breaking it down into parts), you'd realize how flawed it is. You'd study a matchup for each category and each category only and then try to quantify who has the advantage or disadvantage. This would be rather tough, and you'd quickly find that you need to recategorize or that certain aspects blur the boundaries between categories, but ultimately lets say you find a solution to every category for a particular matchup. At the end you will have a bunch of results but you will still be just as far away from truly understanding what the ultimate sum of the parts are, because you will find it hard to weigh each category for importance. If character X wins spacing and edgeguarding but character Y wins combos and punishment, then who wins overall? Its impossible and silly to say; matchup analysis requires a more holistic approach that focuses on the strategies that players implement, and not on a raw number crunch.

Matchups are a function of the metagame. They change because strategies change. If the current crop of Fox players cannot deal with the strategies that the current crop of Pikachu players are using, then Pikachu is winning the matchup right now. You can't just say that Fox players should do this or should do that and write off the strategies that the Pikachus are implementing.

Note that thinking like this actually removes player skill from the equation. Its not about tournament results, but rather a dissection of strategy. Whether a Fox player suicides 4 times a match and loses to a Pikachu is not relevant to the discussion. What is relevant is if Fox players have trouble dealing with overshot nair to instant uair or uair out of shield from Pikachu, and have yet to find proper spacing tools to beat it. If no Fox player can beat the overall set of strategies put forth by Pikachus, then, at least for the moment, the matchup is in Pikachu's favor.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

i consider falcon a better character in the current metagame than marth. My list is basically

S: Fox/Falco
A: Sheik/Puff
B: Falcon/Peach
C: Marth/ICs
D: Samus/Ganon/Doc/Pika

 

[OverLord]

so what you're saying is, the luigi's you've played can't space properly or recover.
luigi has ridiculous ground mobility is that impossible to see? Luigi has options with the big ****ing wavedash into shield/dashdance am i the only one that sees this?

I'm the only one not scared at all by a laggy Luigi wavedashing all around, while I have a HUGE sword covering his ground and air game..?

The main point against Luigi is just being careful. Luigi really has a hard time approaching, and can't actually punish you as much as you can. I really can't see how this MU is better than 60-40 for Luigi.

Also, I played bad and good Luigis in my life.. Not Eddie Mexico though, but I'll do when I can.

Marth only needs one move to beat luigi.

$5.00 to anyone who can guess??

Dtilt.

Matchups are dumb. A peach just won a national. A doc got 5th. A guy got 3rd playing Mewtwo in some bracket matches. Who cares who "beats" who anymore? Just go out and win

This is always true, but discussing on MUs is fun.

Okay so, let me make sure I'm getting this right. You're taking my well constructed argument, and then effectively ignoring it by listing various changes throughout the metagame, none of which actually provide a solid counterargument. I don't know what rulebook nonsense you're talking about, but I base my arguments off of something that seriously seems to be lacking from any counterargument I've seen: logic. Yes you're right, all those things have happened.

I never once claimed that a low tier couldn't beat marth; I simply claimed that in order for the low tier to win they had to clearly outplay the marth. As was said earlier, that is all a disadvantaged matchup implies. No, fox vs pikachu is not a 50/50 matchup; axe is just far better at the matchup than any fox player, and is often a better player individually. He outplays them, and outmatchups them. There's no "rewriting" of a rule book, just a motivated player out to do his best with a character he loves.

Somehow you conceive my suggesting that marth has a clear advantage as a suggestion that it is "unwinnable" for luigi. Not only is your counterargument incorrect, but if you truly believe the things you said then why can't you back them up with logical evidence from the matchups? If the matchups have truly been "rewritten" then you should be able to identify exactly what about them has changed; some arbitrary anecdotal evidence referencing players outplaying one another means essentially nothing in this argument. If these rewrites are the truth, then you should be able to take from what you see and construct a logical argument that truly beats the "rulebook".

It took me a second to see what you did...you got impressed by low tiers accomplishing something. I'm quite aware of smash history, and all of that really doesn't say much to me. All I'm trying to do is help the marth metagame move forward; I'm not trying to come in and tell you that you're playing your character wrong just to be an *******. I honestly love marth as a character, and when I say "hey, you guys are doing this wrong" its not just so that I can complain fox is bad and marth is good, its because I want marth to be good.

The marth boards for at least the last year have essentially spent their time whining about their characters' flaws, just like every other character specific board. That's not productive to the marth metagame, its just an outlet for complaints. I'm not just making random claims based on whacky-*** theories; if you were to link me to any current marth's matches from genesis I could probably point out countless things they could have improved upon as a marth. There are so many option coverage choices that marths don't use, terrible move choices, spacing errors, and just general bad decisions that even some of the top marths do. Instead of trying to help marth move forward, we just sign it off to marth being some character that loses to fox, falco, ICs, puff, and falcon, gets ***** by sheik, and goes even with peach. Let's just declare marth a low tier already and be done with it, if thats the case.

Edit: Isai totally threw the set at genesis; just saying.

I agree.

 

[TheCrimsonBlur]

lol the whole "low tier mentality" thing is ****ing sick right? ****ing gospel man, ****ing gospel. Preach.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

See i consider marth a character that requires precision to beat, but that his gameplay is almost a gimmick. Once you know what to not fall into and how to punish his stuff, he has very few options. I think marth's biggest weakness is that he has a difficult time actually gaining position on the stage unless its given to him out of fear. His movement game is nice, but his actual aggressive and defensive game is meh.

 

[Brookman]

It sounds like you just play vs. nooby marths, sveet.