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[Arkaether]

the messed up order was definetly intended in order to point out the irony and btw would have nothing to do with illiteracy. and i know very well that they are referring to something else, but that's just the point: u accuse someone of not paying attention properly, while not doing it yourself either.
but dont feel offended, nobody else noticed it either. just dont take it all so serious.

So basically you're saying that you're trying to misquote me but failed doing so, so you're trying to hide your idiocy in layers of bad grammar and vague statements?

Also, you might want to try to do a better job with the condescending tone, you failed quite miserably this time. I can always give you a few pointers in trolling if you want, because you most definitely need them.

Oh, and tell Silven I said hi.

 

[weinzey]

So basically you're saying that you're trying to misquote me but failed doing so, so you're trying to hide your idiocy in layers of bad grammar and vague statements?

Also, you might want to try to do a better job with the condescending tone, you failed quite miserably this time. I can always give you a few pointers in trolling if you want, because you most definitely need them.

Oh, and tell Silven I said hi.

if they are in the wrong order how did i fail to misquote? and my (imo not so) bad grammer might result from english not being my mother tongue, but whatever.
btw, i'm not trolling so i dont need ur pro-knowledge in trolling. i was just pointing out something hilarious (at least to me) and u took it personal (fi i didnt mean to be condenscending in any way). thats also the reason why i wont answer to ur reply. bb

 

[Arkaether]

if they are in the wrong order how did i fail to misquote? and my (imo not so) bad grammer might result from english not being ur mother tongue, but whatever.
btw, i'm not trolling so i dont need ur pro-knowledge in trolling. i was just pointing out something hilarious (at least to me) and u took it personal (fi i didnt mean to be condenscending in any way). thats also the reason why i wont answer to ur reply. bb

*If
*order,
*I
*And
*imo,
*grammar
*my
*Btw
*I'm
*I
*don't
*your
*pro knowledge
*I
*you
*if
*condescending
*that's
*I
*won't
*your

Remember, the first important thing of a good troll is proper spelling and grammar.
And alongside the Hi, tell Silven he needs to get better lackeys.

 

[gnosis]

No point in trying to run away, it just makes you bad. You committed to the argument, you should see it out.

You're completely missing the fact that rollout is a completely worthless move as far as jigglypuff is concerned. Any use is highly situational and she would function fine with it completely removed. By buffing it, you are doing NOTHING to help her at all. This is a stupid patch slapped on because you want change no matter how stupid or worthless it is, without regard for how it actually affects the character.

That last sentence was hilarious. Gosh I just need change so **** badly you're right!

Anyway, theory fighter's worthless because I can think of a dozen situations to bring up where Rollout -isn't- worthless, and a dozen more situations where it's improved because you can shield cancel it, but then you'd counter why it's actually worthless there or there's something better to do, but then I'd counter how why it's not worthless and how that something better could be a bad decision for this this and this reason, and so on. We'd both feel like the other's completely misunderstanding us, and how clearly right we are.

Actual matches and their outcomes rely too much on figuring out your opponents habits and capitalizing on various mistakes that theory fighter just doesn't account for, and this sort of change works in that realm.

Here, I'll give a silly enough example. You charge rollout and release, your opponent starts charging an fsmash to hit you once you're close enough, but you just shielded! Now they're stuck charging and you can capitalize once they're forced to release. So people adapt, and learn to just smash once Puff's close enough. So instead of running into it you shield, not only shield but powershield! With such little shield stun you jump out and shfair or whatever. So there's ways to adapt to that? Well you should know that people aren't always perfectly familiar with matchups, and even if this attack has a perfect counter, you might notice your opponent's not really familiar with how to fight Puff and take advantage, thinking they'll not know enough and fall for one of your new tricks available with shield canceling.

It's like upthrow-rest in Melee. Sure, the spacie should di it and avoid it everytime, yet even really good spacies in really recent matches mess up and lose stocks that way.

 

[Arkaether]

That last sentence was hilarious. Gosh I just need change so **** badly you're right!

Anyway, theory fighter's worthless because I can think of a dozen situations to bring up where Rollout -isn't- worthless, and a dozen more situations where it's improved because you can shield cancel it, but then you'd counter why it's actually worthless there or there's something better to do, but then I'd counter how why it's not worthless and how that something better could be a bad decision for this this and this reason, and so on. We'd both feel like the other's completely misunderstanding us, and how clearly right we are.

Actual matches and their outcomes rely too much on figuring out your opponents habits and capitalizing on various mistakes that theory fighter just doesn't account for, and this sort of change works in that realm.

Here, I'll give a silly enough example. You charge rollout and release, your opponent starts charging an fsmash to hit you once you're close enough, but you just shielded! Now they're stuck charging and you can capitalize once they're forced to release. So people adapt, and learn to just smash once Puff's close enough. So instead of running into it you shield, not only shield but powershield! With such little shield stun you jump out and shfair or whatever. So there's ways to adapt to that? Well you should know that people aren't always perfectly familiar with matchups, and even if this attack has a perfect counter, you might notice your opponent's not really familiar with how to fight Puff and take advantage, thinking they'll not know enough and fall for one of your new tricks available with shield canceling.

It's like upthrow-rest in Melee. Sure, the spacie should di it and avoid it everytime, yet even really good spacies in really recent matches mess up and lose stocks that way.

Except that nobody's stupid enough to charge a smash on a charging rollout. I'd actually say you have a point, except for the fact that you don't. Because the dozen situations you can bring up are not real-world applicable, whereas the points I make are.

Even I can come up with a dozen queer situations where rollout cancel is useful. Only, wait, none of them will ever happen.

 

[gnosis]

Except that nobody's stupid enough to charge a smash on a charging rollout. I'd actually say you have a point, except for the fact that you don't. Because the dozen situations you can bring up are not real-world applicable, whereas the points I make are.

Even I can come up with a dozen queer situations where rollout cancel is useful. Only, wait, none of them will ever happen.

Not on the charging, once it's actually released. Please read my posts before responding. And what's so queer about shielding the attack used to counter rollout and attacking OoS in some way?

edit: And saying even really queer situations should never happen is really ignorant. Again, upthrow-rest should -never- happen. But it still does, a lot. So do random falcon punches, and Zelda's dthrow to bair, and Fox's uthrow to uair on Peach, and so on...

edit2: It'd also make Rollout a lot better/safer in teams. I'll admit now though, I've never even played as Puff in Brawl or Brawl+, let alone used her rollout, so maybe it's just a looot slower and weaker than Melee or something. Lol. That could put the damper on a lot of ideas I have.

 

[Arkaether]

Not on the charging, once it's actually released. Please read my posts before responding.

edit: And saying they'll never happen is really ignorant. Again, upthrow-rest should -never- happen. But it still does, a lot.

Nobody's stupid enough to charge a smash on a rollout KNOWING YOU CAN CANCEL IT.
And no, your uthrow>rest does not apply whatsoever. Because uthrow>rest is real-world applicable due to the speed and options jigglypuff holds. Assuming that your opponent is braindead and does absolutely stupid **** for no reason is not real-world applicable.

And by "never", I don't mean "absolutely never". I mean "when you're fighting anyone who isn't drunk, high, or a noob that just started the game two days ago".

 

[Skip2MaLoo]

And by "never", I don't mean "absolutely never". I mean "when you're fighting anyone who isn't drunk, high, or a noob that just started the game two days ago".

some people play better when they are high

 

[Arkaether]

some people play better when they are high

Usually, they don't. Consider the ones that do a special exception.

 

[gnosis]

Nobody's stupid enough to charge a smash on a rollout KNOWING YOU CAN CANCEL IT.
And no, your uthrow>rest does not apply whatsoever. Because uthrow>rest is real-world applicable due to the speed and options jigglypuff holds. Assuming that your opponent is braindead and does absolutely stupid **** for no reason is not real-world applicable.

And by "never", I don't mean "absolutely never". I mean "when you're fighting anyone who isn't drunk, high, or a noob that just started the game two days ago".

Already made that point my friend. Should really work on reading posts.

edit: This is why I hate theory fighter lol.

 

[Arkaether]

Already made that point my friend. Should really work on reading posts.

Do you mean "And what's so queer about shielding the attack used to counter rollout and attacking OoS in some way"?

Because if you do, you realize that nobody is seriously going to be stupid enough to allow jigglypuff to laglessly cancel rollout into shield immediately, right? The idea that you could powershield out of it immediately was simply so farfetched that I didn't even bother commenting on it.

edit2: It'd also make Rollout a lot better/safer in teams. I'll admit now though, I've never even played as Puff in Brawl or Brawl+, let alone used her rollout, so maybe it's just a looot slower and weaker than Melee or something. Lol. That could put the damper on a lot of ideas I have.

This sure gives me confidence that you know exactly what you're talking about.

 

[Mattnumbers]

Spoiler

Ark you are a horrible debater and you use bad logic.

I sincerely hope you are trolling, but I doubt it.

Anyways GoG you said you guys were close to a throw mod, is this actually true? If it is that's great! Also you guys are still planning to rerelease Ness DJC once it's fixed and are you working on fixing it?

EDIT: and no I will not argue with you, I'm going to bed

 

[Arkaether]

Spoiler

Ark you are a horrible debater and you use bad logic.

I sincerely hope you are trolling, but I doubt it.

Anyways GoG you said you guys were close to a throw mod, is this actually true? If it is that's great! Also you guys are still planning to rerelease Ness DJC once it's fixed and are you working on fixing it?

EDIT: and no I will not argue with you, I'm going to bed

Spoiler

Matt you are a horrible troll and you need to learn to do it better.

I sincerely hope you're high or drunk, but I doubt it.

And who said I was going to argue with you?

 

[gnosis]

Do you mean "And what's so queer about shielding the attack used to counter rollout and attacking OoS in some way"?

Because if you do, you realize that nobody is seriously going to be stupid enough to allow jigglypuff to laglessly cancel rollout into shield immediately, right? The idea that you could powershield out of it immediately was simply so farfetched that I didn't even bother commenting on it.



This sure gives me confidence that you know exactly what you're talking about.

Well rollout into shield cancel was what we've been talking about for the past few pages, and yes lagless was mentioned before, which is now not worthless but too good apparently. If rollout cancels into shield with a bunch of lag before the shield is what you were thinking, then yeah it's useless, no wonder you thought it was. Perhaps there's some amount of lag that's not useless or broken? That question is why I wanted to play around with it.

Again though, I don't think it's important enough for any priority or development time, so this conversation is really worthless lol. Should've ended it back when I said I would.

 

[Arkaether]

Well rollout into shield cancel was what we've been talking about for the past few pages, and yes lagless was mentioned before, which is now not worthless but too good apparently. If rollout cancels into shield with a bunch of lag before the shield is what you were thinking, then yeah it's useless, no wonder you thought it was. Perhaps there's some amount of lag that's not useless or broken? That question is why I wanted to play around with it.

Again though, I don't think it's important enough for any priority or development time, so this conversation is really worthless lol. Should've ended it back when I said I would.

It turns too good because it becomes an obscenely good approach tool that nullifies other options. If you make it so it's not completely broken, then there's still no point because rollout will still be useless. There's simply no way to make rollout good aside from completely breaking it, just as there's no way to make sing good aside from completely breaking it. See also: dtilt.

And if you don't think it's important enough for priority or development time, why are you still continuing the talk? It's evening where I'm at and nobody's on so I've got nothing better to do than camp forums, so I'm not stopping anytime soon. If you really wanna stop, just leave.

v:

 

[gnosis]

It turns too good because it becomes an obscenely good approach tool that nullifies other options. If you make it so it's not completely broken, then there's still no point because rollout will still be useless. There's simply no way to make rollout good aside from completely breaking it, just as there's no way to make sing good aside from completely breaking it. See also: dtilt.

And if you don't think it's important enough for priority or development time, why are you still continuing the talk? It's evening where I'm at and nobody's on so I've got nothing better to do than camp forums, so I'm not stopping anytime soon. If you really wanna stop, just leave.

v:

Lol, I also had nothing better to do. Can't sleep. Anyway, I think I disagree with you still, the more I think about Rollout with shield cancel the more I'm convinced a balance could be struck and it'd make for a pretty interesting move.

Basically it'd be a safe but not broken approach that requires charging and is still rather situational. Like a faster dash with hitboxes that have KO potential, but you broadcast its beginning with a charge and you can only shield out of it. There's a lot you can do against that while still giving Puff a new way to control the stage. Doing that, however, might need a whole rebalancing of the move's speed, damage, priority, charge-time, etc., and would make for a pretty drastic change to Jigglypuff, perhaps too drastic.

Basically it'd probably be more effort than I think it's worth. And it'd probably be too big of a change to her style, too big for Brawl+ at least. Maybe a new character based on Jigglypuff, like Roy to Marth? The only thing I'm really arguing is that it could be reworked to not be useless.

 

[Arkaether]

Except that what you're arguing requires COMPLETELY changing the FUNDAMENTALS of a move, and then COMPLETELY REBUILDING the character around that ONE changed move. Not only that, despite what you may think, any balance you may reach is still completely worthless for Jigglypuff because she IS NOT A GROUND CHARACTER. AT ALL. You might as well make Ganon glide or prevent mk from jumping.

I don't disagree that it's an innovative idea, but the fact remains that you are allowing your innovation to override what is already a solid and complete character. You can't completely change a character on a single whim of making a single move more "fun", especially considering that Jigglypuff already has a set, defined playstyle which does NOT incorporate your proposed rollout buff well.

And I am NOT in favor of turning jigglypuff into sonic.

 

[gnosis]

Except that what you're arguing requires COMPLETELY changing the FUNDAMENTALS of a move, and then COMPLETELY REBUILDING the character around that ONE changed move. Not only that, despite what you may think, any balance you may reach is still completely worthless for Jigglypuff because she IS NOT A GROUND CHARACTER. AT ALL. You might as well make Ganon glide or prevent mk from jumping.

I don't disagree that it's an innovative idea, but the fact remains that you are allowing your innovation to override what is already a solid and complete character. You can't completely change a character on a single whim of making a single move more "fun", especially considering that Jigglypuff already has a set, defined playstyle which does NOT incorporate your proposed rollout buff well.

And I am NOT in favor of turning jigglypuff into sonic.

Yeah, it'd be better as a new character based on Jigglypuff's moveset, like Roy and Marth or Dark Samus and Samus. It is too big of a change for Jigglypuff to still feel like Jigglypuff. What character that'd be, I dunno.

I'll admit I got carried away with going on so long about it in the Brawl+ thread, my bad.

 

[Arkaether]

It'd be interesting if that happened, though. You could look into some of the pokemon that roll a lot and are normal.

 

[gnosis]

It'd be interesting if that happened, though. You could look into some of the pokemon that roll a lot and are normal.

Donphan maybe? It'd be an ugly texture.

It's nice to have an internet debate end peacefully though, lol.

 

[Arkaether]

Donphan would be fugly, I was thinking more like miltank or something odd like that.

Internet debates end peacefully when neither side's a troll and don't take things personally. Lots of people like taking things personally, though, and start up drama.

*cough*

 

[JCaesar]

Too much Inui in this thread

 

[Arkaether]

oshi-

did he just-

 

[Alphatron]

Nobody mentioned whether or not it would be possible to decrease the HP of the mansion on Luigi's turf/area/destination #35.

 

[Sudai]

Donphan would be fugly, I was thinking more like miltank or something odd like that.

**** anything beyond 1st gen. Graveler or Golem would fit really well with the shape and moveset, just need to change the physics a **** load.

 

[Arkaether]

Golem?

From jigglypuff?

..........

 

[leafgreen386]

*cough*social thread*cough*

 

[Deleted member]

You're completely missing the fact that rollout is a completely worthless move as far as jigglypuff is concerned.

If you say so...that's why they're buffing it. LOL

Any use is highly situational and she would function fine with it completely removed.

Rollout ***** when you use it properly. The vBrawl jigglypuff main in my region uses it heavily and I believe he came 3rd at a ~125 person tournament? Fairly recently? Jigglypuff would still function "fine" without a buff to rollout but that's not a valid point, you tool. It's like saying your city would still run fine without maintenance repairs to your roads.

By buffing it, you are doing NOTHING to help her at all.

Read this:

Occasionally, "buff" is used to refer to changes introduced by a game update which make a particular class, skill, spell, or tactic stronger.

I would think that helps Jiggs. PS, most Jiggs mains (I know you're allergic to tournaments so I won't include you) use Rollout in the air and stop mid-stage. Meaning it's not used so much on the ground as it is in the air.

This is a stupid patch slapped on because you want change no matter how stupid or worthless it is, without regard for how it actually affects the character.

You haven't justified why the buff is stupid OR worthless. In fact, when you keep arguing that Rollout is a worthless move in the first place, you're making your arguments even more ridiculous. Why is a buff to a worthless move inherently worthless? And why is it stupid? Go home. Now stop posting about how I'm trolling you and back up your ****ing arguments without calling them stupid, you fallacious *****.

 

[thesage]

For the 2nd time ever, I agree 100% with delorted lol.

I noticed that G-reg uses rollout in vbrawl. It can be a useful move. Giving Jigglypuff moves that would work like Sonic's dash things would be helpful.

Whether jiggs actually needs this buff is another debate. It is not a bad idea though.

 

[Deleted member]

For the 2nd time ever, I agree 100% with delorted lol.

I noticed that G-reg uses rollout in vbrawl. It can be a useful move. Giving Jigglypuff moves that would work like Sonic's dash things would be helpful.

Whether jiggs actually needs this buff is another debate. It is not a bad idea though.

Lol thesage, when I'm not trying to pimp Ness's d-tilt, I'm sure we can get along fine.

 

[grim mouser]

The next build might have throw mod and clone engine? Or is that only a rumor? =O

 

[kupo15]

It will have a throw mod or should seeing how there has been a working throw mod for a couple of days

 

[GPDP]

It will have a throw mod or should seeing how there has been a working throw mod for a couple of days

Sweet jesus, finally.

Also, weight modifications. Again. Not gonna shut up about it until there's at least some level of discussion on the manner.

 

[Revven]

Sweet jesus, finally.

Also, weight modifications. Again. Not gonna shut up about it until there's at least some level of discussion on the manner.

My God, do you want to make Almas work even harder? As it is, he's being lazy on purpose with everything lately... don't make the poor Brit keel over!

 

[GHNeko]

Tether chars being able to regrab during hitstun / tumble should be discussed first because its character specific tech skill that everyone wants. :V

 

[CountKaiser]

Delorted, Ark stated how Rollout canceling would help Jiggs ground mobility, which seems pointless as Jiggs has no ground game and should be in the air in the first place.

Besides, the one problem Jiggs has has already been pinned down, her lack of aerial mobility. Look at Wario, then look at Jiggs. Wario can move about in the air on a dime, while Jiggs can't. Jiggs players are waiting on that to come about.

 

[slikvik]

jiggs aerial mobility isn't as good as warios because of her slow fall speed. she's actually better horizontally.

 

[GHNeko]

But overall, Wario trumps her. :V

We want her to weave just as well as him, horitontally and vertically.

 

[~tgm_Zeej]

Air grabbing by tethers isn't needed. >.>

That'd just make more people that can throw **** the spacies. xD

 

[GuruKid]

Tether chars being able to regrab during hitstun / tumble should be discussed first because its character specific tech skill that everyone wants. :V

I'm intrigued by this idea, but how exactly would it work?