Brawl+ - Official 5.0 RC1 Build is now online! (Re-Use Autoupdater, Snake bug fixed)

[timothyung]

Why must it be "no place"? I thought it was simply the previous codes being undesirable due to everyone getting Luigi dashes and MAD just not being good vs. BAD.

When we have the proper codes we might be starting a Melee 2.0 project instead.

 

[Shadic]

Why must it be "no place"? I thought it was simply the previous codes being undesirable due to everyone getting Luigi dashes and MAD just not being good vs. BAD.

Because we don't want it in Brawl+. At all.

 

[Epic Kovumon]

[/indent]Do I need to learn how to wavedash to play Brawl+?

NO. BRAWL+ ≠ WAVEDASHING
First of all, Brawl+'s goal never included wavedashing. It never did, and it never will. There are those who play with wavedashing, but the majority of people who play brawl+ DO NOT USE IT. This doesn't mean you shouldn't try it. The beauty of Brawl+ is that despite the prospect of a tourney scene, you can play the game however way you wish. The BrawlPlusery does not support it, and probably never, ever will.
​

No wavedashing.​

 

[smash brawl player 99021]

It's for people like me who suck at melee and have little slow thumbs ;D

 

[CountKaiser]

Not really, it's just superfluous to have in brawl+. It doesn't fit in well with the way brawl+ works, requires a very drastic change to the AD, and would simply be another way to space, which brawl+ doesn't need.

 

[XSilvenX]

Yeah there were actually quite a few amazing Melee players who rarely if ever wavedashed. Aniki(***) and Bum comes to mind.

Helped show that it's wasn't exactly "necessary" at high level play as most people at the time thought.

-edit lmao @ them censoring "JAPanese".

-200 Smashboards....

 

[GHNeko]

I'd like to note that if you're getting utilt -> grab, then you will also be able to utilt -> utilt, at least at certain percentages. There's no way around it. In fact, if you can't already do utilt -> grab, then making that work would probably make utilt chains even more prominent, unless the utilt were given fairly large growth so this stuff would only work at low percents, but that would make it less useful at high percents, as well.

I know that. It's common sense. I don't want to completely remove Utilt > Utilt. I'm trying to make it less prevalient ie less likely by making it so that it combo's into itself LESS and allows Mario better opportunity to do Utilt > ____ more often and easier, which is possible. :V

 

[kupo15]

Yeah there were actually quite a few amazing Melee players who rarely if ever wavedashed. Aniki(***) and Bum comes to mind.

Helped show that it's wasn't exactly "necessary" at high level play as most people at the time thought.

Its necessary depending on the character you play. Some characters have a better wavedash than others and a more useful wavedash than others.

Wavedashing doesn't work in brawl because there is no special landing animation

 

[thesage]

What glitches happened with the Ness djc code?

 

[Dark Sonic]

It's for people like me who suck at melee and have little slow thumbs ;D

Wavedashing is not hard by any stretch of the imagination <_<. It's pressing two buttons simultaneously (technically, shield is pressed AFTER jump, but the mere fact that shield is a trigger while jumping is a button will cause enough delay for it to work).

It's not in because we really just don't need it. Sure it's another form of movement, but....you can also just learn to pivot to get the same results (with pivoting being much harder to master ).

Instant landing (the thing that you can do on moving platforms by doing an aerial as you pass through them to land on the platform immediately), is something we might wish to expand upon, but that's as far as general movement techs are gonna go (even that would probably take a lot of work to make and may not be included anyway).

 

[leafbarrett]

*consider message removed except I don't see a remove option*

 

[CountKaiser]

What glitches happened with the Ness djc code?

It had invincibility frames, and you could tech it.

 

[Alphatron]

There's a glitch with Luigi's mansion. If players 3 and 4 are pokemon trainer then the pokemon freeze when the match starts. They get knocked out of it if you hit them but it is still pretty silly.

Also, let's say the mansion was kept in. Would it be possible to decrease its HP, making it easier to break?

Furthermore, how is damage reduction looking on stale moves? Or something that discourages spamming like the last two smash games?

 

[camelot]

Concerning Luigi's Mansion...

Does slowing the speed of the stage (i.e. half normal speed) also slow the respawn times?

I think it would be something to consider... I'm sure I'm not the only one that thinks Deadlands just feels like another Final Destination. The mansion was unique to the stage, and I really don't think there was a real problem with it, other than the respawn times. Some complain about the actual layout of the mansion, but you can always bust it down it if you don't want it there.

------------------

This also brings me to something else about frozen stages. The frozen stages are all just "homogenized". Sure, they have slightly different layouts, and obviously different graphics, but what about the stage builder? There's already a custom stage thread, and stages made there that could definitely be tourney legal.

Also also, some stages are banned because of certain obstacles or hazards. I can see why something like 75m is banned (completely random layout, ladders, walkoffs, hazards), but what about... Pokemon Stadium 2? Stages like that are considered to have some "luck" factor that can interfere with the fight, and I somewhat agree, but those obstacles also take skill to get around, avoid, and adjust to. Heck, none of the transformations in PS2 can even hurt you, they just alter the physics and move the platforms around a bit. Taking skill, though, you can overcome the transformations. I think freezing the stage is a lazy way of "fixing" the stage (which I personally don't think had anything wrong with it in the first place).

At the very least, could someone please explain what's so wrong about those PS2 transformations?

 

[Revven]

It differentiates PS2 from PS1 and PS2 happens to be the more annoying of the two with the transformations. It's a fine stage to freeze simply because of the fact that if we froze PS1 we'd still be stuck with terrible edges and pretty close blastzones. For the most part, PS2 being in its neutral phase all the time benefits the game rather than the annoying way the "obstacles" were built. As it is, we needed another good neutral that was different from YI, BF, FD, and SV, PS2 fit the bill quite nicely and so did WW.

Not gonna get into Custom Stages part as, that depends on the community wanting to PUSH it. And if there isn't an overwhelming amount of people pushing it yet (which there isn't, I don't see 50+ pages in that custom stage pack thread yet) then it's not worth discussing in the validity of including custom stages if the majority don't care for them or want them. While it has good reception so far, there are bugs with a few of them (which afaik are being worked on) but the WBR just does not discuss custom stages (yet anyway) because there's still little things we need to fix with the current stages (Aero Dive and PS1's windmill come to mind). It is silly at this point to look at something seriously when there isn't a whole bunch of people (and I mean a lot) that are behind the idea of including GOOD custom stages into the game.

 

[iLink]

This also brings me to something else about frozen stages. The frozen stages are all just "homogenized". Sure, they have slightly different layouts, and obviously different graphics, but what about the stage builder? There's already a custom stage thread, and stages made there that could definitely be tourney legal.

Ummm... no....

Custom stages aren't used because the stages that are already in the game have been familiarized by players. Playing on a new stage would require you to consider new tactics on the spot and kinda throws CP's out the window if every tourny used a different set of custom stages.

 

[Plum]

Ummm... no....

Custom stages aren't used because the stages that are already in the game have been familiarized by players. Playing on a new stage would require you to consider new tactics on the spot and kinda throws CP's out the window if every tourny used a different set of custom stages.

If there was a standardized stage pack included with the codesets, then there would be no problem.

The ability to use the stage builder to its full potential (removing limits of where they can be placed, and how many pieces) really gives the option to make some great stages. Downloading the stage pack here, and going out to make some actually playable stages myself is a HUGE refresher after playing the same stages for so long. I'm sure that experience would be pretty mutual across the board, and once all the problems with custom stages can be worked out then I would love to see them pushed to be officially included in B+. Stretching the blocks (through Gecko to get specific lengths) opens up for more possibilities, and the lack of restrictions on the stage builder actually allows the stages to look visually appealing at the same time. The real problem right now that I see is the edges not behaving properly, particularly for tethers.

If everyone knew exactly what custom stages were tournament legal, considered neutral or CP, then there is problem in asking people to learn these stages. It's not like ANY custom stage would be usable. The thing I like most is that it allows you access to new experiences with objects you just don't ever see in the Brawl stages. So take the absolute best custom stages, proven to have no glitches or issues, and make them legal I say. Just wait until issues are settled, and until more pressing matters are worked out in B+'s balancing.

 

[Jimbo_G]

I've played around with those Stage Packs they have and I have to say I don't really like them. They're simply too big and I don't think there's a way to modify the borders right now. When my friends tried them, our matches took considerably longer than Standard Stage matches because we ended up bouncing each other across the stages at 180+ percentage for extended periods of time.

 

[Swordplay]

I would be in favor of turning slowing down respawn time for mansion instead of deadlands...


However, I would also want the mansion to break easier, IE, it takes less damage to break it....

 

[gnosis]

Not really, it's just superfluous to have in brawl+. It doesn't fit in well with the way brawl+ works, requires a very drastic change to the AD, and would simply be another way to space, which brawl+ doesn't need.

If it's too hard to program and get working right that's one thing, but the technique itself is like a gift from the smash gods. There's literally no reason to not like all the options wavedashing and wavelanding give you. The platform game especially feels completely neutered without it.

I understand Brawl+ has kinda 'moved on' from MAD and all the stuff that goes along with it, and I don't mean to drag it up again, but seeing these kind of blatant misunderstandings doesn't sit well with me. There's -nothing- in Brawl+ that does what wavedashing/landing do well enough to call it superfluous; most of the technique's functionality is completely novel.

It's a shame something couldn't be worked out. I think 'nair' airdodging being BAD-style and directional airdodging being MAD-style would've made Brawl+ amaaaaazing.

 

[CountKaiser]

The platform game would be neutered with wavedashing, because platforms in brawl are naturally sticky. You wouldn't be able to wavedash off of them.

 

[gnosis]

The platform game would be neutered with wavedashing, because platforms in brawl are naturally sticky. You wouldn't be able to wavedash off of them.

Wait so because you can't wavedash off of them, wavedashing neuters them further?? Or are you saying they'd still be neutered?

Anyway, MAD doesn't work for a variety of reasons, but as long as we're talking about theoretical ideal Brawl+, then hey, just reprogram the platforms to get rid of that right? And add in another landing animation, and fix the physics to balance the lengths/speeds, etc. etc. I understand MAD doesn't work, I just wish it could and don't get the hate on it beyond its difficulty of implementing.

 

[Rudra]

I'm all for a waveland of some sort (through FFing maybe) if WDing affecting BAD is the case. I agree that the platforms would have to be fixed though.

 

[GPDP]

And now for something a little different.

Since we'll be getting individual hitstun and individual move gravity codes soon, I think we'll have almost all the character balancing tools we need. Save for one, that is: a character weight modifier code.

Currently, the only way to modify a character's weight is through dgrav changes, which make a character fall faster and weigh more, thus increasing a character's dgrav essentially increases their weight. And the more a character weighs, the longer it takes to KO them.

Problem is, as it stands, character weights are not exactly balanced. Does it make sense to anyone that Fox dies later than Bowser at the top and to the sides (obviously not at the bottom, given his great falling speed)?

At the moment, this discrepancy is a necessary evil because in order to correct this, we'd have to increase Bowser's dgrav, which would increase his hitsun, and make him more comboable. However, once we are able to modify his hitstun and Up B gravity settings, this would no longer be a problem. Still, I don't think we should look towards adding dgrav to Bowser as a solution, at least not very much (though he could use some, since he's way too floaty at the moment imo), since he's not supposed to be a super fast-faller like Fox or Falcon. Which is why I propose we change his weight, much like how Meta-Knight was made lighter through the old Meta-Knight's Flimsy Armor code.

Using this code, in conjunction with the gravity codes and the individual hitstun code, we can finally establish concrete weight classes, which, if I remember correctly, was one of the Plusery's foremost goals at its onset. It would help a great deal towards balancing characters, as we would be able to control how fast characters die without having to mess with their gravity values.

 

[CountKaiser]

Is it wrong for some characters to be resilient to vertical KOs?

Captain Falcon was the most Top heavy character in Melee, and he's the most top heavy in brawl+.

Being top heavy, though, makes you susceptible to horizontal KOs.

 

[GPDP]

Is it wrong for some characters to be resilient to vertical KOs?

Captain Falcon was the most Top heavy character in Melee, and he's the most top heavy in brawl+.

Being top heavy, though, makes you susceptible to horizontal KOs.

Is that because top-heavy characters tend to be fast fallers? Because if so, I already accounted for that. A weight modifier separate from dgrav could yield more weight without adding additional falling speed, unless I'm missing something crucial and the two are inextricably linked, like damage and knockback growth, and thus cannot be modified separately.

In any case, no, it's not wrong per se, and there may not be anything wrong with Fox being more top-heavy than Bowser, but my point is weight modifications could prove to be a valuable tool for further balancing. Combo monsters like Meta-Knight could be more top-light than they already are, for instance.

 

[FrozenHobo]

i was watching a B+ jiggs vid and i had a thought, what about giving her a rollout cancel? anytime while she's charging/changing directions you can press shield to cancel the rollout. i'm not really going to push this idea but i thought it would be a cool little AT. would make her a lot less predictable. again, just an idea.

 

[Arkaether]

i was watching a B+ jiggs vid and i had a thought, what about giving her a rollout cancel? anytime while she's charging/changing directions you can press shield to cancel the rollout. i'm not really going to push this idea but i thought it would be a cool little AT. would make her a lot less predictable. again, just an idea.

No. Please don't.Please don't. An idea like this is just absurd.

 

[Deleted member]

No. Please don't.Please don't. An idea like this is just absurd.

lrn2justifyreasoning

 

[Kuga]

I was thinking,what about a Meteor for her Air Rollout?
o/

 

[GHNeko]

Stlll wouldnt make the move worth using in Mid air cuz you know. you cant do anything after hitting. Its like going into helpless but worse cuz you cant eve grab the ledge.

Why? I have no ****ing clue. :V

 

[Arkaether]

Stlll wouldnt make the move worth using in Mid air cuz you know. you cant do anything after hitting. Its like going into helpless but worse cuz you cant eve grab the ledge.

Why? I have no ****ing clue. :V

Exactly. And I don't need to justify my reasoning for an idea that crazy. It's like me asking for Falcon Punch to be sped up 3x, cancelable, and do more damage, then asking others to explain why not to put it in.

 

[stingers]

Ark shows his ****ty argument skills once again :3

 

[Mattnumbers]

Exactly. And I don't need to justify my reasoning for an idea that crazy. It's like me asking for Falcon Punch to be sped up 3x, cancelable, and do more damage, then asking others to explain why not to put it in.

I don't see why you are comparing something that is ridiculously op to something that really wouldn't be a big deal at all.

Not that I support said change.

 

[GHNeko]

Just give them a reason already. :V

 

[Arkaether]

Seeing as I main jigglypuff and am one of the main spokespersons as such for the changes involved in making her balanced, I believe I am a bit more qualified to evaluate exactly how such a change would affect her than, let's see, an elitist troll and a some guy with a massive drama fetish.

And it isn't a big deal at all, except for the fact that it'd be completely useless, it's stupid, it serves no point (see: useless), it wouldn't add anything to her game, it's pointless (see: useless), and it would greatly damage the reputation of Brawl+.

Kind of like manual l-canceling.

Also guys, protip: The one that makes the points and reasonings is the guy that brings up the idea, NOT the guy that argues against it.

 

[stingers]

AND HE CONTINUES TO NOT GIVE ANY FUCKING REASONING WHATSOEVER

cle

 

[Arkaether]

Apparently someone can't even manage to learn to read, what, two paragraphs? Bravo. I believe this is why America's literacy rate is rather low.

 

[stingers]

 

[Arkaether]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_literacy_rate

Funny how one of the most technologically advanced, powerful, and self-proclaimed intelligent nations in the world is only 17th.