Veril
Frame Savant
please stop spamming this thread. I actually have to read through your crap and its really annoying. This is absolutely not a social!
-
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Brawl+ Project Hub: OP updated 4/28 w/expansion pack and why it is necessary
- Thread starter Veril
- Start date
My proposed minor fixes to these otherwise functional stages (for now):
SSE: Jungle (Download Link: http://www.mediafire.com/?nkt23ahuqm0)
What it does:
- Fixes Olimar/Lucario/Ice Climber FS coordinates; fixes Pokemon Trainer coordinates:
Rumble Falls+ (Download Link: http://www.mediafire.com/?jyje1htwtww)
What it does:
- Fixes Pokemon Trainer Z-Axis to be on bridge. Hopefully fixes the path limit movement too (hopefully PT doesn't try to walk off the stage).
maybe something for luigi's mansion+ soon
and err...something else with the level freezer code probably
SSE: Jungle (Download Link: http://www.mediafire.com/?nkt23ahuqm0)
What it does:
- Fixes Olimar/Lucario/Ice Climber FS coordinates; fixes Pokemon Trainer coordinates:
No longer does this happen:
Rumble Falls+ (Download Link: http://www.mediafire.com/?jyje1htwtww)
What it does:
- Fixes Pokemon Trainer Z-Axis to be on bridge. Hopefully fixes the path limit movement too (hopefully PT doesn't try to walk off the stage).
maybe something for luigi's mansion+ soon
and err...something else with the level freezer code probably
JCaesar
Smash Hero
Does the SSE Jungle fix let Olimar pull pikmin at full speed?
MK26
Smash Master
what about luigi's mansion+?
Not that I know of. Doesn't this happen on normal Temple too?
I didn't mean the stage mod LM+, I meant Luigi's in Brawl+. Sorry for being unclear.
It's nothing really; just trying to see if I can get the effects of the 1/2 slowdown of Luigi's without...you know...slowing the entire stage and all that it does down.
Also I think I found the values for the pillars' HP. Seems each pair has the same max HP.
JCaesar
Smash Hero
I honestly don't know. I've never played Oli on Temple. I just know that he pulls pikmin much slower than normal on SSE Jungle.
MK26
Smash Master
k viet
but in my mind, sse jungle's not even worth working on...i just dont like it, it seems very campy, and since we can edid the stages that come with the game i think we should focus on them first
thats just me tho
in other news, did we manage to completely butcher the stages in 7.0?
but in my mind, sse jungle's not even worth working on...i just dont like it, it seems very campy, and since we can edid the stages that come with the game i think we should focus on them first
thats just me tho
in other news, did we manage to completely butcher the stages in 7.0?
It's a doubles stage, and a **** good one as far as I'm concerned.
Singles, yeah its campy and not worth the effort.
Singles, yeah its campy and not worth the effort.
FrozenHobo
Smash Hero
ok, updates on stages from Herb3 (aka fine, i'll get the tourney data myself yo lazy ****s >_>):
RF+ ~ Best stage ever. i don't believe any more work needs to be done to this. the question remains should it be a neutral or a CP?
Summit+ ~ aside from aesthetic things (the center, which isn't entirely a problem anyway), the stage is ready for a definite position as a CP.
JJ+ ~ Some complaints from multiple people about klap trap still being a hazard on the stage. However, aside from this the stage plays fine and has gotten a very positive feedback from those who've tested it. I'll leave the choice up to a majority vote/discussion on what to do with klap trap, though i personally don't find it to be a major problem.
YI:M+ ~ Generally mixed opinions on the layout. general consensus being that the actual stage is way too small. IMO, this should be released as an optional stage, but not made a mandatory part of the B+ Stage lineup.
MK 1-2 ~ Untested by the community, but opinion of the stage was that it too was too small, needed ledges/constant plats, and regenerating blocks to make it interesting. unless these things can be fixed, i would have to say leave this as a development stage and focus on other ones for the time being.
PTAD+ ~ Everyone seemed to enjoy it, though there were some comments on it feeling lonely without the cars. this being said, i think the stage plays fine now and is easily a CP in its current form.
Distant Planet+ ~ was not tested. probably will be dropped/pushed back fro other stage developments.
NPC+ ~ No one likes the camera and the background is terribly distracting. perhaps moving it to another stage and loading it with, say, FD camera via .rel file could work (with the city in the back pushed further away/adjusted).
PictoPlus ~ ready for brawl+ CP.
75m (Beta) ~ one test. did not go well. however, the idea/layout was pretty well received for a doubles stage. until i can figure out how to remove just the plats near the top this could make a good stage for doubles only.
GHZ+ ~ good stage, definitely an improvement over the current one, but the box promotes way too much camping. more brainstorming needs to be done to decide how we want this particular stage to be unique and playable (removing the box is not an option).
Big Blue+ ~ very god responses. i believe i know how to fix the ledge issue as well, so perhaps with that + a slight slow down (at least get some recovery) it could work. more testing may be needed.
RF+ ~ Best stage ever. i don't believe any more work needs to be done to this. the question remains should it be a neutral or a CP?
Summit+ ~ aside from aesthetic things (the center, which isn't entirely a problem anyway), the stage is ready for a definite position as a CP.
JJ+ ~ Some complaints from multiple people about klap trap still being a hazard on the stage. However, aside from this the stage plays fine and has gotten a very positive feedback from those who've tested it. I'll leave the choice up to a majority vote/discussion on what to do with klap trap, though i personally don't find it to be a major problem.
YI:M+ ~ Generally mixed opinions on the layout. general consensus being that the actual stage is way too small. IMO, this should be released as an optional stage, but not made a mandatory part of the B+ Stage lineup.
MK 1-2 ~ Untested by the community, but opinion of the stage was that it too was too small, needed ledges/constant plats, and regenerating blocks to make it interesting. unless these things can be fixed, i would have to say leave this as a development stage and focus on other ones for the time being.
PTAD+ ~ Everyone seemed to enjoy it, though there were some comments on it feeling lonely without the cars. this being said, i think the stage plays fine now and is easily a CP in its current form.
Distant Planet+ ~ was not tested. probably will be dropped/pushed back fro other stage developments.
NPC+ ~ No one likes the camera and the background is terribly distracting. perhaps moving it to another stage and loading it with, say, FD camera via .rel file could work (with the city in the back pushed further away/adjusted).
PictoPlus ~ ready for brawl+ CP.
75m (Beta) ~ one test. did not go well. however, the idea/layout was pretty well received for a doubles stage. until i can figure out how to remove just the plats near the top this could make a good stage for doubles only.
GHZ+ ~ good stage, definitely an improvement over the current one, but the box promotes way too much camping. more brainstorming needs to be done to decide how we want this particular stage to be unique and playable (removing the box is not an option).
Big Blue+ ~ very god responses. i believe i know how to fix the ledge issue as well, so perhaps with that + a slight slow down (at least get some recovery) it could work. more testing may be needed.
I consider it to essentially be part of Brawl+ now. I believe it should be more polished, whether or not I myself like it isn't really important to me. ^_^
Hoping the changes make it into the Updater (*waves* at BionicSonic).
EDIT: Frozn may I (or we) see the Big Blue+? I wanna see how it has "evolved."
FrozenHobo
Smash Hero
jungle is a fine stage for doubles, which is why thats the only time its legal. if you're playing on it in 1v1s the of course its going to be a terrible stage. but with 4 people on the screen that **** is fun.
Veril
Frame Savant
could I get the most recent Japes+.
SSEJ in doubles... the anubis strat says hi!
SSEJ in doubles... the anubis strat says hi!
FrozenHobo
Smash Hero
there was word that PT was in the wrong place in the latest JJ+. give me a sec to make sure its ok.
FrozenHobo
Smash Hero
JJ+ w/ fixed PT: http://www.mediafire.com/download.php?yjwnymz31oj
RF+ w/ fixed PT (a la VietG): http://www.mediafire.com/download.php?ncz01kzyymj
Big Blue+:
Pac: http://www.mediafire.com/download.php?gichmmnmixj
Code:
this level freezer includes frozen castle siege.
RF+ w/ fixed PT (a la VietG): http://www.mediafire.com/download.php?ncz01kzyymj
Big Blue+:
Pac: http://www.mediafire.com/download.php?gichmmnmixj
Code:
Code:
The Roadway [Phantom Wings]
4A000000 90180F3A
38000000 FF000031
48000000 805B8ADC
DE000000 80008180
14000BD4 00000000
1400FFFF 00000000
4A100000 00000378
18000004 52000000
201D003C 00000000
E0000000 80008000
Level Freezer
42000000 90000000
0416A904 00000000
2A180F3A 00000017
2A180F3A 00000019
0416A904 3F000000
2A180F3A 00000005
0416A904 3F2AAAAB
2A180F3A 00000024
0416A904 BF800000
2A180F3A 00000014
2A180F3A 0000001C
2A180F3A 00000020
2A180F3A 00000007
2A180F3A 0000001F
0416A904 3FD99999
2A180F3A 00000031
0416A904 3F800000
E0000000 80008000Dan_X
Smash Lord
MK26, and ForzenHobo, has there been any progress on fixing the windmill in Pokemon Stadium? This would be epic win if it worked like it did in Melee. In addition, the ledges SUCK. A portion of the ledge acts as a ceiling. Can that be pass-through-able? -- it wasn't a problem in Melee.
I ask this because I played with some Melee players tonight who were concerned about this for P:M.
Also, the new stages look great. I'd be interested in trying them. Especially rumble falls. Though I haven't tried Summit, it does, as others have put it, look pretty cool.
No but seriously, I don't think the bottom should be ice. It's still different enough from Battlefield to merit a different experience without keeping the ice... ;P
Oh.. and is there ANY way we can BREAK apart Castle siege into separate stages while still keeping the original as is? It'd be really neat to have sep stages of them, especially the lava one. Also, is it possible to have stages transition to stages that they wouldn't normally transition to? Like, could we take out the lava portion and throw in FD? Obviously that's just an example. haha.
I ask this because I played with some Melee players tonight who were concerned about this for P:M.
Also, the new stages look great. I'd be interested in trying them. Especially rumble falls. Though I haven't tried Summit, it does, as others have put it, look pretty cool.
No but seriously, I don't think the bottom should be ice. It's still different enough from Battlefield to merit a different experience without keeping the ice... ;P
Oh.. and is there ANY way we can BREAK apart Castle siege into separate stages while still keeping the original as is? It'd be really neat to have sep stages of them, especially the lava one. Also, is it possible to have stages transition to stages that they wouldn't normally transition to? Like, could we take out the lava portion and throw in FD? Obviously that's just an example. haha.
Perfect Chaos already fixed that among the many other stages you may have thought to have *randomly* downloaded when you used the 7.0 Updater.
My summit+ pac is tilted sideways, like it's falling down the mountain. Is this correct?
FrozenHobo
Smash Hero
>_______>
what do you think?
1) make sure you have the level freezer code adjusted to work on the summit.
2) don't play the stage in training mode.
I deduced this as I was checking back on this topic. Ok, with the new camera pacs and all, that just leaves me with finally finishing the SSS. Time to crank out the gecko.
lord karn
Smash Master
Has anybody worked on making it so you can add buffering in training mode? It's really annoying having to use vs. mode to test things.
Also, this is kind of late, but I think SSE:J is a great doubles stage.
Also, this is kind of late, but I think SSE:J is a great doubles stage.
FrozenHobo
Smash Hero
i support this, if only for my private set.
Revven
FrankerZ
But does the handicap = buffer code overwrite the code that sets the buffer to whatever value is chosen?
MK26
Smash Master
D*MN, i got a good laugh out of that
Veril
Frame Savant
This is something I've wanted for a while.
Being forced to use a 0-buffer (whereas I use a 5-frame buffer) in training mode is really frustrating. I'm not familiar at all with the buffer code, otherwise I would already have made an alternate code for my personal use.
SSEJ is definitely not workable in singles. Its definitely a doubles only stage. Even then its huge size, combined with the general awesomeness of Lucario, makes a strategy that was good in vBrawl into a potential **** machine (the anubis strat, which took Atomsk and Lee Martin to Grand Finals at Pound 4's vBrawl doubles event!). That's my only big concern. We shall have to wait and see if I'm right on that one. Regardless, SSEJ cannot be legal for singles.
MK26
Smash Master
anubis being what? lee camping like a mofo while atomsk goes massive aggro?
JCaesar
Smash Hero
Other way around. The non-Lucario planks and life-tanks all match, while the Lucario fight 2v1 and gets crazy aura powers.
Only when handicap is on. Which is off automatically in training mode.
Its annoying to practice what I need to practice in versus.
I figure this should be brought up in here, but what do people feel about Castle Siege?
Personally, while I feel it is borderline counterpick in the current state (mostly because walkoffs are less effective in B+ then they are in vBrawl) I would always prefer a frozen stage on the first transformation.
I guess there's the perfect world scenario of skipping the second transformation, because that's the only real problem with the stage. If that's not possible, and it would be decided that the stage should just be frozen, then for the sake of having a totally unique yet very playable stage I would say it should definitely be frozen on the first part. The third part is still competitively fine, but the tilting doesn't do THAT much to distinguish it from any other flat stage with zero platforms aka FD.
Personally, while I feel it is borderline counterpick in the current state (mostly because walkoffs are less effective in B+ then they are in vBrawl) I would always prefer a frozen stage on the first transformation.
I guess there's the perfect world scenario of skipping the second transformation, because that's the only real problem with the stage. If that's not possible, and it would be decided that the stage should just be frozen, then for the sake of having a totally unique yet very playable stage I would say it should definitely be frozen on the first part. The third part is still competitively fine, but the tilting doesn't do THAT much to distinguish it from any other flat stage with zero platforms aka FD.
I enjoy Castle Siege. While I do not actively use it as I don't know how to abuse its attributes a lot. It's never a stage that I hate playing on.
The only thing I hate about it are the sequences between transformations.
That needs to be speed up by an amazing amount.
The only thing I hate about it are the sequences between transformations.
That needs to be speed up by an amazing amount.
Couldn't you put the stage file without any modifications onto the SD card to speed up the transformations like with Zelda/Sheik?
Should be able to. I'm actually thinking about doing that to Lylat as well.
Lylat has the most stupidest ledges. I avoid that stage with a passion. It's not even a stage that you CP to help you. Just a stage to CP to **** your opponent over. If it wasnt for the ledges, it'd be an amazing neutral.
JCaesar
Smash Hero
I'll repost what I posted in the public Brawl+ thread:
I know *gasp* JCaesar and Plum disagree on something
FrozenHobo
Smash Hero
ok, lets take a look at this, shall we? the proposed ideas for CS are to either add the pac files in to speed up stage transformation time, or to freeze the stage at its initial position to be used as a CP.
lets make this somewhat organized and have people list positives/negatives for both ideas. list format would be ideal, but if you feel the need to explain yourself, please do.
lets make this somewhat organized and have people list positives/negatives for both ideas. list format would be ideal, but if you feel the need to explain yourself, please do.
Cia
das kwl
!
...
I really don't know where to start. I just know that I'm furious right now and I can't even remember what set me off. I was talking to blind a few minutes ago and I just lost it. It was hitting me all at once how far from finished this game is and with this latest set, i feel like we only went backwards.. So, let's begin.
1. Bowser.
Bowser is like the biggest WTF ever. We are striving for balance, yet we give the biggest character the fastest, most-prioritizing moves ever.. How does that happen? Let me break this into smaller groups.
- Bair. Insanely powerful. comes out in 8 frames and can be done from the ledge with (invulnerability and) more than enough time for bowser to come back on stage. And because of the bairs launch angle, he can easily thwart good recoveries. About it's landing lag, I do know exact numbers, but I know it isn't much and it's not like it matters because If he bairs your shield you'll be well out of range to do anything meaningful. This move is atrociously OP. Solution: raise the launch angle and make it slower. No character should be a huge threat facing you, and facing away from you. and should the move fail, it deserves to be punished.
- Whirling Fortress. I see that the move was fixed up some what and it's a start, but I still feel like it's not enough. I'd say bring the damage down to 8. It comes out in 5 frames making it an amazing combo break move. Not only that but the speed makes it easy to spam, and it's an easy way to punish spaced attacks. Not only that but it's a very potent vertical kill move. It can easily survive on 8%
- DownB. =| This move is just really ********. As if the power wasn't insane enough, the shield damage is astronomical. It kills Jigglypuff as early as 42% and kills DK as early as 66% It doesn't hurt to mention that this can be done easily from armor crouch and if Bowser grounds you near the ledge, he can cover 3/4 of your get up options, the 4th option being to roll TOWARDS him. =|
Solution: Reduce knockback. Seriously, the move does at least 20 damage. It shouldn't be killing that early.
- FowardB - Waaay too strong. Air grabs should not be that strong. And the worst part is it's just as bad no matter which way you DI it. DI up, you die off the top. DI left/right, you go flying off the side. Solution: reduce knockback.
-----------
I have gripes with his other moves, but these changes should make him a lot less dumb. My biggest issue with the way Bowser is now is how easy it is for anyone to just play bowser once and instantly have a good character in their arsenal. I understand he was given a bunch of buffs to help fight the combo intensive chars, but Bowser is never getting combo'd because he's going blow for blow with the nimbles. It should be Big, Heavy, Powerful, long range, sluggish. Not Big, Heavy, Powerful, long range, fast. That's dumb. If bowser's going to have the speed, he should trade in some power.
2. Sonic.
Sonic has been given so much in plus, it's a wonder that Sonic mains play vBrawl at all. But this latest build.. is what set me off. (i remember now)
- Nair. This is critical because I think this is the worst thing to happen to B+ (next to that Dedede hammer thing <_<) The first question I want to ask is, who decided on this change? And why was there never a vote for this? We could have addressed it earlier and possibly avoided putting it out in the first place. First off.. I believe this Nair is stronger than Pikachu's (which is one of Pikachu's primary kill techniques) except.. Sonic has INSANE aerial mobility so he can literally put that Nair where ever he wants. He can combo into it from one of his roll attacks. He can gain running momentum and cross the shield with it (out of harm's way). I knew this move looked dumb when I first noticed it was different, but when I saw it knock Snake out of his recovery with it and kill him a painfully low percentage. (can't remember it, double digits tho) I had to know who did this. Solution: Revert back to the previous Nair fix. It was fine the way it was. If it isn't broken, why fix it?
- Usmash. Oh.My.God. At first I was alarmed when this killed my Jigglypuff at 85. But I soon learned that an uncharged Usmash can kill her as early as 71% I wanted to shoot myself. Seriously, how the hell did this get into circulation. Has anyone seen Sonic's running Usmash? It's clearly made for getting some easy chip damage. And it's safe. Does anyone remember the last multi-hit move that was a ridiculous vertical killer? I do. It was Zelda's Usmash. The same move that has been kicking our ***** here in the WBR.. has been reincarnated in Sonic. Only new and improved with running speed and it hits through platforms =D Solution: Revert back to previous fix. It had a moderate power boost and it was more likely to land all hits. THAT WAS FINE.
IMO, the best fixes for Sonic are to put him back to the way he was last set. Sonic has all the tools to be the evasive, campy, douchebag character he was intended to be. YOU DON'T COMBINE SPEED AND POWER. you just don't. (This is how you get melee fox, and Metaknight) I also think sonic's homing attack cancel might be a bit much because of how safe it is.. but i'm not going to start on that. The issue here now is I think we may have gone and spoiled another character community (like the zelda boards) and they are going to be pissed as hell when you guys decide he needs a nerf (and that day WILL come) Sonic is a GOOD character, albeit unpopular, good none the less. Truthfully, I think he's under played because he's one the few that truly requires skill and precision to be successful with. You can't just spam aerials and Smash attacks and expect to get wins. You have to work and people just don't want to do that when you can play someone easy like.. bowser, or Zelda.
And another thing, people are always, always, ALWAYS going to complain about how they feel their character isn't good enough, or their character is at the bottom.. or w/e. And the truth is, HALF OF THE CAST IS GOING TO BE AT THE BOTTOM. No matter how balanced the game gets, there are going to be characters/players who win more and that's how tier lists/rankings are made. We just have to tell people to live with it. My goal is to help make sure that all of the characters we have can compete with one another. No one character should be LEAGUES ahead of another.
Lastly. Sorry if I sound all high and mighty/ demanding. But I get really angry when I see blatant.. stupidity. In the past, I've always been right about these things and I think now is no different. There are so many things in this game that need to be fixed and I think those stood out the most to me. And please understand that I don't care it a character other than my main is good. I really don't. What I do care about is the amount of skill it requires for someone compete. A big part of balancing a game is making sure that Bowserloverx0x0 can't pick up the game and go even with Glick's Jiggs on day 1.
...
I really don't know where to start. I just know that I'm furious right now and I can't even remember what set me off. I was talking to blind a few minutes ago and I just lost it. It was hitting me all at once how far from finished this game is and with this latest set, i feel like we only went backwards.. So, let's begin.
1. Bowser.
Bowser is like the biggest WTF ever. We are striving for balance, yet we give the biggest character the fastest, most-prioritizing moves ever.. How does that happen? Let me break this into smaller groups.
- Bair. Insanely powerful. comes out in 8 frames and can be done from the ledge with (invulnerability and) more than enough time for bowser to come back on stage. And because of the bairs launch angle, he can easily thwart good recoveries. About it's landing lag, I do know exact numbers, but I know it isn't much and it's not like it matters because If he bairs your shield you'll be well out of range to do anything meaningful. This move is atrociously OP. Solution: raise the launch angle and make it slower. No character should be a huge threat facing you, and facing away from you. and should the move fail, it deserves to be punished.
- Whirling Fortress. I see that the move was fixed up some what and it's a start, but I still feel like it's not enough. I'd say bring the damage down to 8. It comes out in 5 frames making it an amazing combo break move. Not only that but the speed makes it easy to spam, and it's an easy way to punish spaced attacks. Not only that but it's a very potent vertical kill move. It can easily survive on 8%
- DownB. =| This move is just really ********. As if the power wasn't insane enough, the shield damage is astronomical. It kills Jigglypuff as early as 42% and kills DK as early as 66% It doesn't hurt to mention that this can be done easily from armor crouch and if Bowser grounds you near the ledge, he can cover 3/4 of your get up options, the 4th option being to roll TOWARDS him. =|
Solution: Reduce knockback. Seriously, the move does at least 20 damage. It shouldn't be killing that early.
- FowardB - Waaay too strong. Air grabs should not be that strong. And the worst part is it's just as bad no matter which way you DI it. DI up, you die off the top. DI left/right, you go flying off the side. Solution: reduce knockback.
-----------
I have gripes with his other moves, but these changes should make him a lot less dumb. My biggest issue with the way Bowser is now is how easy it is for anyone to just play bowser once and instantly have a good character in their arsenal. I understand he was given a bunch of buffs to help fight the combo intensive chars, but Bowser is never getting combo'd because he's going blow for blow with the nimbles. It should be Big, Heavy, Powerful, long range, sluggish. Not Big, Heavy, Powerful, long range, fast. That's dumb. If bowser's going to have the speed, he should trade in some power.
2. Sonic.
Sonic has been given so much in plus, it's a wonder that Sonic mains play vBrawl at all. But this latest build.. is what set me off. (i remember now)
- Nair. This is critical because I think this is the worst thing to happen to B+ (next to that Dedede hammer thing <_<) The first question I want to ask is, who decided on this change? And why was there never a vote for this? We could have addressed it earlier and possibly avoided putting it out in the first place. First off.. I believe this Nair is stronger than Pikachu's (which is one of Pikachu's primary kill techniques) except.. Sonic has INSANE aerial mobility so he can literally put that Nair where ever he wants. He can combo into it from one of his roll attacks. He can gain running momentum and cross the shield with it (out of harm's way). I knew this move looked dumb when I first noticed it was different, but when I saw it knock Snake out of his recovery with it and kill him a painfully low percentage. (can't remember it, double digits tho) I had to know who did this. Solution: Revert back to the previous Nair fix. It was fine the way it was. If it isn't broken, why fix it?
- Usmash. Oh.My.God. At first I was alarmed when this killed my Jigglypuff at 85. But I soon learned that an uncharged Usmash can kill her as early as 71% I wanted to shoot myself. Seriously, how the hell did this get into circulation. Has anyone seen Sonic's running Usmash? It's clearly made for getting some easy chip damage. And it's safe. Does anyone remember the last multi-hit move that was a ridiculous vertical killer? I do. It was Zelda's Usmash. The same move that has been kicking our ***** here in the WBR.. has been reincarnated in Sonic. Only new and improved with running speed and it hits through platforms =D Solution: Revert back to previous fix. It had a moderate power boost and it was more likely to land all hits. THAT WAS FINE.
IMO, the best fixes for Sonic are to put him back to the way he was last set. Sonic has all the tools to be the evasive, campy, douchebag character he was intended to be. YOU DON'T COMBINE SPEED AND POWER. you just don't. (This is how you get melee fox, and Metaknight) I also think sonic's homing attack cancel might be a bit much because of how safe it is.. but i'm not going to start on that. The issue here now is I think we may have gone and spoiled another character community (like the zelda boards) and they are going to be pissed as hell when you guys decide he needs a nerf (and that day WILL come) Sonic is a GOOD character, albeit unpopular, good none the less. Truthfully, I think he's under played because he's one the few that truly requires skill and precision to be successful with. You can't just spam aerials and Smash attacks and expect to get wins. You have to work and people just don't want to do that when you can play someone easy like.. bowser, or Zelda.
And another thing, people are always, always, ALWAYS going to complain about how they feel their character isn't good enough, or their character is at the bottom.. or w/e. And the truth is, HALF OF THE CAST IS GOING TO BE AT THE BOTTOM. No matter how balanced the game gets, there are going to be characters/players who win more and that's how tier lists/rankings are made. We just have to tell people to live with it. My goal is to help make sure that all of the characters we have can compete with one another. No one character should be LEAGUES ahead of another.
Lastly. Sorry if I sound all high and mighty/ demanding. But I get really angry when I see blatant.. stupidity. In the past, I've always been right about these things and I think now is no different. There are so many things in this game that need to be fixed and I think those stood out the most to me. And please understand that I don't care it a character other than my main is good. I really don't. What I do care about is the amount of skill it requires for someone compete. A big part of balancing a game is making sure that Bowserloverx0x0 can't pick up the game and go even with Glick's Jiggs on day 1.
JCaesar
Smash Hero
^ This is why I wish we had discussed things more and voted on all these changes rather than rushing out the set unnecessarily early.
lord karn
Smash Master
As for Bowser, I totally agree that he is really easy to play. However, I don't really think he is that good. He's viable, as everyone seems to be, but I think he's definitely one of the worse characters.
From what I've noticed fighting Bowser is just really annoying. He threatens a lot of space with his moves and you can't directly shield pressure him. However, you can attack his shield with spaced moves with a lot of characters and bait the upb. If he doesn't up b just run away again and reset. With CF, you can just space the second hit of the nair and then dash away. If he upbs, you punish it with grab. If he doesn't, you reset and just do it again. It's really easy to get that hit off on bowser's shield for most characters.
Bowser has terrible mobility and is huge and an easy target. I play Jiggs, GW, CF, Ganon, Sheik and Yoshi. I'm pretty sure all of those characters, except Ganon and maybe yoshi clearly have a positive matchup on Bowser. Maybe it's just the characters I play, but it seems to me that a lot of other characters would do well too.
I think it would be really silly to nerf Bowser. If you make him do less damage or kill later, you have to compensate it by making him be able to hit people easily. Bowser is so easy to avoid with most characters that he needs a really high pay out for each hit to be balanced.
As for Sonic, I know almost nothing about him, so I can't really comment from knowledge. The fact that his dash dance sucks seems like it would hold him back a lot, but maybe not.
From what I've noticed fighting Bowser is just really annoying. He threatens a lot of space with his moves and you can't directly shield pressure him. However, you can attack his shield with spaced moves with a lot of characters and bait the upb. If he doesn't up b just run away again and reset. With CF, you can just space the second hit of the nair and then dash away. If he upbs, you punish it with grab. If he doesn't, you reset and just do it again. It's really easy to get that hit off on bowser's shield for most characters.
Bowser has terrible mobility and is huge and an easy target. I play Jiggs, GW, CF, Ganon, Sheik and Yoshi. I'm pretty sure all of those characters, except Ganon and maybe yoshi clearly have a positive matchup on Bowser. Maybe it's just the characters I play, but it seems to me that a lot of other characters would do well too.
I think it would be really silly to nerf Bowser. If you make him do less damage or kill later, you have to compensate it by making him be able to hit people easily. Bowser is so easy to avoid with most characters that he needs a really high pay out for each hit to be balanced.
As for Sonic, I know almost nothing about him, so I can't really comment from knowledge. The fact that his dash dance sucks seems like it would hold him back a lot, but maybe not.
Cia
das kwl
^ what Bowsers do you play? You mentioned that Bowser "threatens a lot of space" which just makes him having all that power twice as dumb. Good Bowsers know their character's limitations and that the best way to play him effectively is to space with bowser's incredibly safe aerials. Not only that.. but Nair > Utilt > Utilt > Aerial is a ridiculous combo engine for character of his size and power build. From there, you're just one aerial from being off the stage and potentially dead.
Also, Glick and I have this double bowser team that pretty much dominated the best team in our region. (Guru+Blackanese) I really don't remember how we did it, I just remember throwing out a ton of aerials and it really just wasn't safe for them to move. So singles isn't the only place where he's easy and just an overall bad character design.
I agree that he's not the best in the game, but he CERTAINLY is not in the bottom. He has a few match ups that aren't in his favor (GaW, Sheik, CF come to mind) but being the "the best" in the game aren't the only reasons a character should be fix. Jigglypuff is considered to be at least top 3 by most people. But no one (in the WBR) has brought attention to anything that should be changed about her. As good as she his, no scrub is going to pick her up and be ready for tournament right away. Jigglypuff requires a decent amount of mastery to be effective with, where as bowser just gets away with flailing. This is almost exactly what happened with Dedede. Dedede got fixed and now he's fine, i know Bowser will be too
Also, Glick and I have this double bowser team that pretty much dominated the best team in our region. (Guru+Blackanese) I really don't remember how we did it, I just remember throwing out a ton of aerials and it really just wasn't safe for them to move. So singles isn't the only place where he's easy and just an overall bad character design.
I agree that he's not the best in the game, but he CERTAINLY is not in the bottom. He has a few match ups that aren't in his favor (GaW, Sheik, CF come to mind) but being the "the best" in the game aren't the only reasons a character should be fix. Jigglypuff is considered to be at least top 3 by most people. But no one (in the WBR) has brought attention to anything that should be changed about her. As good as she his, no scrub is going to pick her up and be ready for tournament right away. Jigglypuff requires a decent amount of mastery to be effective with, where as bowser just gets away with flailing. This is almost exactly what happened with Dedede. Dedede got fixed and now he's fine, i know Bowser will be too
Veril
Frame Savant
Well, VaNz gave me a lot to respond to, and I've already spoken with him over the phone.
Mostly I have to say that most of his complaints are not addressing changes from 6.0 to 7.0. I'll reply in detail later.
;p
Also: Jigglypuff did get nerfed, DIRECTLY and indirectly, from 6.0 to 7.0.
Mostly I have to say that most of his complaints are not addressing changes from 6.0 to 7.0. I'll reply in detail later.
;p
Also: Jigglypuff did get nerfed, DIRECTLY and indirectly, from 6.0 to 7.0.