Brawl+ - Official 5.0 RC1 Build is now online! (Re-Use Autoupdater, Snake bug fixed)

[JCaesar]

I'm still skeptical on Pirate Airship or whatever being CP-worthy even after these fixes, but I'm willing to give it a try. The only way I see it working is if it's frozen and has no swimmable water.

I just went to a B+ tourney yesterday, and I really think that, at least for now, the ruleset should be 3-stock instead of 4-stock. Most of the matches actually took longer than an average brawl match takes. Now, I know that playing less campy is viable, and perhaps even preferable, but you have to realize that most of the people entering B+ are coming from brawl and don't really know what they are doing yet. As for now, B+ is gaining most of its following by being a side-tourney or run along with another event. It would be more feasible, I think, to lower the stock amount per match for now until B+ gains more recognition as game worthy of having its own tournies. The tourney I was at yesterday was way off schedule, and I think a lot of that was because a lot of B+ matches were lasting 5+ minutes.

In MD/VA, when B+ is a side tourney at a Brawl event, we typically use 3 stocks, but when it's Brawl+ only, I run it with 4 stocks. Part of the reason is that we have more time, and part is because when it's Brawl+ only, everyone there knows how to play and the matches don't take forever. Some characters are still campy as hell and make Brawl+ matches really drag out even with good players playing (grrr Thunderhorse) but for the most part, this system works out.

 

[thesage]

I think the TOs should just decide what the stock should be. I'd suggest doing 3 stock for earlier rounds and later matches use 4 stock.

 

[kupo15]

I thought the original idea was to make it so the water has altered gravity, not remove it, altogether...

Yea, that still should be the plan.

 

[RPGsFTW]

I would love for Ness to get DJCing back. DJC alone almost made me main swap my Melee main to Ness, for tournaments. <3

Also, the idea about the Air Pirate Ship, no water, frozen stage, would be awesome! Someone please texture the ship to look like the Delphinus, or another ship, from Skies of Arcadia!

 

[stingers]

pirate ship has a really nice platform setup so if you remove the water and freeze the stage it could be neutral tbqh

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

<huge post>

Ah, I see. Makes sense. Thanks.

I think that removing the water from Pirate Ship would remove the uniqueness of the level. And in this case, it seems like a bad idea...

What if we made water so that you slowly sunk through it while swimming? Like, same swimming animation, and if you jump out, you get your double jump back, but you slowly fall through it?

 

[SymphonicSage12]

Just to put this out there: My guide on setting up GCTs is done.

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=246272


Although it would probably just be better as a part of the Code Q&A OP....

 

[camelot]

Who has tried Ness's DJC cancel? And how do you like it?

Here's the link for those who haven't tried: http://www.mediafire.com/?hinh0ukndyu

Remember, you only DJC if you're not holding the jump button when you use an aerial.

And, Alphatron, I kind of made this with the Gamecube controller in mind... sorry

 

[iLink]

I like the DJC, can this be applied to yoshi and lucas?

 

[leafgreen386]

Pirate Ship doesn't need to be frozen and it doesn't need to be made into an "airship" either. It just needs the water mechanic adjusted to not be ********, and remove/weaken the bombs and catapult.

 

[stingers]

i thought this was a competitive project? LOL

pirate ship isn't a competitive stage with all this random ****

pirate ship would be a niceass stage if you froze it and removed the water...but...you guys do what you guys wanna do. but like...just as many tournies will have pirate ship legal with your changes as they do now (aka 0). just like big blue lmao

 

[SymphonicSage12]

not all stages have to be catered to tourney-***s.


>.> Pirate Ship is fun as it is.

/casual in me talking

 

[stingers]

this is a COMPETITIVE PROJECT

jesus christ why do you think they swapped out rumble falls (or whatever **** stage it is now) for wifi waiting room?

there are stages that aren't fit for competition so HOPEFULLY they can be changed to be competitive. some stages like big blue and 75m are just beyond hope so we dont bother with them. there are other stages however like Luigi's Mansion and Pirate Ship that can be salvaged but the WBR thinks its better if they continue to fail just as hard but in more creative ways then they did in vbrawl. its pretty silly but hey I'm not in charge so they can do what they want @.@

 

[Alphatron]

And, Alphatron, I kind of made this with the Gamecube controller in mind... sorry

It's alright. I've been playing brawl since release applying all ATs to the wiimote nunchuck, since that's the only controller I have. However, seeing as how others place decently in tourneys with controls aside from the GC, it kind of annoyed me how the other controllers were treated as nonexistant on this site(not counting wiimote on its side).

there are stages that aren't fit for competition so HOPEFULLY they can be changed to be competitive. some stages like big blue and 75m are just beyond hope so we dont bother with them. there are other stages however like Luigi's Mansion and Pirate Ship that can be salvaged but the WBR thinks its better if they continue to fail just as hard but in more creative ways then they did in vbrawl. its pretty silly but hey I'm not in charge so they can do what they want @.@

There are already a decent amount of competitive stages though. I'm all up for adding more, but it's not really needed especially if the stages we convert end up becoming nuetral instead of CP.

 

[JCaesar]

i thought this was a competitive project? LOL

pirate ship isn't a competitive stage with all this random ****

pirate ship would be a niceass stage if you froze it and removed the water...but...you guys do what you guys wanna do. but like...just as many tournies will have pirate ship legal with your changes as they do now (aka 0). just like big blue lmao

Probably true if it doesn't get frozen. I know it won't be legal in MD/VA.

 

[leafgreen386]

i thought this was a competitive project? LOL

pirate ship isn't a competitive stage with all this random ****

pirate ship would be a niceass stage if you froze it and removed the water...but...you guys do what you guys wanna do. but like...just as many tournies will have pirate ship legal with your changes as they do now (aka 0). just like big blue lmao

Pirate Ship's transformations:
1) King of Red Lions
2) Rock
3) Catapult
4) Bombs
5) Tornado

There's absolutely nothing wrong with the rock or the king of red lions. The catapult and bombs are the two really problematic ones, with the tornado only being "annoying" for some people, although it does have some actual strategic implementations. With revamped water mechanics and the bombs/catapult taken care of, this stage's problems would be taken care of and it would be a perfectly legit CP. Especially if it can be made such that it follows a predictable pattern. Currently, the only thing predictable about it is that the king of red lions is every other transformation.

 

[stingers]

okay leafgreen do what you want, you have the magenta name

but no tournies in NC will have it legal, not a chance lol

 

[Perfect Chaos]

Actually, stingers135, you have the magenta name.
Also...some people...so quick to judge. At least it worth a test (once we're able to change such things, that is).

 

[leafgreen386]

okay leafgreen do what you want, you have the magenta name

but no tournies in NC will have it legal, not a chance lol

Explain why. What makes the stage still bannable? I mean besides TO bias. You couldn't stall in the water anymore and the two main hazards in the level won't even be there anymore. What left could possibly make this stage banworthy?

Furthermore, just because I'm in the WBR, does not mean that my word is final. These are only my ideas of what to do with the stage. The whole rest of the WBR could easily turn them down.

 

[cAm8ooo]

@ stingers- How do you get a pinkish pranked name anyways?

@leaf- Agree that with those changes the map could be CP.

1. King of Red Lions- Perfectly fine
2. Rock- Perfectly fine
3/4 Bombs/catapult- Reduce knockback to make these not kill till very high percents. (or if possible just take out completely)
5. Tornado- Annoying but i find the flip on Frigate Orpheon (legal stage) and the bomb/claw at Halaberd (legal stage) to be much more annoying.


I still like the no-water airship idea the best but i doubt we would do it due to how hard it would be to implement.

 

[Thunderhorse+]

In MD/VA, when B+ is a side tourney at a Brawl event, we typically use 3 stocks, but when it's Brawl+ only, I run it with 4 stocks. Part of the reason is that we have more time, and part is because when it's Brawl+ only, everyone there knows how to play and the matches don't take forever. Some characters are still campy as hell and make Brawl+ matches really drag out even with good players playing (grrr Thunderhorse) but for the most part, this system works out.

Ironically, I'm a "jump into the ****" kinda Falco from what I hear . Imagine if I played like your everyday Falco.

Trust me, I could be a ton more campy if I really wanted to.

 

[stingers]

how would no-water airship be hard? there's already a no water on pirate ship code and a level freezer code. do you mean the texture hack? i'm sure there are a lot of texture hackers out there that'd love to do it @.@

the rock disrupts the flow of gameplay by changing the shape of the stage, the king of red lions is fine yeah nobody cares about that, and the tornado is great for stalling purposes and even more disruptive then the rock o.O any "strategical value" from the tornado is just laughable, nobody will plan a pirate ship CP around taking advantage of the tornado unless someone discovers some broken *** tactic with it...and then it should be removed anyway.

not to mention the glitch that lets you stay underneath the boat forever lmao stalling to the max

 

[leafgreen386]

how would no-water airship be hard? there's already a no water on pirate ship code and a level freezer code. do you mean the texture hack? i'm sure there are a lot of texture hackers out there that'd love to do it @.@

the rock disrupts the flow of gameplay by changing the shape of the stage, the king of red lions is fine yeah nobody cares about that, and the tornado is great for stalling purposes and even more disruptive then the rock o.O any "strategical value" from the tornado is just laughable, nobody will plan a pirate ship CP around taking advantage of the tornado unless someone discovers some broken *** tactic with it...and then it should be removed anyway.

By that logic pokemon stadium should've been banned in melee.

And the tornado does have strategic value. When the characters are super floaty like that, it's much easier to hit someone high, and to jump that high yourself, allowing you to get off aerials close to the blastline getting early kills.

not to mention the glitch that lets you stay underneath the boat forever lmao stalling to the max

This is news to me. Explain? That definitely sounds like something that needs to be removed.

 

[stingers]

i was looking for a video on youtube cuz i figured you'd ask but i cant find one

just go on the right side of the stage and pick a character like sonic or ZSS that has a move that sends them downwards (but anyone with a move that sends you anywhere would work, mk's directional cape works) and use it to send you under the water...you have to space it right and it's hard at first but if you get it you'll be stuck underneath the ship, but it won't spike you. and you'll never drown. it's so fun to piss people off with, LOL if the stage became legal tho i'd abuse the hell out of it

without water it wouldn't be possible though =) and it'd be a legit NEUTRAL =) which is what we should be striving for, to remove the bull**** and make stages fair =)

 

[Dark Sonic]

the rock disrupts the flow of gameplay by changing the shape of the stage

Even with the new shape there's still nothing really banworthy about it. It's certainly not neutral, but please tell me the super broken strategies you can perform on the rock transformation (note that almost all wall infinites are already gone/escapable with smash DI so...please tell me)

and the tornado is great for stalling purposes

remove the tornado transformation Stage doesn't have to be frozen for that (and the tornado transformation hardly lasts long enough to stall effectively. That's no different than the pokemon stadium transformations in melee really)

not to mention the glitch that lets you stay underneath the boat forever lmao stalling to the max

with water that doesn't bring you back up itself...that won't happen (the glitch involves you never running into the hitbox of the ship, so the water just brings you up to the bottom of the ship indefinitely. If the water doesn't bring you back up, this won't happen).


So um...please explain what makes the stage banworthy? I've played tournament matches on ****in' Pokefloats and it caused more problems than Pirate ship. And imo, even a frozen Pirate Ship without the water isn't neutral material <_< (though i wouldn't complain too much, Sonic can do some badass **** there )

 

[stingers]

if you pick jiggs and just jump up during the tornado transform and then use a ****load of pounds you will literally stay up there for like a minute. LOL "doesn't disrupt gameplay"

not to mention using the same method you do for the jump under the boat glitch, you can do the same thing to jump under the rock. YAY MORE STALLING

and you can actually jump through the rock and hit ppl then fall back down under the rock...soo much camping it's glorious

 

[Dark Sonic]

if you pick jiggs and just jump up during the tornado transform and then use a ****load of pounds you will literally stay up there for like a minute. LOL "doesn't disrupt gameplay"

And when the tornado transformation passes?

if you pick Jiggs you can just rising pound under the pokemon on Pokefloats. Heck if you pick Sonic you can homing attack stall underneath final destination. Let's ban FD <_< Stalling strategies exist on every level. And there's also the option of just removing the tornado transformation entirely, rather than freezing the level.

not to mention using the same method you do for the jump under the boat glitch, you can do the same thing to jump under the rock. YAY MORE STALLING

Water gone no longer raises characters...problem solved?

and you can actually jump through the rock and hit ppl then fall back down under the rock...soo much camping it's glorious

Water fixed, problem fixed. Learn2criticalthinking.

 

[Alphatron]

if you pick jiggs and just jump up during the tornado transform and then use a ****load of pounds you will literally stay up there for like a minute. LOL "doesn't disrupt gameplay"

not to mention using the same method you do for the jump under the boat glitch, you can do the same thing to jump under the rock. YAY MORE STALLING

and you can actually jump through the rock and hit ppl then fall back down under the rock...soo much camping it's glorious

With water mechanics changed, how would you get stuck under the rock anymore?

And everyone gets decreased ugrav during the tornado section. I've honestly done the Jiggs thing before against one of my irl friends for fun. The "stalling" resulted in Ganondorf simply jumping up after me and killing me with a uair at about 14% dmg.

 

[cAm8ooo]

Ness and lucas has some good strategies during the tornado using their up-b. The rock does not last that long, it couldn't possibly make it bannable itself.

My biggest ***** about the stage tho is the water and the bombs/catapult which we could feasibly fix/weaken.

 

[stingers]

when the tornado transformation passes AFAIK the game doesn't teleport you to the ground. O.O you're so far up it takes forever to come down. and with pound stalling yeah =)

LOL did you just mention homing attack stall? if you airdodge sonic kills himself XFD


and the new water is uh, decreased dgrav and increased ugrav right? i'm hella confused.

 

[Dark Sonic]

LOL did you just mention homing attack stall? if you airdodge sonic kills himself XFD

Homing attack stall works regardless of whether or not the opponent is invincible. When done correctly (at the peak of the homing attack's rise) it does not require a lock on, as the hitbox above Sonic comes in contact with the ceiling on the frame it is released. This has been known by Sonic players for MONTHS (pretty much ever since HA stalling was "debunked"). I could tell you the TRUE method for interrupting Sonic's HA stall, but it takes quite a long time to do anyway, and stalling is already banned (not really discrete, but I wouldn't push my luck with TOs on this one <_<)

Your plan to make me look like an idiot backfired <_<.

and the new water is uh, decreased dgrav and increased ugrav right? i'm hella confused.

Yes. This means that you will fall slower, and ascend slower as well. Jumps and momentum based up Bs won't take you as high. You WILL STILL FALL, and thus all under the boat/rock stalling problems are fixed.

 

[camelot]

I think you guys should use terms other than "dgrav" and "ugrav". Dgrav = terminal velocity, or your max speed when falling. Ugrav = actual gravity, or how fast you accelerate downward in the air.

 

[Dark Sonic]

well, we named them a long time ago when we had first started modifying them. Dgrav is called that because it affects a character's fall speed (terminal velocity). Ugrav was called that mostly because when we were messing with it we saw a large reduction of upwards momentum on up Bs and such. Yeah, I guess they should be renamed, considering nobody understands what we're talking about with these names anyway <_<

 

[leafgreen386]

I think you guys should use terms other than "dgrav" and "ugrav". Dgrav = terminal velocity, or your max speed when falling. Ugrav = actual gravity, or how fast you accelerate downward in the air.

well, we named them a long time ago when we had first started modifying them. Dgrav is called that because it affects a character's fall speed (terminal velocity). Ugrav was called that mostly because when we were messing with it we saw a large reduction of upwards momentum on up Bs and such. Yeah, I guess they should be renamed, considering nobody understands what we're talking about with these names anyway <_<

Except ugrav actually does only apply to upward velocity. If you edit a character's dgrav and their ugrav separately, only the dgrav will have an effect on how well they're combo'd. The terms aren't completely obsolete, yet. At least not as long as we're still using the physics code to do char physics instead of PSA.

 

[kupo15]

Pirate Ship doesn't need to be frozen and it doesn't need to be made into an "airship" either. It just needs the water mechanic adjusted to not be ********, and remove/weaken the bombs and catapult.

I quite agree. I like some transformations like the rock and any other transformations that prove disastrous can be removed completely.

this is a COMPETITIVE PROJECT

Lol at all the people I've seen trying to not change something that needs it because it ruins casual play

@ stingers- How do you get a pinkish pranked name anyways?

I am curious myself

I still like the no-water airship idea the best but i doubt we would do it due to how hard it would be to implement.

I'm sure there would be a way to have both. Maybe "Hold L" to get the Air ship (which we already have due to spunits code. Just needs some texturing)

and the new water is uh, decreased dgrav and increased ugrav right? i'm hella confused.

Dgrav stands for down gravity which comes into play the frame you move down from a jump. It also comes into play during hitstun because the game registers you as "falling up" (which doesn't matter for this i don't think unless it slows you down slightly in the water when you are spiked which would be pretty neat) So anytime you are falling, that is what dgrav controls. Ugrav is up gravity which applies to when you are jumping going up.

So when it means that swimming will be removed and the water decreases Dgrav and increases ugrav, that means that when you are falling through the water, you will fall slower and when you try to double jump in the water, you won't get as much height on your double jump because gravity is increased which weakens jumping power. So basically, the fix will turn Pirate Ship's water into Hanonbow's water with added gravity functionality so that way we aren't completely removing the uniqueness from the water. This prevents any form of stalling in the water because the water will act like thick air and how long can you stall for in the air off stage without renewing your jumps?

 

[jokey665]

I am curious myself

the pranked color/status comes from being pranked by a premium member (green name/mushroom icon). Premium members can prank people up to twice per month.

 

[iLink]

Wouldn't it make more sense to actually jump higher while in the water? Or are we just looking at this as a penalty for going in the water in the first place? I can see peach's second jump screwing her over here.

I imagined the water would act as if you just fell slower and raised slower.

 

[Dark Sonic]

I imagined the water would act as if you just fell slower and raised slower.

rising slower is what the upgrav will do. Not jumping as high is merely a side effect imo.

 

[cAm8ooo]

Wouldn't it make more sense to actually jump higher while in the water? Or are we just looking at this as a penalty for going in the water in the first place? I can see peach's second jump screwing her over here.

I imagined the water would act as if you just fell slower and raised slower.

The water should be a penalty, therefore you should jump lower. It doesnt really matter whether it makes sense or not because you could argue that you can neither jump in water nor in midair in the first place so how can we know which takes you higher? Though if i had to guess that if you COULD jump in midair and water i would say you could jump higher in the air because air is less resistant then water.

 

[Perfect Chaos]

Wouldn't it make more sense to actually jump higher while in the water?

Why would that make more sense? Why would water resistance cause someone to be able to jump higher?

Meh, ninja'd...

This prevents any form of stalling in the water because the water will act like thin air (with a twist)...

I prefer the term "thick air"...