Brawl+ - Official 5.0 RC1 Build is now online! (Re-Use Autoupdater, Snake bug fixed)

[Skip2MaLoo]

im up for no auto jabs.

 

[SymphonicSage12]

I just played pika some, and no auto jabs wouldn't be that bad. I usually get the trip within the first four...headbutts, you would call them?

So count me in for no auto jabs.

 

[kupo15]

On the topic of water... I'd like to see greatly reduced dgrav, but greatly increased ugrav. So you wouldn't fall as fast, but it'd be harder to rise, too. Also would be a bit more realistic.

That would be very interesting. I would love to see how this (or variations on this) would play out in a match.

auto jab (on miss) can be removed by simply changing the RA-Bit variable 22 i beleive.
just a small note to anyone whom this would appeal to
auto jab on connect is RA-Bit 16 i think also
and i think it would be safe
seeing how some games require u to mash a button as hard as you can. for mini games or whatever. i think it'll be safe

Great. Thanks for showing us how to fix it! :D

 

[Revven]

I already knew how to fix it. Someone told us a week or two ago. We've been planning on doing it for the next build lol.

 

[kupo15]

I already knew how to fix it. Someone told us a week or two ago. We've been planning on doing it for the next build lol.

Lol, Sweet! +)

 

[SymphonicSage12]

Rofl plus sign smilies

anyways, I'd support the water fixes and auto jab fixing.

[SARCASM] Is it taunt-canceling tiem nao?[/SARCASM]

 

[MK26]

@leaf: good. now put that half in, not the other half (ie NAT) that does contribute to clackiness.

@kupo: i find it hard to believe that the brawl disc, running to its full capacity, could not surpass the processing power of the Melee disc. vBrawl's competitiveness has nothing to do with the disc, but the code that is on it.

TL;DR: I hate NAT.

 

[kupo15]

@kupo: i find it hard to believe that the brawl disc, running to its full capacity, could not surpass the processing power of the Melee disc. vBrawl's competitiveness has nothing to do with the disc, but the code that is on it.

You just don't get it. Do you. You really don't. I'm not talking about the wii's ability to emulate melee. I am not talking about the Brawl disc that because its not a mini disc or whatever that it can't emulate melee. I am talking about "Brawl's physics Engine" and how BRAWL was programmed. The first thing you need to do is remove havoc's physics engine completely.

Melee did NOT use Havoc's physics engine because melee used MELEE"S PHYSICS ENGINE! As in, MELEE'S engine was built from scratch!!!!!!!! As in, Melee's physics engine didn't exist before melee and melee did NOT pick a commercial physics engine like Havoc's to use because they were lazy to build their own! As in, if Brawl/+ ever wants to feel like melee at all, Brawl would have to use MELEE's Physics Engine! Melee's physics engine was designed for the wacked out physics you see in Smash and Havoc's does not. Do you get it?

Altering the variables of the current physics engine (ie changing jump force and such) will do NOTHING to make anything feel as solid as melee's did just like cutting an apple doesn't make it less like an apple even though the slices may look like a banana. I'm not saying there is a hardware limitation, I am saying there is a software limitation to how good you can make it unless you do some extreme hacking that most likely will never happen to B+.

 

[MK26]

vBrawl's competitiveness has nothing to do with the disc, but the code that is on it.

I'm not saying there is a hardware limitation, I am saying there is a software limitation to how good you can make it unless you do some extreme hacking that most likely will never happen to B+.

Same thing?

Wait...you're saying that you can't port Melee's gameplay onto Brawl's engine and expect it to run the same. Then...why would Nintendo use a worse engine on Brawl than they did on Melee, especially if they could have just re-used the Melee engine? One would expect that the engine would have some advancements after 7 years...

Unless you're saying "Brawl's engine is different, so it is of my opinion that it is worse", rather than "Brawl's engine is different, and it has been statistically proven to be worse". Which one is it?

 

[Jiangjunizzy]

Same thing?

Wait...you're saying that you can't port Melee's gameplay onto Brawl's engine and expect it to run the same. Then...why would Nintendo use a worse engine on Brawl than they did on Melee, especially if they could have just re-used the Melee engine? One would expect that the engine would have some advancements after 7 years...

Unless you're saying "Brawl's engine is different, so it is of my opinion that it is worse", rather than "Brawl's engine is different, and it has been statistically proven to be worse". Which one is it?

mK26 you really don't know what you're talking about. you're arguing for the sake of arguing. the whole concept of game engines is totally past you as you don't seem to understand what kupo is talking about.

 

[kupo15]

Same thing?

Yes, but you contradicted yourself in that post.

Wait...you're saying that you can't port Melee's gameplay onto Brawl's engine and expect it to run the same.

As in, if we were to truly make this melee 2.0 to the "T" (wavedashing, hitstun, all the hitboxes and weights and jumps completely matched) no, they would not feel the same at all. Ever wonder why Brawl can't do real ledge teching or why the teching code was hard to make in the first place?

Then...why would Nintendo use a worse engine on Brawl than they did on Melee, especially if they could have just re-used the Melee engine? One would expect that the engine would have some advancements after 7 years...

Yes, that is the big question we are all asking ourselves since brawl was out. Why not just take melee, add some characters and stages and fix some things instead of taking a completely different Physics engine that isn't compatible. What Nintendo did to Brawl by using Havocs could just have easily been done with Melee's instead, the only difference is that one sucks and the other doesn't because it was made to fit like a glove to this franchise.

Unless you're saying "Brawl's engine is different, so it is of my opinion that it is worse", rather than "Brawl's engine is different, and it has been statistically proven to be worse". Which one is it?

Through all the hacking we've done, Brawl+ is proof enough that the physics engine is indeed worse. I don't know, lets hypothetically compare. I made a Mario platformer game. One game has Mario Physics Engine and was built from scratch and molded to fit my game. The other game is the exact same Mario platformer except I ripped the Physics engine from Barbie's Day at the mall Platforming game and just stuck it in there and released it worldwide. Which do you think has the better engine for my Mario platformer?

Mario>Barbie
Do the math!

(If you still don't get it, then you're out of luck. Ask someone else)

 

[MK26]

ok ok i get it. It's just that 'big question', as you put it, was really, really throwing me off.

Also, I'd just like to say that the edge game seems to have been rebuilt so that there is no need for ledgeteching...sweetspot right and your opponent will have to come down off the stage and hit you into a true walltech situation (ie hitting you toward the stage, not hitting you away from it and expecting you to use your magnet hands to attach yourself to the wall), yet if you screw up, you get hit off or miss the edge completely.

 

[Plum]

I've been hoping for no auto jabbing for a while, good to know a working fix for it will be in the next build that won't screw over jabs that practically need to be mashed as fast as possible for use (and not be screwed over by the code)

I would definitely be interested in more realistic water physics; realistic being the feel of playing in water with the grav fixes to it.

Spoiler

I miss Melee's engine

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

'scuse me for having no clue WTF you're talking about Kupo, but is Brawl+ Melee 2.0? It seems like you're making a big deal, over and over, about it not being that way.

 

[kupo15]

One of my weaknesses is not being able to condense what I say so...sorry >_<

'scuse me for having no clue WTF you're talking about Kupo, but is Brawl+ Melee 2.0? It seems like you're making a big deal, over and over, about it not being that way.

Melee 2.0 has a wide range of interpretations. In its literal meaning "2.0" means that it is an exact replica of melee. The game mechanics are identical and Melee characters are identical and the game feels exactly the same much like Majora's Mask felt like a true sequel to Ocarina of Time. This means the removal of things such as swimming, RAR, footstools, gliding ect and the addition of what brawl doesn't have such as Crouch canceling, rolling ledge occupancy, wavedashing, l canceling ect. When people hear the word "Melee 2.0," this is what I assume they are thinking when I hear bashing on it and not wanting it.

However, what I was just pointing out in the whole debate with MK26 is that even if we could replicate Melee in Brawl as our version of Brawl+, it still wouldn't be Melee 2.0 because the Physics engines are too different. This means that the literal meaning of the word "Melee 2.0" is impossible in Brawl's Engine because regardless of the mechanics and everything being there, it will feel nothing like Melee and it most likely won't act the same. You would probably see combos that didn't work before or escaping combos you shouldn't have been able to. As long as Brawl+ doesn't hack Melee's physics engine into Brawl, you will never feel the true sequel feeling like Majora's Mask. Majora's mask felt like a true sequel because it used the exact same engine of Ocarina of Time. It had the same exact glitches and was merely Ocarina with new levels and items and a new story.

That being said, there is no point in going for "Melee 2.0" in the literal sense because doing that will actually have a negative impact on the game instead of a positive one. Brawl+ is just one view of how Brawl could be better and everyone has their own ideas of how to reprogram this game.

As much as I would love to have a true Melee 2.0 instead of Vbrawl, its not possible as I stated above and I recognize that fact. This is where MY Melee 2.0 comes into play. Its not Melee 2.0 in the literal sense, it is my version of Brawl+ that I feel is the best for the game. Basically I try to look at the past two games, see what they did right and incorporate that into Brawl but doing so in a way that fits Brawl's engine and not trying to make something its not.

What people (I feel) try to ignore is the fact that Melee did a LOT of things right and is IMO the best and most perfected Smash game we have so far mechanic-wise. So naturally, I tend to want to pull a lot from melee (you'd be a fool not too) but not everything can be brought over. An example would be wavedashing. Wavedashing is something that I felt really enhanced Melee a lot and was great, but it does not work in Brawl so I continue to reject the idea of bringing that into the game. But the thing is, the air dodging in brawl sucks really bad to a point where I feel its just as detrimental as adding wavedashing, except in the other direction. So I try to suggest ideas how to emulate what the Melee air dodge system did in a way that fits brawl. My solution was that low gravity change during the air dodge.

Other than wavedashing, I can't think of any other mechanics at the moment that won't work the same way like wavedashing so just about everything else I feel should be included except for a few things that shouldn't be there such as ledge roll occupancy but that is just my personal opinion. Even if we borrow a lot from melee except a few things, yes they will act how they did in melee, but they naturally will feel a little different and in brawl's case, things will always feel easier and they will always feel like brawl despite coming from melee.

So after Brawl+ gets all of the fundamental game mechanics that works well in brawl from the past games, then its onto seeing what to do with the new stuff Brawl has to offer. Most if not all the new features have been made to make it more like Mario party, so very uncompetitive in its implementation but that doesn't mean we have to remove it. If I wanted a true Melee 2.0 I would have insisted to do so without good reasons. The only reason why I would want to remove something is if there is no way to make it better (aka footstools if we can't untie it from the jump button) But the other stuff like swimming, you can work with and fix it up to make it act more competitively and true to the original formula of Smash. You have probably read my ideas in shaping these new mechanics in that light.

So is Brawl+ Melee 2.0? In the literal sense definitely NOT but in the nonliteral sense, Yes to some and no to others. In my mind, Brawl+ is not Melee 2.0 in the unliteral sense of the word in its current build. It basically means that I feel the game could borrow more from melee to get some more foundation and solidity to the game and the current Brawl+ could also improve the new mechanics of Brawl as well. This is my opinion and everyone has their own opinion of what is best for the game that they are fighting for as well. I just tend to stick with what works in the past first and foremost which is why I get labeled as the guy wanting Melee 2.0 which in turn gets misinterpreted by so many because you can have a "Melee 2.0" without it being Melee 2.0 if that makes sense.

TL;DR

Melee 2.0 is a misnomer and it can never be achieved in the literal sense. When I refer to Melee 2.0, all that means is making the game as good in its own Brawl Engine as Melee was in its own Engine. I feel that Brawl+ is not at "Melee 2.0" status in its own engine yet in that its missing fundamental game mechanics from the past and its also missing out on improving the new game mechanics present which is what I'm trying to push for.


I hope that answered your question.

 

[camelot]

This has probably been brought up as an idea for water, but, what if it just acted as if the water wasn't there? It does this for Giga Bowser, he just falls through.

 

[GHNeko]

Because you;re completely removing the mechanic. :V

 

[WheelOfFish]

Kupo, don't take this the wrong way, because I honestly don't know the answer... and I'm too lazy to search for what you said, hahah. What's wrong with Brawl's air-dodge and how do you want to fix it?

 

[Alphatron]

Nintendo should have just made a game superior to melee, and if a fourth game comes out, I seriously hope that they put some real effort into doing so.

I don't want melee to become the Ocarina of Time to smash brothers. At all.

I don't care for auto jabbing, aside from the fact that its removal will disorient my friends a bit. A combination of kupo and leaf's idea on water mechanics sounds sweet though.

 

[GHNeko]

Nintendo should have just made a game superior to melee, and if a fourth game comes out, I seriously hope that they put some real effort into doing so.

.....

The only effort they'll put into is Aesthetics. Not competitiveness and balance.
​

 

[Marios_shadow]

Kupo, if even only one of your recent proposals see the light of day, I will be a very happy man.

I'm particularly excited to see how the water turns out, and auto-jabs have been an annoyance since launch day for me...

 

[B3Brawler]

Marth has too much dgrav so he can't edgegaurd off the stage and his only finishers are tippered Dairs and Smashes. He keeps getting worse and worse every build. Do the right thing and give him a sourspot spike or put him back to normal.

Also rolls could use a few more IASA frames, but ledge rollimg needs ALOT more

 

[GHNeko]

Keep Marth talk to marth thread B3Brawler. >_>

Also, you're using Bair, Nair, utilt and Up B wrong.

 

[camelot]

Hey guys, I worked on Ness in PSA and have a perfect Double-Jump Cancel for him. And with this method, he gets to keep his rising aerials as well.

Here's how it works. If you're not holding down the jump button (X or Y) when you use an aerial, he DJC's. Simple as that.

Want to use it?

 

[CountKaiser]

I do. I've been trying to make a djc for him for a few days. Gimme!

 

[camelot]

Ok, here's Ness's b+ .pac with DJC: http://www.mediafire.com/?zyzmymw0uny

Try it out, see how it feels.

By the way, using this method, you could put DJC on anybody. So if Yoshi mains want it, they can have it, too.

 

[Nybb]

Nintendo should have just made a game superior to melee, and if a fourth game comes out, I seriously hope that they put some real effort into doing so.

I don't want melee to become the Ocarina of Time to smash brothers. At all.

I don't care for auto jabbing, aside from the fact that its removal will disorient my friends a bit. A combination of kupo and leaf's idea on water mechanics sounds sweet though.

Whoa, hold on a second. Have you even played Majora's Mask? Obviously not, or you wouldn't have made such a terribly misguided statement.


Seriously though, no auto-jabbing that doesn't glitch out sounds awesome.

But I don't see what the fuss about water mechanics is all about. It affects such a tiny portion of the stages...it should be way low on the list of priorities. Not to mention it would totally destroy tether characters on Delfino. Plus it would allow Charizard to f-air underwater...wut? lol

The proposal for not allowing dodges to flow into dodges so well is something that I would vote should be tried out. It sounds like it would just make more sense. Although as somebody else said here (forgot to multiquote it), making every character have the same dodges is a little lame, with the whole reduction of character uniqueness thing.

 

[thesage]

<3 djc code. Even though I haven't tried it lmao.

On Charizard's fair being usable underwater, Ness' pk fire pillars on fludd/water gun

 

[timothyung]

After the no auto jab fix, when you connect the jab you can still hold the button right? If you hit A A(hold) the jab sequence should still come out.

 

[Jiangjunizzy]

After the no auto jab fix, when you connect the jab you can still hold the button right? If you hit A A(hold) the jab sequence should still come out.

so is that what makes fox do that? jesus. can we get rid of this? nothing makes me more angry than fox's chunli kicks.

 

[Alphatron]

.....

The only effort they'll put into is Aesthetics. Not competitiveness and balance.
​

Before you crush my sad hope in miracles, maybe this will change in a few years depending on who else is in charge.






Ah, who am I kidding? That will probably happen when I'm able to use Beedrill competitively.

 

[Alphatron]

DP due to post limit. Yeah, I've played Majora's Mask. It's my favorite Zelda game. What I meant by that is how many fans will look at OoT as the high point of the series, and that every zelda game afterwards is merely decent in comparison.

Does DJC work with holding up on the control stick too? Not everyone SHs with buttons.

 

[camelot]

You have to not be holding down X or Y in order to DJC. Holding up =/= X or Y.

Also, I realized I made a mistake with that .pac I posted, and the DJC there cancels horizontal momentum too. I've fixed it since, though.

 

[shanus]

You have to not be holding down X or Y in order to DJC. Holding up =/= X or Y.

Also, I realized I made a mistake with that .pac, and the DJC cancels horizontal momentum too. Fixed it now, though.

Is your link updated or no?

 

[camelot]

Is your link updated or no?

Now it is. http://www.mediafire.com/?hinh0ukndyu

Have you tried the first one?

 

[shanus]

Now it is. http://www.mediafire.com/?hinh0ukndyu

Have you tried the first one?

Not yet, I plan to test this out a bunch today. I'm actually cooking up a few attempts at ATs for B+, but none are guaranteed and still exploring.

One is JC+ which I've run into issues with. I'm allowing for transfer into a grab from the jump start animation, but I'm trying to make so that if you do a JC grab and whiff the grab, it adds on 20 frames of lag. I do this by setting RC-Bit 16 or 17 to false, and then in the catch animation, if it equal to false, it runs the same animation but with 20 more frames of endlag so that only a whiff should be effected. I need to somehow fix this.

Your DJC code is definitely gonna be explored. I'm actually borrowing it right now for a fun idea I had for footstools back when I was making a DJC code with CAM.

I'm also testing a Meteor cancellable footstool to combine with the option of cancellable footstools.

If anyone wants to help me test this stuff out, please come in the IRC.

 

[5ive]

If anyone wants to help me test this stuff out, please come in the IRC.

I'll help if someone unbans me <__>

 

[shanus]

I'll help if someone unbans me <__>

what is your IP address


edit: people said you were banned by spamserv, i removed the two bans placed by that

 

[Alphatron]

Too bad there aren't any X/Y buttons on the wii chuck. Looks like they'll be no DJC for me then.

Edit: If this at least works with the C button on the nunchuck, I'd be satisfied. I'd like it if it also worked with holding the control stick up because then I wouldn't need a third control scheme for characters I play.

 

[shanus]

Too bad there aren't any X/Y buttons on the wii chuck. Looks like they'll be no DJC for me then.

Edit: If this at least works with the C button on the nunchuck, I'd be satisfied. I'd like it if it also worked with holding the control stick up because then I wouldn't need a third control scheme for characters I play.

I will fix it to work by pressing up as well.