Brawl+ - Official 5.0 RC1 Build is now online! (Re-Use Autoupdater, Snake bug fixed)

[weinzey]

but it's one of the few recoveries that has to be read. the only other's are sheik's (which is short and only has a wind effect at the end) and mk's dc (well, he's mk). everyone else commits himself to a certain direction once they start their recovery.

ps: forgot lucario, but he's rather gimpable after all.

 

[SymphonicSage12]

how is lucario gimpable?


also, ness and lucas don't have to commit themselves to a certain direction. Or Fox, Falco, or Wolf, of R.O.B, or Pit... >.>

 

[CountKaiser]

Lucario's upB does not have a hitbox, you can just edgehog and he'll fall to his doom.

 

[Plum]

how is lucario gimpable?


also, ness and lucas don't have to commit themselves to a certain direction. Or Fox, Falco, or Wolf, of R.O.B, or Pit... >.>

They don't have to commit to a certain direction, but you can actually see what direction they are traveling in as they recover. That's the huge difference that makes hitting Zelda a large deal of prediction even though other characters have the ability to move in any direction.

 

[weinzey]

^, that's what i meant.
ness/lucas and the spacies also commit themselves once u choose the direction, pit has to be very careful with his upb and rob is meant to have an excellent recovery (and u can see which direction he's going) unlike zelda, whose recovery is supposed to be her weakness.
also, 150% is quite a lot.

@plum's first post: u can't do that when she isn't at maximum distance.
let's say u trry to edgehog but she chooses the stage instead. but since she wasn't too far out she lands nearer to the middle and thus can't be punished on reaction.

 

[SymphonicSage12]

Well, um,???? I don't know what else to tell you.


And Lucario isn't that gimpable. Most of the time he can just extremespeed onto the stage, and since he know longer freefalls after it, he can instantaneously airdodge or attack out of it. Just don't go too far off the ledge.

 

[weinzey]

i know lucario isn't auto-gimped, he's just more gimpable than most character's with above average recoveries (distance-wise). also, this ain't about lucario
the point is, zelda is invulnerable once she starts to vanish, and the lag afterwards is meant to compensate for this.

 

[Alphatron]

Zelda's recovery isn't meant to be her weak point, it was just bad. Silly as this sounds, there is a difference.

Also, it isn't unpunishable nor is it the only recovery which needs to be read. The only predictable recoveries would have to be Olimar and Ivysuar.

 

[weinzey]

Zelda's recovery isn't meant to be her weak point, it was just bad. Silly as this sounds, there is a difference.

then what is meant to be her weak point in your opinion?
she has absurd killing power. her fsmash is pretty save on shields; her usmash shuts down many aerial approaches and dins fire forces most opponents to approach; she has a dsmash that's as fast as rob's but can kill and has a nasty angle; her dtilt is good at edgeguarding and also has other usus iirc; she has some nice low percent combos; she's floaty=doesnt get comboed badly; lightning kick is pretty easy to land with it's increased hibox; uair has a huge hitbox; nair is fast and disjointed; her grabs combo into kill moves (though that is gonna be changed afaik);

dont get me wrong, i dont think zelda is top10 (at least not without sheik), but i dont like that her bad recovery was buffed, which definatly was a weakness, since it was bad(=weakness per definition).

Also, it isn't unpunishable nor is it the only recovery which needs to be read. The only predictable recoveries would have to be Olimar and Ivysuar.

ur telling me that falco aint recovering predictably? that's just bs. just because he can mix up a little doesnt mean he aint predictable...

 

[Sterowent]

zelda's weakness is in her weight + size, since she's fairly tall and, while floaty, is still easy to kill.
zelda can't approach either, and, while din's works on a few characters, most don't have a problem with it since it's a) easy to dodge, b) worse than most other projectiles (in a firefight), and c) leaves zelda open to average and faster characters alike if the timing is off in any way.

basically, zelda is a punishing and spacing character. she's reliant on her opponents doing the approaches most of the time and her walls of hitboxes. once you get past them, she's easy. having a slick recovery only adds to her cat and mouse game, rewarding the opponent well whenever she is 'caught'. her recovery would be just like everything else she does, in a sense.

 

[Alphatron]

Recoveries need to be read if the one recovering has at least more than one option. Predictable as something may be, you still have to read it. If you grab the edge against Lucario and he curves around you and lands on the stage, then you failed to read his recovery correctly. Yeah, Falco is pretty predictable, but at least there isn't only one way for him to recover.

Once you know the distance on FW, there really shouldn't be any problem. Unlike Sheik and MK, she can't change direction during FW.

 

[OmniOstrich]

Zelda has really terrible movement.

 

[Noltron]

I have a suggestion for you next brawl+ update... You know how in time matches, when you get hit once, you cant self destruct anymore for that life? (as in the other player gets a point for it, even if you purposefully just jump off a cliff?) Well, in order to make time matches less broken, just make it so that the self destructs don't count as a kill (instead of a sd) even if you get hit once.

 

[grim mouser]

^ That has always bugged me, too.

 

[RyokoYaksa]

Who plays time matches...? Anyway, being able to deny kills by purposely SD'ing is more broken than that mechanic. No one's making you SD like a nub to give them points for it.

Anyway, if you're playing a slow/not-so-mobile character, you're not going to be able to catch Zelda's Up+B much. If you play a fast character or one with a lot of range, you will. Funny how that works.

In either case, her Up+B is actually easy to read if you fully understand how it works and is punishable aren't trying to punish it online. It's not an Up+B she ever wants to do if she can help it because it has a lot more risks tied to it than you think. Aggressive, offstage edgeguards can be very mean to it due to its long start up.

Zelda herself has plenty of weaknesses. She's just not a character you can expect to charge in blindly against and do well.

For those who are curious, her Usmash is -18 on block. Stop *****ing about it.

 

[shanus]

livestreaming B+ with fox changes: http://www.justin.tv/shanus19/old

 

[MK26]

why are we buffing a top tier (EDIT: read: top tier by general consensus) character? The only way i can see a jc shine being balanced is if you got rid of its startup invincibility via PSA.

 

[camelot]

What was changed on Fox?

 

[Revven]

why are we buffing a top tier character?

You don't understand, shanus nerfed the Dair to get rid of Dair > Usmash so the only way you can get that combo is if you do Dair > JC Shine > Usmash. It gets rid of the feeling of "autocombo" and EZ mode with Fox by adding some tech skill to him ( (which is what everyone was complaining about SEVERAL PAGES AGO) while nerfing a potent KO combo that took no skill to land. According shanus, this also makes Fox take more skill to use as JC Shine > Usmash differs among characters.

 

[grim mouser]

It really does. IDK about the newest version, but the version I tested required some serious practice. You need to be really quick to consistently pull off the JC -> u-smash. D-air -> JC shine -> u-smash is even harder.

Which makes me ask- is the streaming a test of the newest shine, or the old one (6-frame JC window)?

 

[dabridge]

Wait, then does Fox has his JC shine back from Melee? Or has he always had it? I haven't been able to from what I remember.

(can't see the video because of dialup, someone tell me what it is)

 

[SymphonicSage12]

this guy is putting his own codes in so fox can JC shine.

 

[Revven]

Which makes me ask- is the streaming a test of the newest shine, or the old one (6-frame JC window)?

It's the newer one shanus is testing in the stream.

 

[PKNintendo]

All this talk about Zeldas recovery makes me hungry.


Okay not really, but enough about her. Lets talk about...
eh I got nothing.

 

[Yingyay]

Phantom wings released PSA for those who dont know yet.

GET IT NA!!O

 

[PKNintendo]

Gotcha. Thanks alot my good man.

 

[leafgreen386]

Where?

Hehe... I cant seem to find it.

http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=8019039&postcount=349

 

[Roxas215]

So project SA will help yall with the editing of chars right?

 

[timothyung]

From what I see, we can use PSA to edit hitbox properties (BKB, KBG, Size, Angle), edit the sound and graphical effects, or change moves functions entirely of course. I suggest giving characters their victory poses and giving fancy changes to moves (Snake's ftilt and utilt having GFX for example... or CF yelling YESZ when hitting with Knee). Of course these things are low priority

EDIT:
Oh I forgot the character physics... Things like air speed and acceleration and deceleration, ledge/wall/short/full/second jump heights and momentum, walk/dash speed and acceleration and deceleration... can all be edited

 

[Skip2MaLoo]

hi, I would just like to say that brawl+ is fun. me and my friends enjoy playing it. thank you for such a cool game!!!!1111eleven

 

[Demacrez]

From what I see, we can use PSA to edit hitbox properties (BKB, KBG, Size, Angle), edit the sound and graphical effects, or change moves functions entirely of course. I suggest giving characters their victory poses and giving fancy changes to moves (Snake's ftilt and utilt having GFX for example... or CF yelling YESZ when hitting with Knee). Of course these things are low priority

EDIT:
Oh I forgot the character physics... Things like air speed and acceleration and deceleration, ledge/wall/short/full/second jump heights and momentum, walk/dash speed and acceleration and deceleration... can all be edited

Does that mean you can get rid of that stupid mechanic Wall Tiring? I found it stupid that you can't keep wall leaping and you'll eventually just keep falling.

 

[Perfect Chaos]

Getting rid of the wall jump height deterioration is a stupid idea. Most of the time, it happens slow enough that it wouldn't make a difference at all. The only time that it would matter is if you use it to stall. So having the deterioration actually helps, by preventing an infinite stall tactic.

 

[GHNeko]

I just want to fix Wall jumping so you can jump from any point of a wall on stages like WW and YI which limit you to only in the center of the stage. <_>
It ****ing destroy's recovery potential when someone is perfectly able to wall jump but because they missed a "sweetspot" for wall jumping, they can no longer recover. <_<

 

[Perfect Chaos]

Yeah, not being able to wall jump when you're in the bubble/magnifying glass thing is pretty dumb. Weird things happen when you're off camera like that (like if you hold up while using up-b with certain characters while down low on WW, you won't go anywhere).

 

[Alphatron]

Lightning element on Weegee's fsmash please. Although I am looking forward to the new engine.

 

[GHNeko]

I just want stupid **** fixed before gold, like teh wall jumping and crawling, as the crawl-dash mechanic doesnt work properly when doing it to the left. .__.

And other stupid **** like that dead frame for a normal jump where you can't even buffer a move.

I get that frame more times than I SD with Marth, and I have a decent size buffer too. 60-80 buffer and I still feel that dead frame.

 

[Demacrez]

I just want stupid **** fixed before gold, like teh wall jumping and crawling, as the crawl-dash mechanic doesnt work properly when doing it to the left. .__.

And other stupid **** like that dead frame for a normal jump where you can't even buffer a move.

I get that frame more times than I SD with Marth, and I have a decent size buffer too. 60-80 buffer and I still feel that dead frame.

60-80? Really? I usually perform at 50 with Marth.

20 if I'm Link. XD

 

[GHNeko]

I like my buffer. >_>

Get of my back. :V

 

[grim mouser]

I use 40 for Marth, as it's the lowest that allows me to consistently SH double f-air.

20 for everyone else.

 

[Demacrez]

Eh, TL gets similar treatment with Marth but Metaknight...

XD He gets 90.