Brawlplusery Official Codeset 5.0 RC1 Discussion

[5ive]

http://www.ustream.tv/channel/im5ive

GO NAO

 

[Iamthemovie]

If we're still on the discussion of Samus, is it possible to make her able to immediately act after a bomb jump?
I'm not sure if the bomb jump animation is a subaction but if it is, can we insert an IASA frame in there so she can attack out of it after the bomb jump?

 

[GHNeko]

IIRC, Shanus is working on it.

 

[N.A.G.A.C.E]

i feel that zelda's up-smash got nerfed in the most recent version of brawl+ and this makes her one of the worst characters. Without comboing out of her up-smash she gets very few to almost no good added combos in brawl+ and since i feel brawl+ is a game almost all about the ability to combo this makes her a bad character and should be fixed. i would like to note that in the last version of brawl+ i played which i think was 5.0 zelda could up-smash > lightning kick at low dmg, and against fast-fallers up-smash> up-smash> lightning kick. This combo would only work once per the opponents life so it was not broken and was her best way of racking up dmg. I will also say i am still trying to get use to the changes in the newest version so i might be missing something but i don't think so.

Now suggestions for zelda: i feel her f-tilt could stand to be a little faster then you guys made it maybe 8 frames, i feel up-tilt should be faster as well maybe 10 or 11 frames. I also think her up-B should be sped up a little more as well i feel 1.5x is still a little slow maybe 1.6x or 1.75x (2.0x was to fast and kinda broken), if you don't want to speed it up maybe you can test her up-B not putting her in free-fall and have it act like lucario's (its a strange idea but her recovery is just so punishable).

Now things that would be cool but i would never expect to see done with zelda: have her d-air ether sweet spot grounded opponents or put them in the ground like DK's side-B (it would be cool), her her neutral-B able to be held out like fox's down-B (take away hit box just have it reflect).

besides zelda who is one of my 3 mains in brawl+ i have no complaints i can think of right now (sheik and rob=very well made)

I do have a questions about lucario and ivy: why not just give his up-B a hit box instead of no free-fall? Why was ivy's ability to keep using up-b taken away?

 

[CloneHat]

Usmash>Usmash>lightning kick? Ridiculous!

That would do almost 50 damage IIRC!

 

[Alphatron]

Speeding up Zelda's utilt ruins the current purpose of the move. Right now, that thing rips through airdodges and can even roll punish. I also disagree with your other suggested buffs, but that's because I don't see Zelda as a bad character at all. She's no combo master.

 

[N.A.G.A.C.E]

cloehat: thats true but that is all she would have combo wise, and you could adjust it so only one up-smash to lightning kick works, plus you only got a lightning kick if the opponent di'ed it wrong you would instead get a up-air which has nice nockback but dmg wise is not as good as lightning kick.

Alphatron: i see you point about about up-tilt and you are right i was to busy thinking like a snake player (i picked him up vbrawl) Can you tell me why you are against the other suggestions? Also i don't want her to be a combo master that would not make sense what i want is just one reliable low dmg combo b/c i feel without that she will be left behind by other characters and might just once again become a way for sheik to kill instead of being good in her own right. At the min i feel her up-smash should combo against ganondorf instead of send him at a angle were i can't hit him. I mean her up-smash should at least combo fast-fallers and/or heavies but it does not. And you say you don't see her as a bad character i don't see her as a good one. She gets juggled and is light while she is unable to juggle to even things up. (you have to at least think having her d-air put you in the ground is a cool idea even if its not a good one)

Lastly i forgot to ask for faster grabs for zelda (as far as i know they are still 12 frames in brawl+)

 

[Alphatron]

Well, at low damage percent, the usmash can still lead into uair on most characters, including Samus. On heavy characters, the usmash can lead into most attacks aside from itself. I forgot the right percent, but dtilt can lead into guarenteed lightning kicks on everybody in the cast. While she may not be as good as Snake in the defense department, she's still a threat as she is able to severly punish characters who must approach her.

Her vbrawl weakness of sucking against nearly every character she can't approach still seems to be in though. Some people say she has the advantage on Ness/Lucas but I don't believe that.

I disagree with your suggestions for ftilt and UpB because they were already sped up. Ftilt still leads into usmash at low percent and UpB isn't punishable at all when used wisely(as in I don't have characters running halfway across FD and successfully punishing me like in vbrawl). Her losing the freefall would be fairly pointless, as it doesn't help her at all. What will she use UpB for then with that buff? Fancy aerial finishers? It won't aid recovery even if she were able to Din's fire afterwards.

 

[MK26]

well i for one think removing freefall on zelda's up-b would be cool...functional? not as much, but still...it'd be cool

but should we really be discussing buffs and nerfs now?

 

[cobaltblue]

In regards to samus:

I do not know how she plays in high level play but I am really surprised people would complain about her at mid skill levels. To me at least she seems fairly easy to pick up and hard to master. Her skill set strikes a nice balance of power, range, and generally being a pain in the ***. The only real flaw to nick pick about would be her bombs in combat and her slow fall speed.

Although I may be a bit biased as a sonic main since everyone not sonic seems to be hell of alot easier to adopt and own with provided you practice a little.

 

[N.A.G.A.C.E]

Well, at low damage percent, the usmash can still lead into uair on most characters, including Samus. On heavy characters, the usmash can lead into most attacks aside from itself. I forgot the right percent, but dtilt can lead into guarenteed lightning kicks on everybody in the cast. While she may not be as good as Snake in the defense department, she's still a threat as she is able to severly punish characters who must approach her.

Her vbrawl weakness of sucking against nearly every character she can't approach still seems to be in though. Some people say she has the advantage on Ness/Lucas but I don't believe that.

I disagree with your suggestions for ftilt and UpB because they were already sped up. Ftilt still leads into usmash at low percent and UpB isn't punishable at all when used wisely(as in I don't have characters running halfway across FD and successfully punishing me like in vbrawl). Her losing the freefall would be fairly pointless, as it doesn't help her at all. What will she use UpB for then with that buff? Fancy aerial finishers? It won't aid recovery even if she were able to Din's fire afterwards.

I think if they made up-B a little faster (less lag) then she would not have much problem approaching so it would help fix one of her major weakness. 2nd i know they made her f-tilt faster i just don't feel its fast enough when compared to other peoples tilts. Also even through i said removing free-fall as a suggestion it was in my never will happen pile and just less lag is more then good enough. Up-B is punishable when used to recover b/c were you will land is obvious. Does d-tilt to lightning kick wrk when the d-tilt pops them up? Lastly you know the d-air to being put in the ground is a very cool idea.

Also just saying i played a good falcon today and falcon seems to good he combos like crazy he might be the best in the game at combos and then they all go into the knee. he might be to good but only time will tell.

 

[sffadsad]

Every character has major strengths and weaknesses. Zelda is a powerhouse who has trouble approaching. She's pretty good at where she's at right now, and if you use her in conjunction with Sheik, the two become pretty beast. A sped up up-b would allow her to approach, but it would also allow her to run, and it would buff her recovery. That's too much stuff especially since she's pretty good as she is.

 

[Alphatron]

Falcon is good, but still has some major weaknesses. He has problems approaching some characters as well. I wouldn't even put him in top ten currently.

As for making UpB faster, it could aid with approaching. But the move is ridiculously predictable(the only thing you can do is teleport in place or try to teleport diagonally to cut Zelda's distance in half) and would just be shielded and punished. If it was made fast enough to get around that...then Faeore's Wind would be broken.

...Though the spells of the goddeses of Hyrule are severely lacking in this game.

 

[GHNeko]

The move is not really that predictable. :/

 

[Alphatron]

lolx teleport cancelling.

 

[leafgreen386]

If zelda recovers such that she has two possible locations she can safely upB to, it's impossible to punish her landing lag. The move already has very low landlag such that you can only punish it if you're right by it and start swinging as she appears, meaning you have to predict where she'll choose to appear at. There is no reason for this move to be any faster than it is already, and if its landlag were reduced any more, we'd have to remove the hitbox on reappearance.

You can keep asking for buffs that won't get in, or you could go learn how to use zelda in brawl+. Ryoko seems to do quite well with her, so perhaps you simply need to get better.

 

[cobaltblue]

Why would Zelda's move need a buff? Unless you were spamming it without thought it works as a pretty good recovery. And the hitbox around it when she reappears should keep campers off her.

 

[N.A.G.A.C.E]

With zelda all i am saying is that she got nerfed since the last brawl+ i played and its upsetting, and that she does not seem that good to me. I dont care if Ryoko is doing well with her that does not change that she is not a very good character. I am not saying she is the worst but she is lacking in obvious areas which i think will keep her from becoming a viable character and i am giving suggestions on how to fix it, since i am still getting use to this version of brawl+ i might be wrong but i don't think i am but if i turn out to be wrong i will be more then happy to come back here and say how wrong i was since i want zelda to be a good character and not just some add on for sheik.

2nd i am starting to think cf may not be the best since my rob is taking him down.

3rd rob is awesome.

4th i think falcon's speed makes it so he can approach pretty well

5th and last: this might not be the right place to ask this but who do people think are the top ten in brawl+

 

[Magus420]

I don't think I could just list 10 without some of the ones after them. For now though there's really too many characters, and not enough large tournaments of a wide range of characters being represented at a very high level. There are a number of characters that could potentially be extremely good but are very underplayed or not used by the better players.

Fox
Ness
Wolf
Falco
Squirtle
Lucario
Metaknight
Luigi
Kirby
Captain Falcon

Sheik
Marth
Wario
R.O.B.
Olimar
Peach
Diddy
Pikachu
Pit
ZSS


I would probably put Zelda within the next 5 or so after that imo.

 

[SymphonicSage12]

If anyone cares, I've made a mod of Dedede's down throw thanks to Dantarion's sexiness. I believe that it is extremely sexy and has a new use besides techchasing. The new data is:

Angle: 70
BKB: 60
KBG: 75
weight-dependent base kb is removed

 

[KOkingpin]

If anyone cares, I've made a mod of Dedede's down throw thanks to Dantarion's sexiness. I believe that it is extremely sexy and has a new use besides techchasing. The new data is:

Angle: 70
BKB: 60
KBG: 75
weight-dependent base kb is removed

honestly I like it the way it is, but Id be willing to try a new mod for it.

About all the zelda stuff earlier. Does she really need combos? I mean shes kinda a defensive based character. Like Bowser in a sense. Not everyone needs like 12 different combos.

And also about Samus. I think giving her a faster Fast Fall would fix a lot of things wrong with her. Shes is quite good at spacing her opponents with homing missles and Zair. The only move I have a problem with is Nair. It used to have more knockback on the initial hitbox and now its like a strong flub. She really lacks dependable kill set ups. Charge shot is really your only shot at a lower percentage (120ish) KO.

 

[N.A.G.A.C.E]

the problem with the idea zelda is good as she is she just can't approach is that 90 out of 100 times she will have to approach making her bad. Also just a thought if u made her up B faster and took out free-fall so its just like lucario's then she could not spam it b/c she would have to get hit or jump to be able to use the up-B again (i think thats how lucario's works i don't really ever play him).

Also so what if she is good in conjunction with sheik what if someone loves zelda but does not like sheik they should be able to use zelda solo which right now i don't think they would be able to do.

And yes i think she does need combos.

I don't get it it seems to me she has to many weaknesses that she needs a buff to be competitive and for some reason people seem against it. If i knew other characters better who i saw needed buffs i would be posting about them as well. I am just calling it as i see it.

Lastly no one ever told me why they don't just change lucario's up-B so it has a hitbox or why they made it so ivy can only up-B once (just wondering)

 

[KOkingpin]

the problem with the idea zelda is good as she is she just can't approach is that 90 out of 100 times she will have to approach making her bad. Also just a thought if u made her up B faster and took out free-fall so its just like lucario's then she could not spam it b/c she would have to get hit or jump to be able to use the up-B again (i think thats how lucario's works i don't really ever play him).

Also so what if she is good in conjunction with sheik what if someone loves zelda but does not like sheik they should be able to use zelda solo which right now i don't think they would be able to do.

And yes i think she does need combos.

I don't get it it seems to me she has to many weaknesses that she needs a buff to be competitive and for some reason people seem against it. If i knew other characters better who i saw needed buffs i would be posting about them as well. I am just calling it as i see it.

Lastly no one ever told me why they don't just change lucario's up-B so it has a hitbox or why they made it so ivy can only up-B once (just wondering)

For the most part Zelda is easy mode. She isnt top 10 but if played correctly by using shiek and zelda together they become a better character as a whole. Playing who you like is part of knowing the characters weaknesses as well. If you like zelda and only play zelda then you lose the combo-ability that sheik gives zelda see it as though Zelda/Shiek can decently combat the whole cast if you use both character. Down B is a move on them for a reason. Use it. I just don't Think "I don't want to use shiek" is a good excuse to buff up zelda who is already a nice character.

As for Lucario. I could agree more that they need to rework it. He can almost perfect ledge stall (maybe perfect if you can be frame perfect with it) I know that the auto latch is something that hasnt been able to be fixed yet but his ability to Attack out of up B gives him a total advantage when planking. you only option is to grab the ledge from him, so you grab the ledge then he up b's passed you and Dairs you when you come up (or punishes you accordingly) I really think some things on Lucario need to be looked over.

Giving Ivysaur more than one up b is just silly. I love ivy and some of the gravity changes ruined her for me but multiple up b for Ivy is a little broken. Ivy recovers pretty well if you time you razor leafs right. On stage Ivy is still pretty beastly though. but just like Zelda/sheik I dont think the Wild pokemon weren't meant to be played alone and they both perform better when played as a whole.

oh and one more thing. Not going into free fall after an Up B is silly. Lucario should def go into free fall. Give it a hitbox if you wanna give him something. I think the same for Game and Watch because he doesnt go into free fall if you hit him with a windbox or cape he gets his up B back. Thats pretty stupid if you ask me. Snake's and R.O.B.'s Up B are a little different. Oh and Zero Suit Samus's Up B should Put her into Free Fall aswell. Some of her Easy Mode combos are caused by not going into free fall from an up B. I think thats It but forgive me if I missed a character.

Sorry for the long Post.

 

[N.A.G.A.C.E]

For the most part Zelda is easy mode. She isnt top 10 but if played correctly by using shiek and zelda together they become a better character as a whole. Playing who you like is part of knowing the characters weaknesses as well. If you like zelda and only play zelda then you lose the combo-ability that sheik gives zelda see it as though Zelda/Shiek can decently combat the whole cast if you use both character. Down B is a move on them for a reason. Use it. I just don't Think "I don't want to use shiek" is a good excuse to buff up zelda who is already a nice character.

As for Lucario. I could agree more that they need to rework it. He can almost perfect ledge stall (maybe perfect if you can be frame perfect with it) I know that the auto latch is something that hasnt been able to be fixed yet but his ability to Attack out of up B gives him a total advantage when planking. you only option is to grab the ledge from him, so you grab the ledge then he up b's passed you and Dairs you when you come up (or punishes you accordingly) I really think some things on Lucario need to be looked over.

Giving Ivysaur more than one up b is just silly. I love ivy and some of the gravity changes ruined her for me but multiple up b for Ivy is a little broken. Ivy recovers pretty well if you time you razor leafs right. On stage Ivy is still pretty beastly though. but just like Zelda/sheik I dont think the Wild pokemon weren't meant to be played alone and they both perform better when played as a whole.

oh and one more thing. Not going into free fall after an Up B is silly. Lucario should def go into free fall. Give it a hitbox if you wanna give him something. I think the same for Game and Watch because he doesnt go into free fall if you hit him with a windbox or cape he gets his up B back. Thats pretty stupid if you ask me. Snake's and R.O.B.'s Up B are a little different. Oh and Zero Suit Samus's Up B should Put her into Free Fall aswell. Some of her Easy Mode combos are caused by not going into free fall from an up B. I think thats It but forgive me if I missed a character.

Sorry for the long Post.

You make some good points in your post. I originally mained zelda in brawl (as you might tell by the pic of her head under my avatar) and i would like to see her good enough to be used alone. But your argument that the down-b is their for a reason is not a bad one but in that case is down b fast enough (i am really asking that i find it kinda slow but much better then vbrawl). Also just b/c u can switch should not mean you have to for the characters to be viable imo.

i don't see why zzs should go into free fall from her up B i mean she didn't in vbrawl and even through it can add to combos i don't think its broken. (plus the cmbos from it are very cool)

Also if you don't like the pokemon by themselves you can still use pt so thats not much of a problem, but i think their are many people who would just like the choice one of the pokemon to play with. Also on pokemon subject anyone ever think abot making it so u could choice any mixture of two of the pokemon to play with i.e ivy, and charzard no squrt?

I agree that lucario should just get a hitbox on his up-B, i was talking to a friend of mine that uses him and i asked him what do you want lucario to have and one of the things he mentioned was a hitbox on the up-B not this no free-fall thing. (this coversation was not about brawl+ but i think this applies to brawl+)

Just throwing this out there: rob's up-B not grabbing the ledge kinda annoying but no complaints since i love how he plays. I just need to get use to that (i get punished alot for forgetting)

Also i forgive you for Your long post

 

[cobaltblue]

I can't really agree with ZSS giong into freefall after upB simply because she is already pretty sub par as far as recovery goes. And unlike the other tether based characters (ivy, pikman) she really doesn't have anything to get an opponent off the edge once they've decided to hog it. Upb allows for her to at least spam it as she falls in the hopes of taking the hogger with her.

Honestly I think ZSS is pretty balanced as is due to her combos, sub par recovery, low damage moves, and decent ko options. Even the paralyze moves are balanced due to the overall nerf they've received in the transition from vanilla brawl to B+.

 

[RyokoYaksa]

The only thing Zelda really needs right now is that angle change on her Usmash send removed, among other minor reversions.

 

[-Chad-]

Interesting...

Captain Falcon can d-air > Falcon punch Fox ,Falco, Falcon, and Snake. It's like they kept the same fast fallers from Melee and added Snake... Especially Falcon though, you can link falcon punch from like 85 to 115 on him. =O

Every other character doesn't have enough hitstun to link into it. (I don't think, for obvious reasons I didn't try any character that would seem floaty and light)

 

[N.A.G.A.C.E]

The only thing Zelda really needs right now is that angle change on her Usmash send removed, among other minor reversions.

i agree with the up-smash angle change since that was my major complaint. what are the other minor reversion you think she needs?

 

[kciD]

Zelda should be able to Fair or Bair (or both) twice in one short hop, one way or another. Faster recovery on the kicks, or make her short hop a little higher, or make her float a tad bit more.

MORE TOE SPAM

 

[Emerald CHA0S]

Umm... sorry, total n00b here. Slap me on the wrists if there's a better place to have put this...

But I'm trying out Brawl+ for the first time, I tried to download the GCT file and run it. But the codelist is too large. What do I do about that?

 

[GHNeko]

Use the autoupdater.

As for your issue, you seem to have forgotten the gameconfig.txt

 

[slimpyman]

overall complaints, Links-up b sucks you in and is balls to DI out of if caught from the front. (it may be nessecary because his recovery sucks anyway) Hit stun is way out of line on most moves. and DDD fsmash is lol

 

[zephyrnereus]

Also on pokemon subject anyone ever think abot making it so u could choice any mixture of two of the pokemon to play with i.e ivy, and charzard no squrt?

just curious, wasnt there gonna be a reverse pokemon switch code? like hold shield to choose the previous pokemon on the list? I remember there was a discussion about this a while ago but never seen the code...

 

[CloneHat]

overall complaints, Links-up b sucks you in and is balls to DI out of if caught from the front. (it may be nessecary because his recovery sucks anyway) Hit stun is way out of line on most moves. and DDD fsmash is lol

1. You're not meant to DI out of it. Don't get hit.

2. Hitstun is not specific for any moves, it's determined by damage and launch strength.

3. Jump.

 

[KOkingpin]

overall complaints, Links-up b sucks you in and is balls to DI out of if caught from the front. (it may be nessecary because his recovery sucks anyway) Hit stun is way out of line on most moves. and DDD fsmash is lol

I could see complaints about dedede fsmash, but link stuff? Link is still pretty trash and anything that is good about him he needs. They made up b link together better because if he hits you with it you shouldnt be able to punish him for it.

 

[SymphonicSage12]

To avoid dedede forward smash:

1. shield
2. jump.
3. spot dodge (not sure about this one) ?
um...jump, and aerial attack him before his horrendous lag is over.
4. jump and hit him with a projectile.
5. shield and roll over to him.

edit: also, Dedede down throw edit link is up: http://www.megaupload.com/?d=CHAMLRCG

 

[CloneHat]

Down throw edit?

What does it do and why is it better than the current one?

 

[SymphonicSage12]

I never necessarily said better, just different. I definitely prefer it.

It's main changes are it's angle, BKB, KBG, and weight dependent kb.

the BKB is 60, the KBG is 75, the weight dependent stuff is removed, and the angle is 70 degrees.

It now links into itself at very low percents (into mid percents for captain falcon, fox, and falco), and into aerials at higher percents. It pretty much can link into any aerial, but usually the best options are fair and nair (I prefer nair IMO). It isn't an infinite chaingrab because it actually has growth now, and IMO it has more diverse options.

No need to be so harsh, man. >.>

EDIT: Ryo, I agree. Link already has uair for vertical kills, and fair and nair and forward smash for horizontal kills. Not to mention up b for horizontal gimps.

 

[RyokoYaksa]

I'm all for Link's UpB linking better, but it doesn't need the huge KB buff it got, as well.

 

[CloneHat]

Sorry, didn't mean to sound harsh, I was just curious.

I will probably try that out sometime.