Brawl+ Project Hub: OP updated 4/28 w/expansion pack and why it is necessary

[leafgreen386]

K. If you're settling on removing the problem hitbox, then... don't. I guarantee you that there will be zero happy marth mains if you do this. I played with just making the hitbox terminate two frames earlier as has been suggested... there were numerous times performing FF fairs where the sword just went straight through them and clearly should have hit, but because the hitbox had already terminated, nothing happened. The hitbox doesn't even come close to matching the animation like this. Which tells me one thing: it's the animation that's the problem. Change his fair animation so that it doesn't hit as low and the problem should be fixed. Do not just take out the last two hitbox frames, though, because that's one of the most unpolished fixes you could possibly make to this move.

Also, on the topic of lucario uthrow... what does changing its element do? Isn't the scaling effect hardcoded into the move?

 

[Thunderhorse+]

K. If you're settling on removing the problem hitbox, then... don't. I guarantee you that there will be zero happy marth mains if you do this. I played with just making the hitbox terminate two frames earlier as has been suggested... there were numerous times performing FF fairs where the sword just went straight through them and clearly should have hit, but because the hitbox had already terminated, nothing happened. The hitbox doesn't even come close to matching the animation like this. Which tells me one thing: it's the animation that's the problem. Change his fair animation so that it doesn't hit as low and the problem should be fixed. Do not just take out the last two hitbox frames, though, because that's one of the most unpolished fixes you could possibly make to this move.

And JCaesar thought I was crazy...

But yeah, an animation change to fit the new hitboxes was definitely planned along with the hitbox changes. Otherwise I'd be much more vocal against having that change implemented than I was before. But since we're doing it, it's a moot point.

 

[The Cape]

Also, on the topic of lucario uthrow... what does changing its element do? Isn't the scaling effect hardcoded into the move?

Well it would never change KBs while it was Aura element. My guess is the Aura was coded basically:

If Lucario and if move has element aura then "Aura Formula"

Since his dash attack and D throw are not based on his Aura power (and they arent aura type) and Aura type attacks dont work on other characters this is my assumpton. After changing the U throw type from Aura to something else and the move operated like a normal throw this just confirmed my suspicion.

So basically it seems that Aura element + Lucario = aura formula.

If one of the two is missing then it doesnt relate.

 

[VietGeek]

leaf i think u drank the bad mulberry tea

btw i'm gonna make myself some ginseng tea now for real

 

[The Cape]

Marth's fair hitbox:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rOdkQG7Y1OI

About 7:50.

You can see the four frames of the hitboxes and you should also see that frame 6 is down and in front of Marth and 7 is below him (contrary to my original thoughts). These are the troublesome hitboxes for the FHDF.

Edit: The more I look at this, the more I feel that frame 6 is the problem hitbox (being the third one).

 

[VietGeek]

Well then isn't that kinda a problem? If you're gonna yank out 2 frames of a four frame hitbox duration that would kinda be ****ed up. <_<

I've actually been playing with Rarth that has no HB on frame 7, it's fairly (no punz) nice as it makes it so he's more vulnerable to below and fullhopped camping is still hampered quite a ways. Also fair loses valuable cross-up ease. Also need to note frame 6 is basically Rarth's only feasible tool against shorties. Man I love games with short people.

If we can't find a sensible way to compromise this then just cut off the last hitbox for now. Unfortunately this is more of a sensitive issue than it needs to be (drama is built into the very character lmao). Instead of preemptive attacks on Sir F-air, we should wait for Vex to **** everyone by playing Rarth the way he was meant to be played for more tournament results with Rarth.

 

[The Cape]

I just played a few matches with the no frame 6 and 7 hitboxes and the IASA reverted.

Makes Marth super easy mode, so silly.

The five frames off the IASA actually made it so his combos took skill to pull off, this just feels like cheating somehow since its so easy to do.

 

[Plum]

http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=9667229&postcount=188

Originally in Brawl+ jab up-b was an actual combo on everyone except Wario and Yoshi iirc. After that, the grounded up-b was given 1 more frame of startup to it in addition to the jab being nerfed just enough so that jab up-b no longer comboed anyone (still was an unblockable string on Olimar and Jiggs though but they could jump out), but also preserved his jab to d-tilt/d-smash/crossup u-tilt/turnaround u-tilt strings on most characters that he also had in vBrawl.

However, recently when the hitstun was reduced it f***ed up all of that and now his jab has less hitstun than it did in vBrawl, since the old finely tuned nerf was not adjusted to go with the hitstun change. I suggested proper numbers to work with the new hitstun along with an updated d-air to go with reduced hitstun but it was pretty much ignored completely, though the d-air change went through.

Everything on every single character in the game can be blocked now if they hold shield. Might as well just jab grab everytime instead of trying something creative and interesting. This is probably a big reason I don't find him as fun to play anymore.

How that went unnoticed is weird, but whatever. Add fixing Luigi's jab to the list of what needs to get done.
That's just bad if he lost his jab came.

I'm not going to bother discussing the rest of the post unless somebody else wants to. But the jab section really can't be ignored.

 

[VietGeek]

I just played a few matches with the no frame 6 and 7 hitboxes and the IASA reverted.

Makes Marth super easy mode, so silly.

The five frames off the IASA actually made it so his combos took skill to pull off, this just feels like cheating somehow since its so easy to do.

Keep frame 6, remove frame 7 and add +1 frame of endlag. Also a lot of the combos in this game...are like really easy. Rarth being able to combo almost effortlessly is...well expected. I play Marth/Roy in Melee and they are relatively straightforward characters in terms of technical labor. It's part of that type of character archetype (see Jin, Ky, Chun-Li, etc.).

Plus what was supposedly the problem is that FHDFair was too potent as a spacing tool. Remove frame 7 and you get rid of partly that problem as what was largely the issue is that done right only Marth's back was vulnerable during the zoning. Take away frame 7 and characters can at least time a counterattack under Marth (especially during his descent). Frame 6 is part of the wall, but frame 7 is the reinforced concrete (bad analogy as expected). Too bad taking away only frame 6 is not a feasible option.

Actually I'd prefer IASA on hit instead but unless we're re-voting over this issue again, this is the path we shall take. Of course, Veril ultimately decides things like this.

 

[Veril]

Some combos are easy. Marth's fair nerf wasn't implemented to make his fair combos harder iirc. Its a tradeoff for losing frame 6 and 7. I'd rather have EZ combo move than a walling move. Losing half of the hitbox and gaining a bunch of true combos.

It seems like a good compromise to me.

 

[VietGeek]

*shrug*

V---look below for free prizes---V

 

[Veril]

http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=9667229&postcount=188



How that went unnoticed is weird, but whatever. Add fixing Luigi's jab to the list of what needs to get done.
That's just bad if he lost his jab came.

I'm not going to bother discussing the rest of the post unless somebody else wants to. But the jab section really can't be ignored.

It didn't but... Luigi isn't special. This is the case with a lot of characters, who's jabs now don't combo into eachother at all %.

Its not a real problem UNLESS we single out Luigi for special treatment for his jab while ignoring say... Lucas and Ness. Luigi absolutely doesn't need a buff. I understand how Magus feels but this isn't something that only affects Luigi. Either we go through and do this with everyone who lost their true jab combos (and I don't even know all the 5.0 jab combos) or we don't do it at all. I'm heavily in favor of not messing with Jabs anymore.

 

[VietGeek]

btw easy thing to do with Rarth's fair is to go to GFX in the PSA subaction and change the sword glow termination action from timer 7 to timer 5.

it looks like rarth has a cleaver now. it's kinda cute and fitting imo.

*****es dont know about my ooair

also as assumed rarth can't even hit mk with a SHFF fair at all

 

[leafgreen386]

It didn't but... Luigi isn't special. This is the case with a lot of characters, who's jabs now don't combo into eachother at all %.

Its not a real problem UNLESS we single out Luigi for special treatment for his jab while ignoring say... Lucas and Ness. Luigi absolutely doesn't need a buff. I understand how Magus feels but this isn't something that only affects Luigi. Either we go through and do this with everyone who lost their true jab combos (and I don't even know all the 5.0 jab combos) or we don't do it at all. I'm heavily in favor of not messing with Jabs anymore.

Except that before the hitstun change, luigi was considered fine. I can just as easily say that luigi doesn't need the nerf. The same goes for every character that lost their jab combos. This is not a case of making big sweeping changes when you said you wouldn't make them. This is fixing problems created by a big sweeping change.

 

[Veril]

I did not consider 5.0 Luigi "fine". And we aren't redoing everyone's jab combos. I don't care what a character could do in 5.0. So many combos became strings because of the hitstun change, we can't hope to isolate all of them. If you think this is possible... prove it. Get a list of all the jab combos for all characters in 5.0 and we'll see which ones to port? There's no possible way to pull this off unless someone has literally a week of free time, an infinite supply of coffee and adderal and no other responsibilities (like you and those characters you were supposed to get changelists for). Even then we'd have to agree on how to change each jab, test it out, and hope we didn't miss anything while also justifying why we made so many unnecessary minor changes.

No. This isn't like a Sonic's jab situation where the move is fundamentally flawed, its just a situation where some combos became strings in the transition. It didn't make Luigi or anyone else non-viable. There is no actual problem here unless you do exactly what I don't want people to do, base changes off 5.0 instead of 6.0.

 

[Magus420]

This isn't about fixing something that was changed with the lowered hitstun. It's fixing an old change that we made to the move that should no longer even be there, as the lowered hitstun now accomplishes what the change was supposed to do already.

 

[Veril]

Its still buffing Luigi from 6.0.

F-throw off a grab at 0% now doesn't tumble until the 3rd throw, so instead of getting a single quick regrab for the purpose of baiting favorable DI on the next throw (DIing u-throw away sets set up a combo, and DIing f-throw in can set up a regrab or possible combo), they can't actually DI another f-throw anyway and ends up being an actual mini non-DIable CG on some/most characters. Increasing the BKB from 32->37 makes the throw tumble and be DIable earlier on like it was before.

Jab 1's KB was tweaked to be nerfed just enough for jab->up-b to not be an actual combo, while preserving his jab->d-tilt/u-tilt/d-smash to keep his jab mixup game from previous versions and vBrawl fresh and not centered mostly around only jab->grab. Increasing the KBG stat for the set KB from 94->97 brings back the small window on most characters to do these with good timing (you can't buffer them) and positioning.

I didn't think either of these were a problem at the time and I still don't. That CG isn't nearly good enough to require a fix and his loss of jab combos mirrors several other characters losing their jab combos. Whether there is another changed involved is irrelevant. Luigi doesn't need help. It is not the norm in 6.0 for jab combos to always be true combos. Luigi's limited options off a jab are nothing unusual, changing his jab to mirror 5.0 while leaving other characters untouched would be wrong.

 

[Magus420]

I remember something about fixing old poorly made changes being acceptable grounds for change? From there, is Luigi agreed as being OP with a properly functioning jab nerf, and if so are his jab strings being nerfed further than previously the best solution? Otherwise, fix the mistake and address what makes him OP in 6.0. or fix the mistake and leave him be if he is not OP. That is the way I see it.

 

[Yeroc]

also as assumed rarth can't even hit mk with a SHFF fair at all

I'll admit it's not exactly the same, but I've tried extensively against Jiggs and she can be hit by shff fair. It's very tight, maybe less than 2 or 3 frames to do it, but I would assume if you can hit Jiggs then MK and Kirby can be as well.

 

[VietGeek]

it looks like you have to delay by a few frames (not sure how many) on the apex before you can FF down for u to hit a grounded shorty.

however i understand that more ppl want SH double aerials back than the f-air set-up before, so as long as the majority is happy i don't really mind (especially since there are like 40 other characters to choose from).

Gonna predict it's gonna skew some match-ups. Marth:Olimar won't be in Marth's favor anymore (inb4 5ive: It's a great day for my C-stick today) and MK will be a legitimate hard counter to Marth if he plays it right.

I wasn't a big fan of the f-air nerf before but I could live with it. Now that I'm on the opposite side of the fence I can see why players were angry with changes like these.

I'll keep trying it though.

 

[Veril]

You can still hit him with a SHFF fair, I don't know what you are talking about. MK has always been a hard counter to Marth. I have yet to lose to a Marth+ with MK offline other than perhaps a few rare times in friendlies. Granted, the best I played in tournament so far was Yes!, but I ***** his Marth all over the place (and on Battlefield nonetheless ;p). Marth was the reason I picked up MK in vBrawl and a big reason I still use him.



Also, just so we are all clear on this. I am not willing to work with anyone I think will be pulling anything resembling the "Rarth Rebellion" or Bandit's up-smash war. If anything like that happens in the future the player will be booted from the B+ broom, if not the wbr itself (since that is up to Yeroc). This sort of thing has been tolerated in the past but will not be any longer. If you are upset with a change, voice that here, don't start your own personal riot.

 

[VietGeek]

oh wow the humorless wbr strikes

rarth rebellion was a meme anyway. im not even sure if any of those marth users still play brawl+ rofl. i thought this was understood (that it was pretty much a joke), apparently not

also i must be doing something wrong with SHFF fair then. If you remove frame 7 and 6 from the hitbox then a grounded shorty shouldn't be hit from the "optimal" SHFF fair. Add in the effect change and you'll see the "swipe" never reaches the ground.

And yeah I'm sure MK is already a hard counter, but I didn't want to seem like I was exaggerating.

I'm a scrub anyways but with 5ive gone Cape's more reliable Marth input is now gone, at least temporarily.

I mean Rarth users can just dashdance -> DB spam on shorties but are we absolutely sure this is the path we want to take?

cape i like watching u play abuse rarth for me and prove me wrong kthx

 

[Plum]

I know this goes against EVERYTHING Veril has stated... but I feel like it needs to be brought up.

If people don't remember the fix I proposed for airdodging out of tumble, it was basically this:
Airdodging is allowed while in tumble.
If you input an airdodge while your character is still in hitstun you are punished by being given another "X" frames of not being able to airdodge. As soon as you enter tumble you are able to airdodge as normal, assuming you did not try to airdodge while in hitstun.

NADT was put in GSH to force players to time an airdodge correctly, by "wiggling" out of tumble before airdodging. A lot of people thought this was great, as it made the combo/string game not so clear cut. Depending on how fast your opponent could react, strings could sometimes fail while other times you could do the same exact thing with success. It also put more emphasis on other options to get out of strings.

I loved NADT. I thought it did wonders for making the strings in the game need a little more thought. However it was pretty clear that a large portion of the community did not agree with that at all. They wanted to be able to tumble in airdodge still, but airdodge in tumble was clearly too powerful as is. So airdodges were nerfed. I don't like that fix compared to NADT.

Shanus posted in the P:M thread that he knew how you could actually code my idea into reality. My original idea forced you to perfectly time your airdodges to airdodge as soon as possible like NADT did, but still allowed you to airdodge directly out of tumble. I still think that this would be a great thing for this game. But the problem is that it is a big change to how the game is played, and its at a bad time for this to become possible. Stability is key in the next set which is why I am perfectly understanding if this goes nowhere. I would like to at least discuss it back here. Airdodges were nerfed, but it is still a viable strategy to escape combos by mindlessly mashing airdodge until hitstun ends.

 

[JCaesar]

For what it's worth, I support Plum's idea for a fail window for ADT (probably in vain, but meh). I don't think it would be that hard to adjust to as long as the punishment isn't too harsh, 20 frames max I'd say. All it does is reward good timing and game knowledge and encourage other options.

 

[Veril]

Airdodges were nerfed, but it is still a viable strategy to escape combos by mindlessly mashing airdodge until hitstun ends.

I like the extra frames of time where you can't airdodge. The fix worked really well imo as it does make spamming AD way less effective (those 5 frames are pretty significant), and it works out for me cause I can evaluate combo break options more easily by just calculating adv with airdodge as 5 higher.

Idk, I really like the current fix. While your idea is really cool... well, you already know what I'm going to say. Feel free to make a thread about it in the subforum here.

Oh, and stages, DISCUSS NOW!

These will be reduced in size: BF, FD, SV, YI, LM, PSI, etc
These will be unchanged from 6.0: WW, PSII

 

[GHNeko]

We're adding stages such as Luigi+, Summit+, NPC+, PTAD+, and others from the stage hacking thread, correct?

 

[Thunderhorse+]

From the testing of it I did with Cape on the new stages you mentioned:

Luigi+ and PTAD+ are great additions. I wish PTAD+ still had cars with less KB, but we can only do so much. Also PTAD+'s ceiling might be a bit high.

NPC+ is horrible. I cannot say enough bad things about this stage, so I probably won't start. I will go ahead and say that NPC+ is a horribly and fundamentally flawed stage (not meant to be a hit against the stage hackers. They did all that they could, but the stage design is still too obstructive to be saved, especially that **** boat).

Summit+ I haven't tried yet. I'll reserve my judgment on it till I try it.

 

[GHNeko]

Also, there was an unofficial Onett made by me and Yeroc a long time ago, with the side boundaries moved out, and the stage sped up to 150%.

I didn't push it enough, but the feedback from all who played it, was nothing but positive and regarded as a legit CP.

If I whipped up a .pac for it and posted it up, would it be considered to be added?

Also, the fixed version of PS1 with the shrunken fire-mode tree and shrunken rock-mode cliff with no ledges, is being considered too, right?

 

[Thunderhorse+]

Also, there was an unofficial Onett made by me and Yeroc a long time ago, with the side boundaries moved out, and the stage sped up to 150%.

I didn't push it enough, but the feedback from all who played it, was nothing but positive and regarded as a legit CP.

If I whipped up a .pac for it and posted it up, would it be considered to be added?

Also, the fixed version of PS1 with the shrunken fire-mode tree and shrunken rock-mode cliff with no ledges, is being considered too, right?

I'd like to try both of those stages. They seem pretty solid on paper.

I forgot to mention in my last post that I also tried out Pictochat+, which was also great. I didn't even mind Pictochat before when it had a few gay things in it. The + version of it just makes it lovely.

I'd like to mention that we did have a prospective start on a stagelist that the current WBR voted on way back when. With all these new stages popping up, perhaps now would be a good time to refine it with some of these newer stages replacing some of the more shaky stages like Skyworld+.


Singles Starters:
Battlefield
Final Destination
Smashville
Pokemon Stadium 2
Wario Ware

Doubles Starters:
Battlefield
Final Destination
Smashville
Pokemon Stadium 2
SSE Jungle

Singles CPs:
Brinstar
PS1 (Grass)
Delphino Plaza
Rainbow Cruise
Skyworld
Yoshi's Island
SSE Jungle

Teams CPs:
Delphino Plaza
Yoshi's Island Brawl
SkyWorld
PS1 Grass
Rainbow Cruise
Luigi's Mansion

 

[FrozenHobo]

we also have some more stages that are pretty much done, including YI:M+, PictoPlus (i'm still looking for bugs to fix, but its pretty much done), DP+ (need a fix for the stalling still), Temple+ (shadic fix), and GHZ+.

i'm also looking at finishing my BoE+ fix, but it needs a lot more work. similarly, i'm going to try shrinking summit+ vertically and see if it plays better.

edit: i'd like to see that onett fix. realy, anything to fix it would be great, though from the sound of it, it'd need to be a doubles stage.


also, we were going to look at a possible fix for mario kart.

 

[GHNeko]

We should also change the rules to increase the number of stage bans a player can make by 1.

It's only logical and defeats the issue of having too many CPs.

 

[Veril]

I would prefer to keep the ruleset having only 1 stage ban to avoid confusion. As you know I am fairly conservative when it comes to stagelists, but I also favor the existence of an experimental CP/Ban category.

OK, first off: Starters should not have effective "clone" CPs. That makes pictoplus a big issue unless it gets something to seriously distinguish it from FD.

Here's the starter list I favor and STRONGLY suggest be the standard.

Final D: with the fixed ledges and smaller boundaries
Smashville: with smaller boundaries
Battlefield: with smaller boundaries
PSII: <3
Warioware: keep the boundaries as they are currently

We should be sure that no CP stages have the same layout as any of these OR else segregate them into CP/Ban.

 

[Thunderhorse+]

Here's the starter list I favor and STRONGLY suggest be the standard.

Final D: with the fixed ledges and smaller boundaries
Smashville: with smaller boundaries
Battlefield: with smaller boundaries
PSII: <3
Warioware: keep the boundaries as they are currently

We should be sure that no CP stages have the same layout as any of these OR else segregate them into CP/Ban.

<3 PSII. <3 Veril.

Completely agree.

 

[FrozenHobo]

have you played pictoplus? its really not a FD clone....

edit: i like that starter list.

 

[Thunderhorse+]

On the subject of CP stages, there was a fairly significant disagreement on whether to use Delphino Plaza or Halberd as a CP. Halberd was home to silly, potentially lethal obstacles in the crane and the bomb (and the laser if you have no idea how to SDI). Delphino was home to gay *** water, walk-offs, and potential wall infinites. Delphino did win out over Halberd (though Cape liked my idea of having Halberd as singles CP and Delphino as doubles CP).

But thinking on the new stages we have, I had an idea: why not forget both and use PTAD+?

PTAD+, Halberd, and DP are all moving stages that periodically stop, have differing platform layout depending on where the stage is, and are all ideal places for 'sharking' (the main strategic value in all of those stages). However, it has none of what makes Halberd or DP bad - without the cars, there are no potential death-inducing obstacles, and you never have to deal with walk-offs, walls, or water. And it's a good size to be both a doubles and singles stage.

I imagine everyone who'd like DP would enjoy it, and everyone who'd like Halberd would enjoy it as well.

Plus...I mean come on. Mute City remix is too good.

 

[GHNeko]

I would prefer to keep the ruleset having only 1 stage ban to avoid confusion. As you know I am fairly conservative when it comes to stagelists, but I also favor the existence of an experimental CP/Ban category.

I fail to see how increasing stage bans to 2 only during loser counter picks, will cause confusion. Maybe I'm giving too much credit to the user base.

However, that stage list is solid, and I support it despite my bias against FD.

 

[lord karn]

That's a really good starter list. I approve.

 

[Veril]

So, I'm looking to decrease the stage boundaries of Mansion to have KO% equivalent to PSII's. How much smaller should Yoshi's island be. I don't think KOs should get much later than they are on PSII except on SSE:J (which imo should be banned in singles).


also: http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=9720960&postcount=350

why?

 

[GHNeko]

I think Yoshi's Island should have similar boundaries, maybe a bit larger, to PSIIs due to Randall Jr and Auto-Ledge Cancel ledges.

 

[JCaesar]

Singles Starters:
Battlefield
Final Destination
Smashville
Pokemon Stadium 2
Wario Ware

Doubles Starters:
Battlefield
Final Destination
Smashville
Pokemon Stadium 2
SSE Jungle

I agree with this for the starter stages, with all the suggested adjustments. The CPs will have to wait till I get a chance to play extensively on the new stages.

also: http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=9720960&postcount=350

why?

I give up on Canada.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D7UKllR0Edo