• Welcome to Smashboards, the world's largest Super Smash Brothers community! Over 250,000 Smash Bros. fans from around the world have come to discuss these great games in over 19 million posts!

    You are currently viewing our boards as a visitor. Click here to sign up right now and start on your path in the Smash community!

Brawl+ - Official 5.0 RC1 Build is now online! (Re-Use Autoupdater, Snake bug fixed)

Status
Not open for further replies.

RPGsFTW

Smash Ace
Joined
Nov 8, 2007
Messages
754
You can read what has been done to Yoshi so far on brawlplus.net, as far as recently goes his Usmash kills earlier, Down B kills earlier, Bthrow has a certain change and I think Uthrow does too. Dthrow wasn't touched yet (I say yet because we might).

MK's Shuttle Loop was already nerfed, go read the changelist on brawlplus.net and you'll see it has already been nerfed and now WITH DI you shouldn't die from it until at least a high % (real high mind you). MK already got a recent nerf to his Dthrow too (it's now harder for him to do follow-ups from it so it's not "easy pass" techchases).
I knew some things related to the changelist, but not much. I did know about the Shuttle Loop nerf though.

Hopefully when you guys get to Yoshi you'll do something to his Dthrow. It doesn't suck or anything, but I think that it deserves more damage as its simplist form of upgrade.

And MK's transcendent priority "balanced" out by a little less range/KB/damage is probably the only thing I can think of that can be done to MK. He isn't the strongest character, but killing with his d-air AND Shuttle Loop are still really easy to do.
 

GHNeko

Sega Stockholm Syndrome.
Joined
Aug 13, 2007
Messages
20,009
Location
テキサス、アメリカ
NNID
GHNeko
Correction. Mindless shuttle loop is easy to do, but MK has to commit to a shuttle loop. So by avoiding the initial hitbox, the rest of the move is pretty much telegraphed to you. :/

Good DI > Shuttle Loop, and Glide Canceling to Dsmash really isnt that bad imo.

If you guys think Glide Cancel to dsmash is so horrible, reduce the shield stun on gair or something, thoug considering MK has even match ups for sure, and some disadvantaged stages, he shouldnt pose too much of a problem.

I'd rather wait to see what he can do in the future before nerfing him again.
 

Sterowent

Smash Ace
Joined
Mar 10, 2008
Messages
648
Location
Southgate, MI
hmm, i see. that's too bad.

hell, i'd be for taking away that TP then...if it creating some sort of advantage for anyone without a sword/zair/etc.
other than clanking, i have no idea what could keep MK feeling the same but nerfing him as well. maybe more specific hitstun? that'd feel like *** though for MK mainers.
1) remove the TP anyway? marth matchup goes to hell.
2) less potent B moves? his aerials/tilts would still be the problem they are now.
3) less range? that might work, but how fun he'd be if he couldn't combo would be under question (by me, so subjective?)
4) could also make some of his multi-hit moves last longer, possibly. if he misses, bigger window to punish with, but he's still on the attack. he's basically just more committed to his decisions.
5) less mobility? maybe if his run speed were the same (or faster), but less momentum was added, he'd have some sorta...SHFFL game, but less aerial dominance and gimp potential (from far away from stage).

his kill power's basically drained now, though some do argue his upB killing shouldn't happen at any point (maybe just a bit later).


he's just a well-armed character with strong tools appliable to many situations many characters end up in. i like both 4 and 5, but i'm the author.
 

GHNeko

Sega Stockholm Syndrome.
Joined
Aug 13, 2007
Messages
20,009
Location
テキサス、アメリカ
NNID
GHNeko
MK has **** aerial momentum. lmao.

And I dont know how people are complaining about the tornado. The lag is sooo much. The second tornado is blocked, MK gets punished because everyone with decent speed can catch up to him the second his hitbox moves away from your shield as the nado is a low damage, multi hit move, so the shield stun is virtually null after he moves away.

His general B move arsenal is blah as it is as the shuttle loop fails against good DI unless its a stage spike or a gimp. Nado's risk is alot higher due to low shield stun per hit and landing lag, and even a successful nado doesnt lead into much due to landing lag. Giga Drill break is used more but its still only so potent and its also effective by landing lag and down B cant kill until normal Brawl percents.

I think MK- should be left alone until he gives legit reason to be nerfed...again.
 

Sterowent

Smash Ace
Joined
Mar 10, 2008
Messages
648
Location
Southgate, MI
fair enough. it seems like the gun's been jumped to me too, but it's hard to stay away from the topic when there are so few MK+ players (and how little is heard of them). really, all it takes is one hit to start a combo (with a comboing move), and fair/ftilt are those moves. so, people are worried with how much control MK still has.

how's this? is there any way to lower his range, but not overall? as in, vertical moves (uair, dair) and horizontal moves (fair, bair, dtilt, ftilt kinda) can be 'shaven' off some range? make them more narrow so MK can't gimp people with his dair's side hitboxes.

if a nerf is necessary, this doesn't seem so bad.
 

GHNeko

Sega Stockholm Syndrome.
Joined
Aug 13, 2007
Messages
20,009
Location
テキサス、アメリカ
NNID
GHNeko
When it's necessary, then WBR will know what to do. Fair's range has already been shortened IIRC. Dair has been nerfed as well. Dtilt is nerfed. Only moves that have been left alone are Nair, ftilt, uair, uair, bair, and glair, in terms of non-B moves.
 

CountKaiser

Smash Lord
Joined
Jan 16, 2009
Messages
1,370
Location
In space
Well, when PZ comes out, we can modify weights.

We could make MK legitimately lighter while keeping his gravities the same.
 

Jimbo_G

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Mar 11, 2008
Messages
169
Location
Murfreesboro, TN
3DS FC
0920-1016-4491
There are FOUR things that bother me greatly about Meta Knight. If these moves are toned down to a manageable level, I firmly believe Meta Knight will become a more balanced character that takes some learning to use effectively. Those moves are:

(1.) Up-Air- This move is insane with how hard it is to avoid. Very few moves last long enough to hit someone out of an Air-Dodge, and even fewer can be spammed so easily that it even doesn't matter whether you successfully Air-Dodge or not. I think this move should be identical to his Down-Air in terms of lag and range. Doing so would make his combo game more manageable for the opponent and require better timing to land properly instead of spamming it incessantly .

(2.) Down-Tilt- This move contains the same issue as the first one; it completely destroys the shield and Spot-Dodge mechanic. Even if you successfully Spot-Dodge or shield this attack it can be spammed so fast it doesn't matter. You will either be hit out of a Dodge or continue to have your shield poked. Your only option is Backwards-Roll (a Forward-Roll gives him an easy Down-Smash) which gives Meta Knight an almost guaranteed Grab due to his run speed. I think this move should be slowed down, not so the opponent can get a free hit, but so he can at least jump out or back away to moderate safety.

(3.) Down-Smash- Ahh yes, you were waiting for me to bring this one up, weren't you? Honestly, I don't care that it comes out almost instantly, hits both directions within frames of each other, or has a lot of Shield-Stun. What bothers me is that, just like his Down-Tilt, there's no safe way to deal with this move. As a golden rule I generally believe that Smash-Attacks are high-reward, high-risk moves that should be used with caution, but Meta Knight's Down-Smash has nearly zero risk while getting lots of reward. If you dodge it, he can throw out another one while you're in your dodge recovery frames. If you shield it, you get considerably stun, and if you roll, free grab for Meta Knight. I was willing to give his Down-Tilt the benefit of the doubt, but this is a Smash-Attack. If you block/dodge it, you should AT LEAST be able to grab Meta Knight out of it.

(4.) Glide Attack- This one (surprisingly) bothers me the most of them all. I can accept the fact that his Glide Attack is eye-blinkingly fast. That's cool; he is Meta Knight after-all. What's wrong with this move is he has ZERO lag out of this move when he lands after using it. If you block it Meta Knight gets a near guaranteed grab on you, or an instant Down-Smash the moment he lands. Combined with his Shuttle Loop, lagless Glide Attack and instant Down-Smash upon landing, you're looking at an almost 50% shield loss before you even have time to blink. That is too-safe of a combination of attacks for me to simply ignore. When he uses his Glide-Attack he should fall on his face and skid 2 feet across the ground like he does when he doesn't attack; not the other way around.

Thank you for reading my entire post. I just want to inform you that these are not nerfs I'm demanding you implement immediately, but rather things too look at if you ever decide Meta Knight needs some cooling down. With these changes you do not have to worry about changing damage or other variables, but rather making a character less about spam and more about choosing attacks wisely, like the rest of the 30+ characters. =3
 

timothyung

Smash Ace
Joined
Feb 3, 2008
Messages
948
Location
Hong Kong
But....if you change too much of those, he's not MK anymore. MK should be very nonpunishable, but lacks killing power a lot, and relies on gimping. Dsmash was dropped to 80% speed before, but it was taken out to save lines. Re-adding it should be OK, but we can look it another way. Drop its damage maybe? Like from 16% to 13-14%, compensate KB. Less shield stun makes it a bit more punishable.
 

Jimbo_G

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Mar 11, 2008
Messages
169
Location
Murfreesboro, TN
3DS FC
0920-1016-4491
But....if you change too much of those, he's not MK anymore. MK should be very nonpunishable, but lacks killing power a lot, and relies on gimping. Dsmash was dropped to 80% speed before, but it was taken out to save lines. Re-adding it should be OK, but we can look it another way. Drop its damage maybe? Like from 16% to 13-14%, compensate KB. Less shield stun makes it a bit more punishable.
Five jumps, two glides, and killer pressure game? He's still going to be Meta Knight. Just not a spammy, pick-up-and-win Meta Knight.

Also, Meta Knight doesn't kill as low as everyone likes to believe. Wolf has about the same kill potential as Meta Knight (although maybe slightly higher) yet does not possess the ground game, air game, gimp game, recovery, or plethora of little lag/ nonpunishable attacks Meta Knight has at his disposal.
 

cAm8ooo

Smash Lord
Joined
Dec 22, 2005
Messages
1,059
Location
Kentucky
@systalis- Your changes dont balance him. They wreck his character.

Dsmash-Who said all smashes had to be slow or punishable (cough ROB)? Besides, remember that this isnt a killing move anymore. It's main purpose is now a GTFO move and it does great to serve it's purpose.

Gair- What you propose for this would totally wreck the move. Adding that much lag on it would make it the most easily punishable move in the game. It's so easily telegraphed before hand. I dont know about brawl+ with the added shieldstun but in vbrawl you could easily avoid any damage from the gair>dsmash combo while retaining good shield. Just power shield and dodge accordingly.

MK's a fast, in your face type character who should be applying massive amounts of shield pressure and trying to force you offstage for the gimp and that's currently what he's doing.

I agree with Neko, lets just wait it out and see what MK+ mains can do. With bad matchups, and characters on equal footing Mk isn't the dominate monster he use to be but is now very beatable. After some more play time we can discuss some more nerfs.
 

Revven

FrankerZ
Joined
Apr 27, 2006
Messages
7,550
Location
Cleveland, Ohio
There's hardly any shieldstun when MK Gairs your shield. I tested it way back when on 1/4 speed in Training. I had Bowser hold his shield while MK did Shuttle Loop and then Gair the shield, when he would Gair it before MK could even hit Dsmash, Bowser can roll away or let go of his shield. It's not a matter of "too much shieldstun", it's the fact that people just aren't trying to pull away from MK after he Gairs your shield because they think it does have a lot of shieldstun when it actually doesn't.

The only moves of MK that actually deal a lot of shieldstun, from my playtime against my friend SFG when he did play + with me, Nair, Dtilt, Fsmash, and Dsmash all dealt a lot of shieldstun. Nair and Dtilt were the most troublesome though because if I let go of my shield, it was a free KO/grab for him.

So really, when you say MK can pressure shields like a mofo, he can only really do that if he's real close up to your shield or uses one of the four moves he has that do actually have a lot of shieldstun on them compared to his other moves.
 

Roxas215

Smash Lord
Joined
Dec 21, 2008
Messages
1,882
Location
The World That Never Was
There are FOUR things that bother me greatly about Meta Knight. If these moves are toned down to a manageable level, I firmly believe Meta Knight will become a more balanced character that takes some learning to use effectively. Those moves are:

(1.) Up-Air- This move is insane with how hard it is to avoid. Very few moves last long enough to hit someone out of an Air-Dodge, and even fewer can be spammed so easily that it even doesn't matter whether you successfully Air-Dodge or not. I think this move should be identical to his Down-Air in terms of lag and range. Doing so would make his combo game more manageable for the opponent and require better timing to land properly instead of spamming it incessantly .

(2.) Down-Tilt- This move contains the same issue as the first one; it completely destroys the shield and Spot-Dodge mechanic. Even if you successfully Spot-Dodge or shield this attack it can be spammed so fast it doesn't matter. You will either be hit out of a Dodge or continue to have your shield poked. Your only option is Backwards-Roll (a Forward-Roll gives him an easy Down-Smash) which gives Meta Knight an almost guaranteed Grab due to his run speed. I think this move should be slowed down, not so the opponent can get a free hit, but so he can at least jump out or back away to moderate safety.

(3.) Down-Smash- Ahh yes, you were waiting for me to bring this one up, weren't you? Honestly, I don't care that it comes out almost instantly, hits both directions within frames of each other, or has a lot of Shield-Stun. What bothers me is that, just like his Down-Tilt, there's no safe way to deal with this move. As a golden rule I generally believe that Smash-Attacks are high-reward, high-risk moves that should be used with caution, but Meta Knight's Down-Smash has nearly zero risk while getting lots of reward. If you dodge it, he can throw out another one while you're in your dodge recovery frames. If you shield it, you get considerably stun, and if you roll, free grab for Meta Knight. I was willing to give his Down-Tilt the benefit of the doubt, but this is a Smash-Attack. If you block/dodge it, you should AT LEAST be able to grab Meta Knight out of it.

(4.) Glide Attack- This one (surprisingly) bothers me the most of them all. I can accept the fact that his Glide Attack is eye-blinkingly fast. That's cool; he is Meta Knight after-all. What's wrong with this move is he has ZERO lag out of this move when he lands after using it. If you block it Meta Knight gets a near guaranteed grab on you, or an instant Down-Smash the moment he lands. Combined with his Shuttle Loop, lagless Glide Attack and instant Down-Smash upon landing, you're looking at an almost 50% shield loss before you even have time to blink. That is too-safe of a combination of attacks for me to simply ignore. When he uses his Glide-Attack he should fall on his face and skid 2 feet across the ground like he does when he doesn't attack; not the other way around.

Thank you for reading my entire post. I just want to inform you that these are not nerfs I'm demanding you implement immediately, but rather things too look at if you ever decide Meta Knight needs some cooling down. With these changes you do not have to worry about changing damage or other variables, but rather making a character less about spam and more about choosing attacks wisely, like the rest of the 30+ characters. =3
TL,DR version-This is my proposal on how to wreck mk.




Seriously i hate mk as much and probably even more then anybody(mk completely ***** peach) But what your suggesting would tottaly wreck mk. Mk is a noob char. Anyone can pick him up and do fairly well with him. He has a very easy learning curve. Is it gay? Yea. But still you shouldn't tamper with it as it will upset the many mk mains. Mk already got nerfed to hell. His weight is a legit flaw now thanks to hitstun. Do u still have to severely outplay a mk? Yes. But he's not nearly as broken as he once was. Imo i think zss ***** mk in b+. Also mk isn't the only spammy char. Have u seen a oli in brawl+?
 

GHNeko

Sega Stockholm Syndrome.
Joined
Aug 13, 2007
Messages
20,009
Location
テキサス、アメリカ
NNID
GHNeko
MK uair? Lol. He can only do this pretty much straight up. Curve to the left and he either misses uair or has to use another move to hit. Also, FF THEN airdodge. GG, you dodged rising uair.

Lol dtilt can't be spammed as well. So that's lol.

Dsmash? I can't remember the last time I killed with Dsmash. lmao.

Gair? lol predictable. lrn2powershield or just get out of the way.

One thing that we all know right now is MK's metagame, even if we dont main him, and because he's nothing but a nerfed version with no buffs at all of Brawl MK, his tactics are even easier to deal with, though some-what different.

MK- is balanced until proven otherwise. :V

k? k.

Next topic please.
 

VietGeek

Smash Hero
Joined
Mar 19, 2008
Messages
8,133
No one knows if MK is broke or not because almost no one uses MK extensively in B+. right now all we're doing is playing theory fighting...which MK DOES NOT APPROVE OF. =V

When B+ hits gold we may see a lot of tactics that were otherwise ignored or not dominating during the beta stages cuz you know...some people are waiting to play the "final" version. These same people may take gay to the next level.

That or spamerer needs to purposely play MK and get recorded...

quick someone throw a B+ tournament with BIG CASH on the line. =V
 

Yingyay

Smash Ace
Joined
Dec 4, 2008
Messages
693
No one knows if MK is broke or not because almost no one uses MK extensively in B+. right now all we're doing is playing theory fighting...which MK DOES NOT APPROVE OF. =V

When B+ hits gold we may see a lot of tactics that were otherwise ignored or not dominating during the beta stages cuz you know...some people are waiting to play the "final" version. These same people may take gay to the next level.

That or spamerer needs to purposely play MK and get recorded...

quick someone throw a B+ tournament with BIG CASH on the line. =V
I'll throw one at your house winner gets 5 dollars for trasportation.
 

GHNeko

Sega Stockholm Syndrome.
Joined
Aug 13, 2007
Messages
20,009
Location
テキサス、アメリカ
NNID
GHNeko
There's almost no really good reason as to why anyone should play MK- in Brawl+

He's gotten absolutely no gains from the transition that is unique to him (which shuts down the combos reason)

Every character has at least gotten a single buff (even Marth and Snake), except MK. Both intentional nerfs and unintentional (IIRC, we never intended to give Side B and Down B hard ending lag but there were no objections to those moves getting hit alongside Up B and Neutral B because it was an all or nothing thing due to all B moves being recovery moves and having the same hard landing animation.)

The only reason why someone would play MK- is simply to cover match ups or because you like MK and thats about it. :V
 

WheelOfFish

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jul 8, 2009
Messages
387
Going back to the Yoshi buffs, I'm not really sure if he needs many more buffs. He's certainly not easy to play, but I don't think that he's supposed to be... and honestly, in the right hands, he's great as is.
 

GuruKid

Smash Ace
Joined
Sep 14, 2007
Messages
875
Location
Brooklyn, NY
There's almost no really good reason as to why anyone should play MK- in Brawl+

He's gotten absolutely no gains from the transition that is unique to him (which shuts down the combos reason)

Every character has at least gotten a single buff (even Marth and Snake), except MK. Both intentional nerfs and unintentional (IIRC, we never intended to give Side B and Down B hard ending lag but there were no objections to those moves getting hit alongside Up B and Neutral B because it was an all or nothing thing due to all B moves being recovery moves and having the same hard landing animation.)

The only reason why someone would play MK- is simply to cover match ups or because you like MK and thats about it. :V
Not to be rude or anythang, but...

When Blackanese consistently 2 (and maybe 3) -stocks you at LLHS, I'm sure you'll believe otherwise. :p
 

Roxas215

Smash Lord
Joined
Dec 21, 2008
Messages
1,882
Location
The World That Never Was
Im up for mm alot of people at llhs(if i can make it)

About mk like i said i hate him the worst out of everyone and i still firmly believe he is top 5. But all the suggestions here just over nerf him. Fact is like kuga said mk moveset alone makes him top tier. Nothing u can do about it.
 

WheelOfFish

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jul 8, 2009
Messages
387
I've noticed that thunder jolt gives heavy weights (and characters heavily effected by hitstun) a hellish time recovering. Because of it's ground hugging properties and its current speed, thunder jolt spam is obnoxiously good at edge-guarding if the character is below the edge and close to the stage. But then again, it could just be that I shouldn't be playing Bowser, Wolf, or Ganon against a Pikachu, hahah.
 

camelot

Smash Ace
Joined
Feb 28, 2009
Messages
597
Location
Northfield, MN
Quick question, when SA is released, are you going to remove the transcending priority on some of MK's attacks? Just wondering.
 

Alphatron

Smash Champion
Joined
Aug 5, 2008
Messages
2,269
Zelda's din's fire should get bomb like properties so that it doesn't clank with aerials anymore. That way, MK can keep his transcending priority, but won't be able to fair through Din's.

This makes a lot of sense and totally isn't a buff or nerf in any way. Seriously. >____>
 

weinzey

Smash Apprentice
Joined
May 2, 2009
Messages
176
speaking of zelda, her recovery got a little overbuffed imo. it's impossible to punish on reaction. And since it travels a large distance and zelda is invulnerable during it, it's a pretty good and reiable recovery. Her recovery is meant to be her weakness tough or am i missing something?
maybe 125% winddown would be worth a try.
 

JCaesar

Smash Hero
Joined
May 28, 2004
Messages
9,657
Location
Project MD
NNID
JCaesar
Zelda's din's fire should get bomb like properties so that it doesn't clank with aerials anymore. That way, MK can keep his transcending priority, but won't be able to fair through Din's.

This makes a lot of sense and totally isn't a buff or nerf in any way. Seriously. >____>
wtf are you talking about? That is quite obviously a buff to Zelda. Making a move work better = a buff.

It also has no effect on MK's transcendent priority in his 37 other matchups.

speaking of zelda, her recovery got a little overbuffed imo. it's impossible to punish on reaction. And since it travels a large distance and zelda is invulnerable during it, it's a pretty good and reiable recovery. Her recovery is meant to be her weakness tough or am i missing something?
maybe 125% winddown would be worth a try.
If you space yourself right, you can punish it out-of-shield 100% of the time. It's not OP at all.
 

weinzey

Smash Apprentice
Joined
May 2, 2009
Messages
176
y, but it's still a guessing game, since she can choose between going directly to the ledge or land onstage, and u cant cover both at the same time.
 

Alphatron

Smash Champion
Joined
Aug 5, 2008
Messages
2,269
No JCeasar, it wouldn't be a buff. If anything it would be a nerf...because...stuff...

To be honest, I'm a bit surprised that I was taken remotely seriously on that post. Though I'd definitely like to see a hitbox reduction in exchange for it no longer having a hurtbox or the ability to be absorbed by psi magnet. That's my own beef from fighting too many Ness/GaW mains in vbrawl though.
 

JCaesar

Smash Hero
Joined
May 28, 2004
Messages
9,657
Location
Project MD
NNID
JCaesar
@ weinzey: If you read them correctly, you get rewarded. If you don't, they make it back. That's how it should be.
 

Plum

Has never eaten a plum.
Premium
Joined
Jun 28, 2008
Messages
3,458
Location
Rochester, NY
y, but it's still a guessing game, since she can choose between going directly to the ledge or land onstage, and u cant cover both at the same time.
Well some characters can...
Just look at Snake.
He can cover the edge, the air, below the stage, and any number of spots on the stage itself.
Usmash mortars, two grenades, Nikita, C4 and Dsmash mine = Snake can punish you no matter where you try to recover :laugh:

You can't punish Zelda's recovery on reaction as hard as you could in vBrawl but you still can. Just not with something like a smash attack anymore. Though a little prediction means you will eventually land that smash attack if you have it waiting for her on FW exit.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top Bottom